Craig John Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I currently have a set of Klipsch Forte's L/R and an RC-7 CC. I am thinking about replacing my Forte's. I am currently using the THX mode in my receiver, (Onkyo TX-NR 901) with all speakers set to "Small." However I have the crossover set to 60 Hz. The Forte's are certainly not "satellite" speakers like the THX spec calls for. They are rated to 32 Hz. If I were to replace them with real satellite speakers, such as the Klipsch THX speakers, I could then use the THX mode the way it was intended; with an 80 Hz crossover. So, my choices are: 1) Klipsch KL-650-THX L/C/R. This would require the purchase of 3 speakers and 2 stands, and the sale of my RC-7. 2) Klipsch KL-525-THX L/C/R. This would require the purchase of 3 speakers and 2 stands, and the sale of my RC-7. 3) Klipsch RB-75 L/R and keep my RC-7 CC. This would require the purchase of 2 (less expensive) speakers and 2 stands. All of these systems are 2-way, horn-loaded designs. They all have the same sensitivity, power handling and impedance. The 650's use 2, 6-inch drivers in a front ported design, and are flat to 48 Hz. The 525's use 2, 5.25" drivers in a sealed design and are flat to 80 Hz, (the true THX spec.) The RB-75's use 1, 8-inch driver in a front ported design and are flat to 42 Hz. The THX speakers appear to use the same tweeter driver, (a 1" (2.5cm) magnetically shielded, titanium dome compression driver with 9.6oz ceramic magnet structure), and the same 10" x 6" horns. The RB-75 has a K-50.1-DB 1.75" (4.45cm) Titanium dome compression driver with an 8" square horn. I certainly like the look of the RB-75 over the slightly over-square boxes of the THX speaker. They would also be the least expensive option. However, sound quality is more important than the looks or the price, (within reason, of course). How much would I give up, sound-quality-wise, with the RB-75's over the THX speakers? Will the THX speakers have more total volume output, i.e., play louder? Does the rectangular horn shape of the THX speakers affect the dispersion characteristics? How much would that change with the RB-75's? Can I get similar THX performance with the RB-75/RC-7 combo as with the THX product? What about LF extension? Is it better to have a speaker that has extension below the THX spec of 80 Hz? Or, does that make it harder to integrate the mains and sub? (My sub is an Earthquake Supernova MKV-15, which I don't intend to replace any time soon). The RB-75 has the lowest LF extension of the 3 speakers, but I don't know how loud it will play without distortion. I assume the THX speakers will play louder without distortion than the RB-75, but how much louder? Thanks for any insights. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 you do realize a huge difference a price right? Kinda hard to compare....based on that for me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokem Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Big difference in price. But I was wondering the same thing in comparison between the KL-525 and RF15 and KL-650 and RF25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Do you listen mostly to music or movies? Btw, just because the "THX spec" calls for "satellite" speakers doesn't mean that is the best approach to take. Really, the spec is just there for satellite owners to feel good about their systems. In most cases I've always preffered the sound of floorstanders over bookshelves (satellites) simply because they project a bigger sound. If you go with the THX lineup, then go ahead and get the 650. Everyone on this board that has purchased the 525 has later upgraded to the 650 so I would keep that in mind. The extended response of the 650 is going to lead to a much smoother crossover transition. So extension below the crossover point of 80Hz is important. One other note about the THX lineup is that the system was designed around the sole purpose of playing movies...and if the klipsch engineers aren't full of crap, then I feel you should expect the THX lineup to be the best klipsch option for movie playback. There's a guy on the forum who sells audio stuff and has had the opportunity to listen to both systems pretty much side by side and he says the THX is better for movies, but the Reference is better for music. Why are you considering getting the RB-75 instead of the RF-7 for mains? Once you get stands and all that, the price difference is much less between the two and the RF-7 simply sounds better (and it will take up the same floor space as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Reference Premier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig John Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 ---------------- you do realize a huge difference a price right? Kinda hard to compare....based on that for me..... ---------------- Yes, I realize there s a significant price differential. I mentioned it at several points in my OP. What I'm asking is, can I get very close to the THX performance with the RB-75. It seems to have a similar design philosophy, execution and specifications as the THX stuff. Are you familiar with the RB-75? Can you compare the sound quality and the absolute volume levels between it and the THX stuff? I know I like the sound quality and volume levels of my RC-7. The RB-75 is in the same "Reference" family as the RC-7. In fact, it's billed as the "bookshelf" version of the RF-7. If the RB-75 has a similar sound, I would be happy with it, as long as I can integrate it in a manner similar to a THX arrangement. Not to mention the fact that I can save some money. Thanks for any insights you can give me. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig John Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 ---------------- On 6/16/2005 12:52:54 PM DrWho wrote: Why are you considering getting the RB-75 instead of the RF-7 for mains? Once you get stands and all that, the price difference is much less between the two and the RF-7 simply sounds better (and it will take up the same floor space as well). ---------------- I am considering the RB-75's instead of the RF-7's because I currently have the Forte's which have virtually the same FR extension as the RF-7's (32 Hz), and I'm having a tough time integrating them into my THX system. They have too much response below the crossover point -- and even when they are set to small. The additive effect of the mains and the sub make it difficult to calibrate the sub. I end up with too much response above 32 Hz and not enough below that. Part of it is my room. I have a large room resonance from 45 to 60 Hz, right in the middle of the octave below the crossover. I'm thinking it will be easier to integrate and calibrate my sub if I have a more rolled off set of "satellite" main speakers. Maybe this is not a valid assumption. How are people with RF-7's setting their bass management? Large or Small? What crossover? Thanks. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig John Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 ---------------- On 6/16/2005 12:57:56 PM damonrpayne wrote: Reference Premier! ---------------- Please explain. Thanks. