michael hurd Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I have a friend of a friend that has an Ibanez bass guitar, who wants a good amp, that will play the lowest notes with authority. To make a long story short, he would like to know if there is something that is DIY that would serve his needs. A maximum size has been established, roughly 8 cubic feet for enclosure will still be deemed portable. Where would I look for a power amp for something like this? Anyone know how much voltage an electric bass puts out? This might be something that I would like to build, provided that he has the means to pay for everything. I have looked at a few of the Eminence speakers in the Parts Express catalog, those I can get here in Ontario. I am currently looking at the Omega Pro-18, modeling it in win-isd. Any suggestions? What is the entire range of the bass guitar? I don't know if it is a 4-string, or a 5-string, but I could find that out if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I used to do sound for a band and the bassist used a Hartke bass amp and two EV TL15 bins. Each is a single 15" cabinet a little larger than a Heresy. Two stacked on their sides was about Cornwall sized. Pretty good low end and you can get the plans from EV. Takes a standard EVM-15B speaker. There is also plans for a TL-18 cabinet, each is about dorm fridge sized. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I used to do sound for a band and the bassist used a Hartke bass amp and two EV TL15 bins. Each is a single 15" cabinet a little larger than a Heresy. Two stacked on their sides was about Cornwall sized. Pretty good low end and you can get the plans from EV. Takes a standard EVM-15B speaker. There is also plans for a TL-18 cabinet, each is about dorm fridge sized. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 For a bass head, look into Gallien-Krueger, Hartke, Carvin or Trace Elliot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 So, basically, buy one of the aforementioned amp heads, and build a suitable enclosure for the woofer of choice. Well, since there are no real musical instument supply places near me ( they might consider ordering for you ), I guess ebay would be a good spot to look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 I modeled a 200 litre enclosure for the Eminence Omega Pro-18, tuned at 34 hz. This is sligly different than the EBS alignment that win-isd suggests, only raising the suggested tuning frequency slightly. 3, 4" ports just a shade under 10" long looks to be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 The appropriate amp/cabinet combination is dependent primarily upon what his use is. The lowest fundamental frequencies are: 5 string low B - 30.87Hz = 31Hz 4 string low E - 41.3 Hz = 42Hz (I know that is rounded incorrectly, but you will see it listed this way!) Again, what is appropriate depends upon what he is doing. And while I personally like the low fundamental reproduction, you will find most bass players of note have emphasized the upper harmonic content (i.e. John Entwistle with the Who, used Heil Troffs and horns for harmonic emphasis, Phil Lesh with the Dead as well (but he didn't use Troffs!), and my personal fave Jack Casady of Jefferson Airplane & Hot Tuna, (Hendrix - Electric Ladyland, etc),etc. (And you can catch him off and on this summer at Jorma Kaukonen's Fur Peace Guitar clinics). Jack combined the low growl with the upper registers that he employed in introducing a more lyrical style of bass play... Personally I like something that will reproduce and acoustic upright bass accurately - perhaps the most difficult of all instruments to capture accurately. Depending on what your friend's intended use, there are a couple of ways to go. Some are obsessed with the visceral feel on stage and depend on their amp to hear(actually feel) themselves on stage. This is the 'lowest form/level' of playing. The problem with this is that it implies excessive stage volume, little or no sound reinforcement and a venue where the gain structure is out of control - where everyone adheres to the axiom of 'mo me'. Oh, they (the bass player only) will love it. And that audience will be limited to only him. More seasoned players (and I will mention a few that we routinely played and worked with in the last 20 years simply to re-enforce that this is not simply opinion but based on real experience) - Victor Wooten (solo and Bela Fleck with his brother on syn-drum), Avery Johnson (with the Winans and w/ Whitney Houston since '92), and Davey Roe (Vern Gosdin, Johnny Cash until his death), Roy Vogt (one of those amazing bass prodigies out of North Texas State!), Dave Pomeroy, Edgar Meyer, as well as Hammond B3 players such as Moe Denham who kicked bass (on the peddles), and many others), were content to use a smaller rig that provided a rich tone. The value of this is that it was very flexible and the live auditorium volume was provided via both direct boxing on one line, combined at the board with a mic'ed feed. The tone could be created by the heterodyning of these feeds. And the other (more important) feature was that stage volume could be kept to a minimum (a BIG plus!) and the sound reinforcement would provide adequate amplification. But it requires a mature player who has transcended their own ego and felt secure to play without standing in the rarified visceral feel of the speaker volume. A rare occurrence in the field! As far as what they used as an amp - usually it was whoever was endorsing them! (Usually Trace Elliot or Carvin - And while the GK head was THE workhorse in the studio, I must admit to growing extremely fond of the Carvin products!). Personally, my favorite 'model' (as in format/style, not necessarily the brand) is the old Ampeg B15. A single optimized 15 inch driver tuned for low frequencies. Personally, I like the EV 15 and 18 inch drivers, but they also come at a cost! It is also ideal for reproducing the lowest frequencies of the acoustic bass! But budget is a real factor too! But my suggestion is to keep it simple and avoid the ego boosting monster rigs