kenratboy Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 ---------------- On 4/22/2005 11:23:25 AM Amy Unger wrote: Specs/pictures/descriptions are now up on the website!! ---------------- You might need to change this: "Available in a black ash vinyl finish with titanium accents." As you know, it is a matte black finish. So tell me, what makes this sub special? The BASH amp is awesome. The driver (from the cutaway on the box) looks pretty massive, and 300 watts RMS is pretty impressive. You guys are probably going to sell a lot of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deon Bearden Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 "Pulled a 12-incher out. I LOVE the fact the cabinet is now a rectangle (when looking from the top), looks good. MASSIVE port. Hi-end control panel (really good RCA plugs, certainly better than a $500 price point). Nice cosmetics (match the Synergy's well). Woofer looks to be very long throw." Is is. Very "Only thing I didn't like was the woofer ***LOOKED*** cheap, as in, no fancy cosmetics or anything." There is nothing 'cheap' about that woofer. I can't tell you how MANY hours I spent FEA'ing that motor structure. Working through various spiders and coils, coil former materials, etc. Then how many iterations I went through using some of the worlds most sophisticated nonlinearity measurement equipment to optimize it after the structure was designed. (Klippel) Then listening, and tweaking. The driver / enclosure / port / and tuning were ALL designed to achieve an incredible and synergistic balance. Delve DEEP, and provide IMPACT, while remaining clean. For those of you into the DIY realm, the systems are critically damped. The drivers have class leading electromotive strength, power handling, and excursion. These are NOT *One - note, or boomy* subwoofers, yet they DO belt out SERIOUS bass. We had one goal - to obliterate everything in their respective class. I can tell you definitively that we met our objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deon Bearden Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 "So tell me, what makes this sub special? The BASH amp is awesome. The driver (from the cutaway on the box) looks pretty massive, and 300 watts RMS is pretty impressive." FAR far more capable driver, with more than DOUBLE the excursion of the previous series, more than 3x the continuous power handling, enormous enclosure volume - and ports, deeper tuning, roughly 3 and 4x the true continuous power output from the amp, and on and on. Trust that there are plenty of things that make them better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 Deon: Thanks for the reply! I did NOT intend to offend you. Look at my sig, I have plenty of your toys at home, and I LOVE them. Ran the EZsetEQ thing on my Harman Kardon and played with some DVD's. So very impressive. I would take the F3's over Martin Logan Clarity's Anyway, reguardless, I had a few customers say the sub looked 'totally bada$$!!!' and it was just sitting there, not even plugged in I have no doubt this thing will crush the old one (and the old one was no slouch). When I say the woofer ***LOOKS*** (note the stars, caps lock, etc.), I am just saying if an uneducated person saw it, it does not ***LOOK*** as 'cool' as the JBL E series woofers - but I might be trading in my E250P for a SUB-12...or two I can tell you that it will take a hell of a sub to keep up with the F3's, and I am sure the new ones will. Any pictures of the driver? The cutaway on the box looked pretty cool. I am sure you have seen the woofer on the JBL's (hey, even you guys need to do product research ), but here it is anyway: http://www.pbase.com/canonken/home_theater&page=all Direct link to picture: http://www.pbase.com/canonken/image/40890861 You notice the beefy 'aluminum look' cone is just a paper cone with a smallish motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 ---------------- On 4/22/2005 12:49:31 PM Deon Bearden wrote: "So tell me, what makes this sub special? The BASH amp is awesome. The driver (from the cutaway on the box) looks pretty massive, and 300 watts RMS is pretty impressive." FAR far more capable driver, with more than DOUBLE the excursion of the previous series, more than 3x the continuous power handling, enormous enclosure volume - and ports, deeper tuning, roughly 3 and 4x the true continuous power output from the amp, and on and on. Trust that there are plenty of things that make them better ---------------- Sounds good but...when will I see and be able to purchase the Klipsch Premiere sub? This is the one I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 ---------------- On 4/22/2005 12:42:45 PM Deon Bearden wrote: For those of you into the DIY realm, the systems are critically damped. ---------------- I've usually seen " critically damped" to describe sealed enclosures... where driver Qtc = 5 (or less). These are vented... right? EBS? ---------------- On 4/22/2005 1:16:30 PM kenratboy wrote: You notice the beefy 'aluminum look' cone is just a paper cone with a smallish motor. ---------------- Ummm... think you got the wrong page or I didn't understand you reference... as that woofer isn't metalized either on it's front or back. