Craig6519 Posted September 2, 2001 Share Posted September 2, 2001 I have the KSP-S6 surrounds and have just picked up a pair of KG4, I want to wires these in series to my Yamaha DSP-A1, will this cause me ant kind of problem? The S6 are 8 ohm and the KG4 are 8 ohm thanks for any tips. Craig ------------------ Klipsch KLF30 Mains Klipsch KLF-C7 Center Klipsch KSP-S6 Surrounds Klipsch KSB 1.1 Front Effects Dual SVS 20-39CS Sub's Samaon S700 Sub Amp Yamaha DSP-A1 Yamaha MDX-793 Mini disc Yamaha TX-492 Tuner Sony CDP-C701ES 5 disc Player Panasonic A110 DVD Hitachi MX6080EM Muli-system HI-FI VCR Hitachi 29" T.V. Denon DP-37F Turntable Pair of KG4's (looking for a good center) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted September 2, 2001 Share Posted September 2, 2001 your net impedance should be 4 ohms, the receiver's amplifier SHOULD be able to handle it HOWEVER check your owner's manual before you proceed. ALSO, i always get series and parallel mixed up,but if i'm right about the net resistance, your amp should be able to handle it. the amp will want to produce more power when it 'sees' a lower resistance, which may make it run warmer. also check the back of your yammy and see if it has a 8/4 ohm switch w/accompanying speaker configuration/setting diagram. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center sony strda-777ES receiver NEW! sony playstation 2! dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire surrounds and a 'teens sub coming! KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted September 2, 2001 Share Posted September 2, 2001 Craig, Two 8 Ohms in sereis will give you 16 Ohms. Connet them directly together (parallel) and you got 4 Ohms. Since these numbers ar "nominal", you really don't know what impedance you actually have though! I think I would connect them in parallel since most amps like 4 Ohms rather then 16. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lag Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 I would hook them in parallel rather than series, which would yield 4 ohms. -Most- amps and receivers will handle 4 ohms fine, but not all so check your manual first (don't worry too much about the variance in impedence - a pair of real 4 ohm speakers will have dips in impedence the same as a pair of 8 ohm speakers in parallel will; if you want to play it safe then don't turn it all the way up - leave a few dB of slack on top). As far as series go, the impedence would be 16 ohms, but I don't think series would work so well with speakers. The voltage in a series circuit decreases with each resistor (like a speaker) in the circuit so the second speaker will have less available power to drive it than the first. I think that would yield strange results, but I've never tried it and that's all speculation - try it if you want and let us know how it works. It might not sound right, but I don't think there's any harm to it - an amp that drives 8 ohms will (almost) certainly drive 16 ohms as well (since a higher impedence load is -easier- for an amp to drive). -Mike ------------------ Electronics ----------- Display: NEC LT150 Projector Screen: Da-Lite Model-B 67"x50" Screen (Matte White) DVD Player: Pioneer Elite DV-05 Decoder: Lexicon DC-2 DD/DTS/THX Equalization: AudioControl C-101 Series III (front) Amplifiers: Rotel RB-991 - 200W x 2 (front) Amplifiers: Rotel RB-993 - 200W x 3 (center/sides) Amplifiers: Adcom GFA 5500 - 200W x 2 (rear) Power Conditioner: Monster HTS 3500 Power Center Speakers -------- Front: (2x) Klipsch KLF-30 (black satin finish) Center: Klipsch KLF-C7 (black satin finish) Side: (2x) Klipsch RB-5 (medium oak) Rear: (2x) Klipsch RB-5 (medium oak) Sub: Velodyne HGS-15 (black gloss) Interconnects ------------- DVD to DC-2: Generic Toslink DC-2 to EQ: AudioQuest Coral EQ to RB-991: AudioQuest Coral DC-2 to RB-993: AudioQuest Topaz (sides) DC-2 to RB-993: AudioQuest Diamondback (center) DC-2 to GFA-5500: AudioQuest Turquoise (19m of it) DC-2 to Sub: AudioQuest Diamondback Speaker Cables -------------- Front: Kimber Kable 4TC (hi) / Kimber Kable 8TC (lo) Center: Monster Cable Z3 Side: AudioQuest Type 4+ Rear: AudioQuest Slate (single bi-wire) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig6519 Posted September 3, 2001 Author Share Posted September 3, 2001 Well avman, Al k, and lag thatnks for all your advise, I've hook them up in parallel and It seems to be working fine, I initially toed the KG4 In but It just didn't sound right, I don't know how to explain It, It just seemed like the surround were too much in your face. So I know how them facing directly at the side listening position with the KSp-S6 directly above and It sounds awesome, I went out and bought two wood crates today to sit the KG4 on