of old, appropriate when sound reinforcement was not something to count on! (Of course I still have a soft spot in my heart for the old Acoustic folded horns!!!) Additionally, I would look at a modest head. (Note the trend here!;-)) The days of needing the 200watt+ slaved Marshall, Ampeg HiWatt, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Orange heads are gone. Again, all you need is a clean feed as you can direct box and mic the one speaker. It is funny to watch the major acts, as even Billy Gibbons who always played with the STACKS of Marshalls behind him actually only had ONE live cabinet, DI'ed and mic'ed. But they LOOKED great! And regarding the amp I wouldn't worry about tube or SS. I know, I can hear the jaws of folks hitting the floor as they read this. The reason is simple! First, you are not going to drive the amp to clipping - not anywhere close. Within the linear range you are not going to tell a significant difference. And if he is using this for road use, does he want the care and feeding that go with tubes? As mentioned above the GK heads are used perhaps more then any other studio head. They are modest, clean and bulletproof. I have NEVER heard a serious player bat an eye when presented with them. That in itself is amazing! (And perhaps the ONLY piece of gear that this can be said about!! ;-) ) Instead you are going to use 'modeling' to create the various sonic signatures. Modern studio musicians no longer carry the racks and racks of effects and amps simply to get a particular sound. Oh, some MIGHT, and its fun to watch the reaction they get as they want a tech to move the gear in! But I wouldnt drink any coffee you subsequently might get from them! Instead, units such as the Sans Amp allow wave form shaping to ACCURATELY recreate any sonic signature you wish. Then all the amp need do is to CLEANLY amplify this signature. You are no longer using the distortion characteristics of the amp to create the one or two characteristic sounds; you are using the amp to amplify whatever sonic signature is appropriate for the session. There is alot more to this, and many variations, but the trends are the same. Mike, may I suggest sitting down with him and determining his short and long term goals. I am sure that you can come up with a suitable design. Your idea is right on target! And if we can help source anything for you, please let me know.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 the EV deal is a pre-designed cabinet and they will give you the exploded diagram and cut list. It has a port, which can alternately be covered to re-tune the cabinet. I think covering lowers the tuning at the cost of a couple db efficiency. These cabinets are so good that we used to use a double15 on each side of our PA stack as our upper mid cabs. I knew of a very good local band who had an entire PA made up of 18,15,12 and horn cabinets of this same type. It's a good braced cabinet of KNOWN DESIGN that is DIY. try it, you'll like it. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Don't be overly concerned with flat response down to the lowest fundamentals. Flat down to the first harmonics works well (60-80Hz), but in a ported box with the speakers resonance there, you'll see response drop off very quickly below that. Commercially available boxes tend to do that. If you can work with wood, look at www.billfitzmaurice.com I paid $800 shipped for the DR250a and Tuba 24, as I really couldn't build them myself. My 30W Ampeg B-15 is quite loud through them. A nice 100W tube head will kill for live work. Bill's cabs are light (30lbs for the 250a with a Neodymium driver), sensitive, and sound great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 DR250a: Tuba 24: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 ---------------- On 5/25/2005 2:04:39 AM dragonfyr wrote: Personally, my favorite 'model' (as in format/style, not necessarily the brand) is the old Ampeg B15. A single optimized 15 inch driver tuned for low frequencies. Personally, I like the EV 15 and 18 inch drivers, but they also come at a cost! It is also ideal for reproducing the lowest frequencies of the acoustic bass! ---------------- I read your whole post, and agree with most of it. Your comments regarding the B-15 are far from reality, though. I love my B-15, and think it's one of the best sounding bass amps ever, but one thing it cannot do well is reproduce the low frequencies necessary for acoustic bass. The 15" driver and enclosure is not optimized for low frequencies, but optimized for reasonable output from 2 6L6GC. If you don't believe me, I'll give you Jess Oliver's email address, and you can ask the guy who designed it. The tube/SS/modeling issue is a matter of taste, so I won't get in to that! Your comments regarding stage volume, tone, and ego are spot on, though. I wish more folks in the music industry would realize that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Ben, looks very similar to the dr12a and the dr15a horn featured in Audio Xpress magazine, I have that issue somewhere here. I don't know about building a horn, I think a simple ported box should suffice. However, to keep distortion to a minimum, I would suggest to him that using as large a woofer that is physically possible, will reduce the xmax requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindman Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 You might enjoy reading the following to learn more about guitar amplifiers: http://users.chariot.net.au/~gmarts The author addresses the differences between amplifiers/speakers for instruments and hi-fi's. He also has a section regarding do-it-yourself projects. There is a magazine published by Audio Amateur Publications, Inc. for people who build, modify, and repair guitar amps and effects. There are new kits for guitar amps and preamps. Also look at: http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/guitar-amp-evolution.