Hiding floor standers ie hersey in cabinets??????????

[firedawg24]

I want to build a wet bar in the back of the room but I would like to

add floor standers (havent bought them yet). I want to incorporate the

speakers into the lower cabinet so you cant see them. Have any of you

ever done this? any pics? or ideas?

Will this be some thing that will have to be totally custom or can this

be done with little mods to cabinets bought at Home Depot?

Thanks

Dave

[Speedball]

Hi Dave,

I am guessing if the speakers are put into cabinets it will destroy the imaging and basically not let the speakers sound as good as they could. I suppose if you really wanted to put them in cabinets it could work for you.

[firedawg24]

That is my question I dont want to ruin the sound. I could put a mesh

cover on the doors, but what about the space on the sides, top,

and back? I haven't bought the speakers yet, so they might not be

hersey's it alldepends on what "arrangement" I can come up with.

[damonrpayne]

Putting an enclosure that is meant to be a floor-standing enclosure inside a cabinet is definately going to hurt its performance, especially bass. If "hiding" the speaker is your top priority, have you considered an in-wall enclosure?

[dragonfyr]

Let me see if by expressing the situation a bit differently the impact might be more apparent!...

So you propose to place a speaker into a tuned enclosure, and you are wondering if the presence of the tuned enclosure will have any detrimental effect upon the speaker's response?

[]

[DrWho]

Actually, flush mounting speakers is a common practice in studios and is a great way to boost the LF response of the speaker without sacrificing anything...however, this involves some careful planning....so I would say that this should be a custom job if you want it to sound really good.

The most important thing to keep in mind is "isolation". you have to keep that vibrating cabinet away from any surfaces inside the cabinet, otherwise it will sound very boxy. The easiest way to do this is to mount the speaker to the floor such that it doesn't have to touch the sides of the cabinet at all....make the opening to the speaker just large enough for the speaker to slide through and put plenty of absorbtion on the inside (it's typically better to have the internal space much larger than the mouth of the speaker).

The most frustrating aspect to a flush mounted speaker is that you must get the toe-in angles correct on the first try...are these speakers more for ambiant background music or for dedicated music listening? If you give us some specifics in that regard (including a diagram and dimensions of the room) we should be able to get you real close to some ideal angles...which would then need to be implemented into the design of the bar.

The heresy is actually a very good speaker for this kind of approach because the natural LF roll-off of the speaker matches pretty closely to the LF gain due to the flush mounting (it starts increasing at 100Hz and is gradual up to about +10dB at 20Hz). The -3dB point of the heresy should move down to about 35Hz! (kinda like a cornwall). Larger format speakers that are "flat" into the lower frequencies actually have to implement a counter EQ which is a good thing because it reduces cone excursion for the same SPL (essentially lowering distortion).

I've got some pics on my old pc that I can work on getting to you if you're interested.

[dragonfyr]

Doc, I understand your reference to flush mounting, which is essentially an 'in the wall' installation where the speakers, when installed properly, are completely acoustically and mechanically isolated from the wall! And I love the technique pioneered by Russ Berger to accomplish this! (Mounted on an pedestal which is acoustically coupled to the foundation and completely isolated from the wall - this also means the wall is isolated from the foundation! Essentially a floating room on sorbothane and neoprene pucks!! ) No small feat! And not one the average homeowner is going to try! But that is what is being utilized in many current studio designs!

But there is no feasible way to install a speaker into an space in a cabinet and to effectively isolate the speaker both acoustically and mechanically from the cabinet - short of not installing it there.[] And we won't even attempt to address the additional introduced resonances, diffractive errors, etc., especially as the additional diffractive errors would aggravate an already less then optimal situation in the mid to lower end Heritage (& hence a relatively easy mod...)

I understand the desire to mask the speakers presence, but the acoustic performance of the speakers will suffer as a result of placing them into a cabinet.

[firedawg24]

Let me try to clear things up.

1. First these would be used as my surround speakers,ie 5.1 or 6.1, I have chorus II's up front.

2. If you can picture building a wet bar with a granite top and then

leaving 2 spaces on either side of the center kind of like the hole

used where a dishwasher would go but fill the

space with speakers, obviously the hole would match the speaker.

3. the speakers would not be touching anything but the floor.

4. thought of using quartets or maybe herseys

Anyway that is kinda what I was thinking. It seems that getting

speakers to mate up to CII's and be able to hang them on the wall is

tough. That is why I am toying with this idea. If this idea is feasible

the next question is how far apart should they be? I only have about 10

feet width to play with.

The room dimensions are about 13x18-20 with tile floors. It only has

three walls because it opens into the kitchen and dining room. the

other long wall is a big picture window and a double sliding glass

door, so as far as acoustically thats all I have to work with.