top of, raised them up about 10" putting the horns alot closer to ear level and It was a huge help. I then played the Eagles Hell Freezes Over (DTS) and WOW what a big difference!! I've listened to this DVD at least 25 times and the sound now with both speaks running in the rear is a lot better. All I need now is to get my SPL meter back and recheck the levels. Thanks Again Craig ------------------ Klipsch KLF30 Mains Klipsch KLF-C7 Center Klipsch KSP-S6 Surrounds Klipsch KSB 1.1 Front Effects Dual SVS 20-39CS Sub's Samaon S700 Sub Amp Yamaha DSP-A1 Yamaha MDX-793 Mini disc Yamaha TX-492 Tuner Sony CDP-C701ES 5 disc Player Panasonic A110 DVD Hitachi MX6080EM Muli-system HI-FI VCR Hitachi 29" T.V. Denon DP-37F Turntable Pair of KG4's (looking for a good center) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitricolo Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 May be I´m wrong, but I think it´s imposible to connect speakers in series. The only possible way to do it is parallel. Think about it. Bye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oosting Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 It's easy to hook them up in series. The first wire goes from the amp + to the first speaker +. The second wire goes from the first speaker - to the second speaker +. The third wire goes from the second speaker - to the amp -. If the speakers are the same model, they will receive the same voltage and product the same amount of sound. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lag Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 Yah, I suppose rigging them in series might be difficult depending on your speaker cables, but it is possible: possible terminal of the first speaker to the positive terminal on the amp, while the negative terminal of first speaker goes to the positive terminal of the second speaker, and finally the negative speaker of the second speaker goes to the negative terminal of the amp. I just can't imagine when you'd want to do it that way thought. -Mike ------------------ Electronics ----------- Display: NEC LT150 Projector w/ Da-Lite Model-B 67"x50" Scrn DVD Player: Pioneer Elite DV-05 Decoder: Lexicon DC-2 DD/DTS/THX Equalization (front): AudioControl C-101 Series III Amplifiers (front): Rotel RB-991 - 200W x 2 Amplifiers (center/sides): Rotel RB-993 - 200W x 3 Amplifiers (read): Adcom GFA 5500 - 200W x 2 Power Conditioner: Monster HTS 3500 Power Center Speakers -------- Front: (2x) Klipsch KLF-30 (black satin finish) Center: Klipsch KLF-C7 (black satin finish) Side/Rear: (4x) Klipsch RB-5 (medium oak) Sub: Velodyne HGS-15 (black gloss) Interconnects ------------- DVD to DC-2: generic Toslink Front: AudioQuest Coral Sides: AudioQuest Topaz Center/Sub: AudioQuest Diamondback Rear: AudioQuest Turquoise Speaker Cables -------------- Front: Kimber Kable 4TC (hi) / Kimber Kable 8TC (lo) Center: Monster Cable Z3 Side: AudioQuest Type 4+ Rear: AudioQuest Slate (single bi-wire) s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lag Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 quote: If the speakers are the same model, they will receive the same voltage and product the same amount of sound. *nod* You got it - that definitely is important - if they're identical speakers they will receive the same amount of power because their impedance responses will be identical. However, if they're different speakers then they will have disimilar impedance responses and thus will receive different amounts of power under real world signals. -Mike ------------------ Electronics ----------- Display: NEC LT150 Projector w/ Da-Lite Model-B 67"x50" Scrn DVD Player: Pioneer Elite DV-05 Decoder: Lexicon DC-2 DD/DTS/THX Equalization (front): AudioControl C-101 Series III Amplifiers (front): Rotel RB-991 - 200W x 2 Amplifiers (center/sides): Rotel RB-993 - 200W x 3 Amplifiers (read): Adcom GFA 5500 - 200W x 2 Power Conditioner: Monster HTS 3500 Power Center Speakers -------- Front: (2x) Klipsch KLF-30 (black satin finish) Center: Klipsch KLF-C7 (black satin finish) Side/Rear: (4x) Klipsch RB-5 (medium oak) Sub: Velodyne HGS-15 (black gloss) Interconnects ------------- DVD to DC-2: generic Toslink Front: AudioQuest Coral Sides: AudioQuest Topaz Center/Sub: AudioQuest Diamondback Rear: AudioQuest Turquoise Speaker Cables -------------- Front: Kimber Kable 4TC (hi) / Kimber Kable 8TC (lo) Center: Monster Cable Z3 Side: AudioQuest Type 4+ Rear: AudioQuest Slate (single bi-wire) s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitricolo Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 oosting, you are right, thank you for teach me! Bye Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fried Elliott Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 