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 ---------------- On 5/25/2005 1:58:23 PM michael hurd wrote: Ben, looks very similar to the dr12a and the dr15a horn featured in Audio Xpress magazine, I have that issue somewhere here. I don't know about building a horn, I think a simple ported box should suffice. However, to keep distortion to a minimum, I would suggest to him that using as large a woofer that is physically possible, will reduce the xmax requirements. ---------------- Michael, Those were some of Bill's earlier designs, and probably are similar. I exchanged several emails with Bill before contracting to have them built, and he recommended what he uses professionally, so that's what I had built. The 250a can be built with ducts that lower the LF cutoff to 50Hz, at the expense of some mid-bass sensitivity. The result is a 30lb small box that is a legitimate pro stage monitor for electric bass or keyboards. Bill actually monitors vocals through his rig as well, and many folks on his forum use them for PA. The build is pretty complex, though. I think going with as large a woofer as possible might not be the best approach. It would add size and weight needlessly, as well as hurt the midrange response necessary to be heard in a band setting. I see a lot of guys using 1x12"s nowadays, even. The neodymium drivers will drastically reduce weight, but are more expensive. The right neo 12" (or 2x12") would make a better and cheaper box than a 1x18", that's for sure. Response up to 5kHz is really a good thing, though the fundamentals don't go nearly that high. If using an 18", try to include a Beta6 or something for some mids. A simple first-order crossover is a good idea, too, to keep that smaller driver clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Ok, so respose up to 5khz would be a good thing, not necessary for the fundamentals, but for the harmonics, correct? Well, that changes things a little, but from the conversation, the bottom octave is what he wants to beef up. I have been looking at 15" drivers as well, but I am not sure if they will give him the bottom end he is looking for. Weight, as far as I know is not really an issue, he is in a garage band that jams at a few friends places, as long as the physical size is kept to abut 8 cu ft or so. Neodymium would certanly cut down on the weight, but also increase the cost. I guess actually sitting down with Matt would be the best bet, and go from there. But hey, thanks for the insight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 My son uses a GK 700RB head (two amps in one, to go with the biamp speaker cab), and a GK cab that has two 10s and a tweeter. The tone is excellent. The head is very light, and he has never even had the fan come on. I think he would consider it one of the best purchases he has made. Has a balanced DI built in as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Ben, perhaps you misunderstood my reference, or I wasn't as clear as I meant to be - oops!. I was not suggesting literally copying the B15 cabinet. I was refering to the 'format': A single 15 or 18 placed in an optimized sealed or reflex tuned cabinet. The reference to the classic EV cabinets are also terrific resources as well! Thanks for mentioning them! I also wouldn't advise going out and looking for an old B15 head, or heaven forbid, buying the reissue for the ungodly price they are fetching now days. (Of course if anyone happens to find one for a reasonable price, PLEASE call me!!!) Especially as you have no need to obtain that particular amp to create the sound of that amp. If he plays studio work he has NO need for the equivalent of an Ampeg SVT, and if he does live work, he doesn't need the stage volume...thats what sound reinfocement is for. And if he is simply playing for his own enjoyment, I would love to know why he needs anything more then a single 15" or 18" that reproduces the low B(31Hz) on a 5 string. My focus is on good clean sound reproducing the frequencies he will actually 'use' while spending no more then he has to (as a budget was a stated condition), in order to achieve his objectives. Besides, if he becomes good enough, he won't have to worry anyway, he can easily pick up an endorsement and they will give him the model he wants! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 ---------------- On 5/25/2005 2:04:39 AM dragonfyr wrote: , you are not going to drive the amp to clipping - not anywhere close. ] ---------------- Ever hear the band Moutain ...??? Sunn , The Big Ampeg, or Mesa ..... make yer own cab, use EV 15's by the way if you are into lifless sound, go the direct route w/ the sansamp/ Pod, V-amp ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 ---------------- On 5/25/2005 5:30:46 PM bsafirebird1969 wrote: ---------------- On 5/25/2005 2:04:39 AM dragonfyr wrote: , you are not going to drive the amp to clipping - not anywhere close. ] ---------------- Ever hear the band Moutain ...??? Sunn , The Big Ampeg, or Mesa ..... make yer own cab, use EV 15's by the way if you are into lifless sound, go the direct route w/ the sansamp/ Pod, V-amp ...... ---------------- Yep, several times in 1969 and 1970 (Live). But I am not sure of the point here. With 'modeling' I can create ANY distorted sound without EVER experiencing distortion in my amp! Not only that, but I can dial and recreate the sonic characteristics of any distortion or harmonic character regardless of its origin. I am not proposing a way that it could be done, I am stating how it is normally done now in the studio by the major studio hired guns and live with major SR sytems.... What do you think I am referring to with the Sans Amp? one of thoise little practice amps that you listen to over headphones? It certainly is NOT one of those! And if you don't think mixing a direct feed with a close mic'ed amp feed is (has!) been the norm for years both live and in the studio, you need to catch up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Dude ... i Have a Sans Amp ... for when i'm to lazy to carry my Marshall .... the Pod, V-Amp, Sans Amp ... are ok, 'till you listen close no dynamic's, no "feel" when yer playin'........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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