Thanks.

Dave

[colterphoto1]

Your rear speakers should probably not be that low for best imaging. My rule of thumb is you should be able to look over your shoulder when seated and SEE them. If you can, then there is a direct path from the speaker to your ear. For most folks, this involves getting them up off the floor. That is why RB and RS are used for surrounds. Heresies that I have seen in proper home installations are hung from the ceiling. Other rear speakers are hung on walls, on medium high stands, in wall, etc.

Perhaps you could build them into your bar back wall? Or search for posts by jmalotky, his heresy surrounds are hung by very well built brackets.

Michael

[Olorin]

Hanging Academys on the rear wall may be the best bet. Michael is right about the height.

Another thought is the Tangent 10. It uses the K-76 tweeter, same

as the Quartet and the Academy. It's smaller than a Heresy, and

since it's a sealed box it could be hung from a wall or flush mounted

into it. You do need to get the surrounds up over your

head. One good thing about the Tangent 10 is that it can be had

cheaply, and if it doesn't work out you could resell it and probably

only be out shipping.

Putting anything down that low or into a cabinet will be less than

satisfactory. The Quartet's rear passive radiator creates some

challenges for your space.

[firedawg24]

Are there any books or other materials that would explain how best to

flush mount a speaker? Also are there any other speakers that you could

recomend that would work or sound decent in this kind of set up?

As far as pics go that would be great.

Below is the space that I have to work with, but you'll have to use

some imagination. You'sll hae to forgive those 2 black spots in either

corner that is why I need to do this upgrade, what can I say I was

young when I bought them.

Thanks

Dave

dcor73@comcast.net

[Olorin]

Okay. You can't flush mount a 12" deep speaker in an exterior wall. []

I see an opportunity in that picture. You already have speaker

wires going there, and you have a corner to work with, so putting a

shelf across it is trivial. Get a set of Tangent 10s like I

mentioned above and park them up there, and get yourself an Academy for

the center. Problem solved, or as close to solved as it

reasonably gets. []

[colterphoto1]

Good advice Olorin,

I would additionally say that you would NEVER want to surface mount any speaker in an exterior wall of a residence. You will have to carve out the insulation from that area, create a possible air infiltration point, and your speaker might be damaged by moisture. All are bad.

I like the idea of shelf mounted speakers, this would allow a matching type box to your main cabinets. Looks a bit cramped there to put anything on stands (too close to breakfast bar stools). Alternately, it wouldn't be as good of a match, but a SB synergy or small RB could mount on a swivel as well.

Now go do it!

Michael

[firedawg24]

Are tangent 10's the same as 100's? I thought I saw a pair of tangent 100's on ebay not to long ago.

The closets are about 3-4 feet deep, that is where I was wanting to put

the wet bar. I was going to knock the wall between the 2 and

create 1 large bar area. That would be about 10 feet wide.

[Olorin]

Close, but not quite. The Tangent 10 uses the K-76 tweeter, same

as the Academy and the Quartet, and that's why you want it. The

10 is the only small Tangent that uses the K-76. IIRC the Tangent

100 uses the K-74 that's found in some of the KG series but not in the

Chorus/Forte/Quartet/Academy line.

Patience is key here. They don't make them any more, so it's

going to take some patience and some luck to get an Academy, and it's

going to take some patience and some luck to get the Tangent 10s.

That's the price we pay and the challenge we accept when we decide to

use Chorus IIs for home theater mains. You know I'm not just

preaching here since I did it myself. []

[DrWho]

what about installing the speakers in a cupboard up above the bar area? You could put the speakers on the ends and then actually have a cupboard in the middle (you could even implement one of those cool wine glass holder things too).

[firedawg24]

I like this idea. So from what I understand my options for the center

are the Academy, theAcademy, the Academy, or the Academy. As far as

surrounds its the Tangent 10, another pair of Academy's or perhaps a kg

1.x or 2.x?

All of these could be mounted like DrWho said?

[DrWho]

All of these could be mounted like DrWho said?

As long as the port is in the front, then yes (otherwise you would need to modify the motorboard).

Give me a heads up when you get serious about doing this and I can get

those pics to you...I must stress that you cannot allow any vibration

to transfer into the cabinet or you will be very dissapointed (it's

pretty much an all or nothing thing). Also, it wouldn't hurt to make

sure the cabinet walls (especially around the speaker locations) are

well braced and very sturdy (the 3/8" wannabe wood veneer on my parents

cabinets would be a nightmare). You should be able to tap on the

surrounding edges and not hear any resonance, just a thud as if you

were hitting the ground.