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deon Bearden Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 ------ I've usually seen " critically damped" to describe sealed enclosures... where driver Qtc = 5 (or less). These are vented... right? EBS? ------ It's as close as a ported speaker gets to a sealed enclosure's transient perfect, Qtc .707. Not over damped, nor under damped. Enclosure size, driver compliance and Fo, box tuning all aligned such that the impedance peaks are equal in height. No it is not an extended bass shelf alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 My current sub uses a "similar" alignment (I'm not sure , but wasn't this originally referred to a B4?), as I've found EBS overrated for general use and I wouldn't want to tune a driver much below Fs. For those who aren't familiar with enclosure sizing... it basically means that the enclosure and port were optimized to produce the flattest frequency response possible. It may seem that all subs are designed that way, but in reality many are actually undersized to improve WAF (wife acceptance factor) and produce a slight bass bump in response that some people like. Others brands, which sell online, will oversize their enclosures and tune the driver lower... stretching their low frequency response. This often introduces distortions if the tuning is too low compared to the driver's resonant frequency. It's all about compromises... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmesa Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 Speaking of the size of the box. Why does SVS oversize their subwoofers? Arguably, they also happen to achieve what are known to be the deepest subwoofers. Some say the trade off is overall SPL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 ---------------- On 4/25/2005 1:50:50 PM Blackmesa wrote: Speaking of the size of the box. Why does SVS oversize their subwoofers? Arguably, they also happen to achieve what are known to be the “deepest” subwoofers. Some say the trade off is overall SPL. ---------------- Usually increasing an enclosure's volume will always help bass extension (and/or efficiency) which is a good thing... where bigger is better with subs, until your significant other sees it. To extend a woofer's bass extension in a ported enclosure, you can tune a woofer lower and correspondingly increase the enclosures volume. I think the formulas are beyond the scope of the post, but you can check them out at The Subwoofer DIY Page (as well as more advantages and disadvantages of EBS) . You will loose maximum SPL but gain extension. The real problem is when someone wants a really LOW tuning... below your driver's Fs (resonance frequency of the driver). This will force the woofer to operate in it's non-linear region and introduce distortion. Since the driver will have it's smallest excursion at tuning... it's ideally tuned at, or very close to, Fs for maximum bass extension. It's a tricky balance... Need 16Hz bass?... get some bass shakers ... When i tested my hearing, it doesn't extend below 20Hz... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 ---------------- On 4/25/2005 2:45:07 PM formica wrote: ---------------- On 4/25/2005 1:50:50 PM Blackmesa wrote: Speaking of the size of the box. Why does SVS oversize their subwoofers? Arguably, they also happen to achieve what are known to be the “deepest” subwoofers. Some say the trade off is overall SPL. ---------------- Usually increasing an enclosure's volume will always help bass extension (and/or efficiency) which is a good thing... where bigger is better with subs, until your significant other sees it. To extend a woofer's bass extension in a ported enclosure, you can tune a woofer lower and correspondingly increase the enclosures volume. I think the formulas are beyond the scope of the post, but you can check them out at The Subwoofer DIY Page (as well as more advantages and disadvantages of EBS) . You will loose maximum SPL but gain extension. The real problem is when someone wants a really LOW tuning... below your driver's Fs (resonance frequency of the driver). This will force the woofer to operate in it's non-linear region and introduce distortion. Since the driver will have it's smallest excursion at tuning... it's ideally tuned at, or very close to, Fs for maximum bass extension. It's a tricky balance... Need 16Hz bass?... get some bass shakers ... When i tested my hearing, it doesn't extend below 20Hz... Rob ---------------- Bass shakers are for pantsies. I have subs that provide me with the 16Hz,by moving air. Lots of air Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deon Bearden Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 ---------------- On 4/25/2005 1:50:50 PM Blackmesa wrote: Speaking of the size of the box. Why does SVS oversize their subwoofers? Arguably, they also happen to achieve what are known to be the deepest subwoofers. Some say the trade off is overall SPL. ---------------- Because Tom V. listened and learned very well early on. Hoffmans Iron Law is one of the things Stan M, Tom Nousaine, and I pounded into his brain he was learning subwoofer design. That and there is almost no such thing as too much port area. Remember, the larger the port area, the longer it has to be to tune to a given frequency. One of the most fundamental design principles that any speaker builder-designer-acoustic engineer learns is known as "Hoffman's Iron Law". First formulated back in the early 1960's by Anthony Hoffman (the H in KLH), Hoffman's Iron Law is a mathematical formula that was later refined by Thiele and Small. Hoffman's Iron Law states that the efficiency of a woofer system is directly proportional to its cabinet volume and the cube of its cutoff frequency (the lowest frequency it can usefully reproduce). The obvious implication is that to reduce the cutoff frequency by a factor of two, e.g. from 40 Hz to 20 Hz, while still retaining the same system efficiency, you need to increase the enclosure volume by 23=8 times! In other words, to reproduce ever lower frequencies at the same output level you need an extremely large box! Box size isn't the only variable You can use a small box by accepting a much lower efficiency. In order to retain the same sound pressure level (SPL, meaured in dB's), though, this requires both a very large amplifier and a driver that can handle a lot of power and move a lot of air (requiring high excursions). Furthermore, it must be able to do so with minimal distortion. This is exacerbated by power compression, a phenomenon where the power heating of the driver's voice coil results in a non-linear relationship (read "distortion") between the electrical power in and the acoustical power out. Another variable not often mentioned is bandwidth, the wider the bandwidth, the lower the pass band efficiency, and opposite for narrower. Band-Pass subwoofers often capitolize on this In short, Low-frequency capability, box size, and efficiency form the three key aspects of system design. To increase any of the three, you have to give up something from the other two, with box size being the most sensitive. The bottom line is the larger the enclosure, the more efficient it is, and easier it is to tune low.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Well Deon, I can certainly see how those design aspects translated to the new Synergy subs. The box is BIG (but not too big to live with for 'the masses') and the port is HUGE and VERY long (yeah, that sounds wrong ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmesa Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Deon, I greatly appreciated that post. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 ---------------- On 6/23/2004 4:01:16 PM Amy Unger wrote: Please welcome our newest moderator for the Powered Subwoofer section of the forum--Deon Bearden. He has been an Engineering Product Designer with Klipsch for the past 4.5 years, specializing in our subwoofers. ---------------- Deon... your comment about TV's DIY beginnings... kinda caught my attention as I seem to remember reading about a "Deon" who developed the HE15 driver for/with John at Styke (now Acoustic Elegance) . I never put the two together till now.... but the Stryke's world class DIY, PR based sub available thread made the pieces fit. Kinda nice knowing that it's not just a job to you... but a passion. Rob PS: I've decided to followed in ThomasW's footsteps and build an IB as soon as I can complete my room. I got 6 AE IB15 subs (±16 litres of displacement) waiting for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deon Bearden Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 ---------------- On 4/30/2005 12:26:41 AM formica wrote: Kinda nice knowing that it's not just a job to you... but a passion. Rob ---------------- Rob, It is indeed a that. And then some! I count myself one of the luckiest people on this planet. Having turned my once hobby into my profession. And yes indeed that was me. As was theBeast, and a few other things you may remember from back then. I became quiet in the DIY community when I became a professional speaker designer, for obvious reasons. But I've been here working behind the scene's over the last 5 years, bringing as much passion as I can to Subwoofers, and a few other notable speakers we sell. dB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmtnbikr Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Got the new Sub-12 in da house. Initial quick listen only at lunchtime today..but all seems nice. I will use it to replace one of my BIC H-100's if I am happy with it after giving it a good test. Got a deal on it too...$449 @ BB. It was the only one they had received so far, and it was not even out on the floor yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Deon that is very cool of you to comment on your designs and others. How do you feel about sealed enclosures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deon Bearden Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Now There's a loaded question if ever I've heard one! Straight up answer? Every design has it's advantages and disadvantages. I don't expect that's exactly what you wanted to hear though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmtnbikr Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Deon, after some initial placement tweaking and a very limited listening session last night, I am quite impressed with the Sub-12. I had a KSW-12 and was never happy with it, so I sold it on eBay and got a BIC H-100 12" which to my understanding was designed by Dr. Hsu, and also uses a digital amp, but with 150w RMS and 500w dynamic. I was happy enough with it that I got a second one for my 2-channel downstairs system. Looking at the specs on the Sub-12 led me to want to try one, and I am certainly not disappointed. I had considered the RW-12 but am happy that I held out for the new Synergy sub...IMO a great piece for the $ spent! Just one question...what are the differences in a down-firing vs. front-firing sub in terms of sound quality, etc.? Just curious as to why some are down and others are front.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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