Hmm... I see some sloppy physics in here so just a bit of a refresher... OHM's LAW Voltage = Current x Resistance (or Impedance) V = I x R POWER Power (watts) = Voltage x Current P = V x I ---> (subst. Ohm's Law) ---> P = I^2 x R RESISTANCE IN SERIES R = R1 + R2 + R3 + ... RESISTANCE IN PARALLEL (1/R) = (1/R1) + (1/R2) + ... SERIES CONNECTION In a series circuit the current is the same through each device and the sum of the voltage sources (amplifier) is equal to the sum of the voltage "sinks" (speakers); i.e., I(amp) = I(spkr1) = I(spkr2), and V(amp) = V(spkr1) + V(spkr2) where R = R(spkr1) + R(spkr2). Lets suppose Craig hooks up one 6 ohm and one 8 ohm speaker in series to one channel of his amplifer that produces 224 watts per channel. R = 6 + 8 = 14 ohms (total circuit impedance or "load" seen by the amp). P = 224 watts = I^2 x 14 --> I^2 = (224/14) = 16 --> I = 4 amperes. If the current is the same through each device, then Ohm's law for the voltage across each speaker is: V(spkr1) = I x R(spkr1) = 4 x 6 = 24 volts V(spkr2) = I x R(spkr2) = 4 x 8 = 32 volts. So in Craig's example, when the 6 and 8 ohm speakers are hooked in series to the amplifier, the voltage across each speaker is NOT the same. Furthermore, in this case, the 6 ohm speakers are absorbing less power than the 8 ohm speakers. PARALLEL CONNECTION In a parallel circuit, the voltages across the devices are all the same and the sum of the currents "in" to any node (or device) is equal to the currents "out" of the device. Since the amplifier is the only source of current and the speakers are the "drains", we have V(amp) = V(spkr1) = V(spkr2), and I(amp) = I(spkr1) + I(spkr2) where <1/R> = <1/R(spkr1)> + <1/R(spkr2)>. Now,lets hook up a 6 and 8 ohm speaker in PARALLEL to a single channel of a 343 watt amplifier. We get (1/R) = (1/6) + (1/8) --> R = 3.43 ohms (total load seen by the amplifier). P(amp) = I(amp)^2 x R = 343 = I^2 x 3.43 --> I = 10 amperes. V(amp) = I(amp) x R = 10 x 3.43 =34.3 volts. and so V(amp) = V(spkr1) = I(spkr1) x R(spkr1) --> 34.3 = I(spkr1) x 6 --> I(spkr1) = 34.3/6 = 5.72 amperes. V(amp) = V(spkr2) = I(spkr2) x R(spkr2) --> 34.3 = I(spkr2) x 8 --> I(spkr2) = 34.3/8 = 4.29 amperes. Note that the 6 ohm speaker draws more current than the 8 ohm speaker when hooked in parallel. This makes intuitive sense. In a parallel circuit, your amp has to work harder the more devices you hook up to it, and a lower impedance device pulls more current than a device of higher impedance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 thanks for the refresher elliott, felt like i was back at trade school, but really needed the cobwebs dusted off. i first used the 'hooking up in series' thing for bose 101's (yes-bose)which people were using as rear surrounds in dolby surr/dolby pro-logic surround systems. they were rated at 6ohms, and with the weak-kneed rear channel amps in those receivers,6ohms didn't make the amps real happy, so since the signal was mono anyway,we hooked 'em up in series to bring the resistance up. solved some problems that way. btw-if you think bose 101's@6ohms is a bad rear speaker,you wouldn't believe how many 'refrigerator store' guys have sold two 'cube'speakers w/accompanying 'bass module'as a 3-piece rear pair! phew!!somethin'stinks! avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center sony strda-777ES receiver NEW! sony playstation 2! dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire surrounds and a 'teens sub coming! KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 Elliot - I always thought impedance was a measure of resistance and therefore a parallel circuit would offer two paths and therefore half the impedance of two speakers of equal impedance. On the other hand a series circuit would offer only one path thus the impedance value would add producing the results given by Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fried Elliott Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 Yes, pretty much. Impedance is the generalized concept of the loading elements of a circuit; i.e., resistors, capacitors, and inductors. The term "resistance" is loosely used, sometimes to refer to the impedance, sometimes to refer to the real number part of the impedance, and sometimes to refer to the load presented by the resistors in a curcuit. Not sure if the distinction means anything to us here. Series resistance does add. A 6 and 8 ohm speaker hooked in series presents an effective 14 ohm load. Parallel resistance adds in inverse. If, say, two 8 ohms speakers are hooked in parallel, then total resistance is 4 ohms. This is the special case example that a lot of people use. Two items of equal resistance hooked in parallel present half the resistance of