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Send Steve Phillips a message.... I think you will be happy with what he sais too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 The Reference Premier line of speakers is expected to come out later this year. It will be very expensive, has a 3 way design and has nicer cabinets. RF-7s can be integrated with a subwoofer. The group delay needs to be considered via distance settings, and an EQ or bass traps may be needed for the room modes. It is better to solve the bass problem this way than to buy speakers that will under perform IMO. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig John Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 I did a search for Steve Phillips but it returned no results. How do I contact him? BTW, I'm new to this forum. Who is Steve Phillips? Thanks. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Try the user name Stephen Phillips, he works in the technical department at Klipsch HQ. Let me see if I can dig up an email address for you. Here you go. support@klipsch.com He will be able to answer any questions you may have, if not he can research it and get back to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig John Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 Here is a "Secrets" article that describes the problem I am having trying to integrate my mains and sub, and the reason I don't want full range speakers for my next upgrade: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/feature-article-slope-troubles-6-2005.html Add to the described crossover problem a strong room resonance (+12 dB) from 45 to 60 Hz, and the problem is compounded significantly. In fact, even with my L/C/R's set to "Small" I still have almost flat response from the Forte's from 80 Hz down to the high 30's. (When set to "Large" I get a large peak at the resonance frequency that the filter in the crossover tames partially in "Small" mode). I end up truning the sub down to reduce the response above 40 Hz and I lose a lot of good LF stuff. I think it would be much easier to use "satellite" speakers with a rolled off LF response and then deal with the resonance by EQ'ing the sub. (I can't add bass traps because my room is finished and the WAF won't allow it.) I've e-mailed Steve Phillips and asked him to join the discussion. Hopefully he will. I couldn't find his username by doing a serach for any of the likely derivations. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 The RB-75s are rated to 42 Hz. If you want to reduce the room modes, it would probably be a good idea to consider the use of an Outlaw ICBM for bass management. You can adjust the slope of the crossover to 36 db per octave as well as the crossover point. Receivers and processors tend to use a slope of 24 db per octave. The price for the ICBM is very reasonable. It would also allow the possibility of getting the RF-7s. Board member Meuge uses an ICBM with RF-3 and a subwoofer. He likes the results. If he is not too buried with his exams, he could answer questions about the use of the ICBM. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig John Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 As near as I can tell, the ICBM is for multichannel audio (SACD and DVD-Audio) only. It doesn't work with DD, PLIIx or DTS, (non of the HT processing modes). It would be a wonderful tool if it could accept the optical digital or PCM outputs of digital audio sources. Then one could manage the bass of each channel independently. However, it only accepts and processes the individual channel outputs of mutichannel audio. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Craig, The ICBM looks like it goes between a processor and an amplifier. I am on a dial-up connection, so I did not download the manual. A receiver with pre-outs and a 2 channel amp might work well as an alternative. If the ICBM is used between a processor/receiver, then it will work on any channel set as large on the processor/receiver. The entire reference line of speakers seems to benefit from outboard amplification that handles impedances below 4 ohms. Bill PS: I was correct, the ICBM goes between a pre-amp and an amp. Therefore, it will work on any channels set as large that have outboard amplification. All of the speakers under discussion would benefit from outbaord amplification. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 OK, here I thought you were talking about an unlimited budget I don't think you'd be dissapointed by any means if you went the reference route. Considering you already have the RC-7, why not go ahead and timbre match your mains? As far as your room issue, might I suggest another alternative (you can use your fortes for this as well). Start off playing some normal 2 channel music and turn off your sub, set the mains to large. You say this setup sounds bloated due to the room? If it doesn't, then ignore the trick that I'm going to suggest. Ok so anyways, turn on your sub and set the crossover in the reciever to whatever the highest is as this will make the adjustments easier to dial in by ear. With the mains set to large and the sub playing, adjust the phase on the sub until you get as little bass as possible. Once accomplished, return the crossover to the 60Hz setting. What you are essentially doing is using destructive interference to your advantage and effectively cancelling out that hump. The fact that your mains drop off around 40 and your crossover can be set to 60 makes this work really well. Below the lower cutoff of your mains, there is no more destructive interference happening and you're essentially boosting the frequencies not between 40 and 60Hz. Make sure you use an SPL meter to balance the volume of the sub and mains. Then if you feel there is too much cancellation happening, then simply tweak the phase on the sub accordingly. If this doesn't work then go ahead and get them bookshelf speakers. If you don't get enough cancellation then go ahead and start over, but with the mains set to small. For the record, I have always used floorstanding mains and I've always had them set to small. Just keep in mind that your sub isn't very flat below 30Hz either (-15dB @ 20Hz) so I wouldn't expect too much output below 30Hz anyway. As far as bass goes, a max of 102dB really isn't that loud at all. Also, keep in mind that if you're dealing with a room issue that your subwoofer will also be effected as well. That article you linked too was interesting, but I think he exagerated a lot of his points and made certain things sound worse than they really are. I don't wanna nit pick every single detail but one thing he fails to mention is that the room is a much much much larger factor in the lower frequencies than in the midrange which is why there really has been no need for specialized crossovers...the difference between the current crossovers and decked out ones would be on the order of +-3dB versus at least +-12dB from room effects. The author also failed to mention the phase adjustment that most every sub has nowadays which can be used to dial in the transitions as well (the setup suggestion I provided is an example of a more extreme application). I would love to see a similar article constructed with actual measurements taken of various systems...though it would totally weaken his point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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