either. In the case of a 6 and 8 ohm speaker, its not quite that, but 3.43 ohms. Imagine if one of the speakers was 0.0000001 ohms. Since it would be an almost direct short, you would expect the total resistance would be almost zero ohms too, which the formula would give you. Kind of neat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wired1 Posted September 6, 2001 Share Posted September 6, 2001 For simplicity..... This is how you figure impedance in a parallel circuitregarding speaker load): (R1*R2)/(R1+R2) ...And for Series... R1+R2 You just have to make sure your amp can handle a low load (2 or 1 ohms) otherwise you can blow it(Its the same as shorting the amp). If you check out the Krell Master Reference Amp, it can put out 16,000 watts at 1 ohm!!!! THATS AN AMP!!! ------------------ wired1@ameritech.net This message has been edited by wired1 on 09-06-2001 at 04:37 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fried Elliott Posted September 6, 2001 Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hey wired1! I forgot the 2 element version of the parallel connection arbitrary element formula. It is much simpler and more applicable to typical speaker setups; unless we are dealing with that future 49.7 setup I read about the other day... You might need that Krell Amp to drive those 56 speakers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted September 7, 2001 Share Posted September 7, 2001 Fried Elliot (is that a Southern American dinner?), I don't think the Krell MRA would be up to the task. Ignoring the subwoofers for a moment, which would probably be self powered anyway, and just looking at the fourty nine main speakers in the surround array: If we assume that the speakers have an average impedence of 8 ohms, and that they are a fairly benign load with a flat impedence curve (not sucking a lot of juice at low frequencies, for example), then the 49 speakers, assuming parallel connections, represent a combined load of 0.163265 ohms. If the Krell were a true voltage source, and continued to dump current into any load while increasing its power output, it would be holding about 126.5 volts across this load (using the 16,000 watts into 1 ohm as a reference point). 126.5 volts across a 0.163265 ohm load requires a current dump capability of almost 775 amps, steady state. Hummm... I don't think my local bowling alley draws that much current keeping 40 pinsetting machines running. What kind of power cord would you use? ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fried Elliott Posted September 7, 2001 Share Posted September 7, 2001 Ray --- Yeah, that baby needs more POWER! I say we rewire it!!! With 775 amps in the mains, we'll also need some cryogenic cooling equipment. And, with that kind of current, we're going to have to really bolt down those conductors. We're way past MDF and dry wall screws. Man, I'm really getting interested now! My first job was at the University or Rochester Laser Fusion facility. To flash pump the lasers, we had this massive power system that for, like 1 microsecond, dumped more power than New York City uses in a year. That was some cool stuff. This message has been edited by Fried Elliott on 09-07-2001 at 12:50 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted September 7, 2001 Share Posted September 7, 2001 hey ray g. while you're thinkin' this stuff up, who cuts your grass?? avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center sony strda-777ES receiver NEW! sony playstation 2! dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire surrounds and a 'teens sub coming! KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Craig your Yamaha DSP-A1 should have no real trouble driving a 4 ohm load.As long as the speakers dont dip to low,then the presented load could drop to below 3 ohms and then the Yamaha amps would be sweating. And Fried Elliott since you bring the huge Krell Master Reference Amp,I can tell you even my much less potent Krell FPB600 gives 600W RMS into 8 ohms,1200W RMS into 4 and a monster 2400W RMS into 2 ohms!This is per channel,both channel driven!Furthermore the big Krell has a grip and sound quality unmatched by any other amp besides the huge Mark Levinson reference,Boulder reference and Pass X1000 monoblocks. Krell also makes the superlative 650 monoblocks,650W RMS into 8 ohms,1300 and then 2600W into 2 ohms.These are a bit too expensive at $25000US/pair!.The FPB is just on the limit of ok at $13000. I love BIG amps,I have a small collection.The classic Carver TFM-75 is in it.1KW RMS per channel. And other less powerful ones like the Celeste 4250SE,at 500W RMS into 4 ohms per channel. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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