Chorus II crossover upgrade?

[kenratboy]

Is there such thing as a upgraded crossover for my Chorus II's?

Don't have any issues, but since I only paid $89.99 for them, I can do

something to them if I want[]

[Frzninvt]

Chris Munson (Popbumper) or Dean will be able to set you up. Although Dean may be a little busy with his new little girl. Chris's are plug and play done on custom made PCB boards - very nice!

[Deang]

You only paid $90 for a pair of Chorus II's?! Wow. I can do those for less than $100, but you wouldn't be getting Kimbers or Auricaps. What you would get are decent polpropylenes and some non-inductive resistors that would certainly sound better than what is in there right now.

[popbumper]

Kenratboy:

If you want some new networks (K-stacks) with high quality parts (Madisound inductors, Kimber and Solen caps, Crites Autoformers, quality circuit boards), write me. I just finished a pair of Chorus II for another gentleman, and pricing still puts you well within a budget for your speaker pair. Do the right thing and invest in quality components, rather than the quick fix; your speakers deserve it.

Chris

[kenratboy]

Yeah, the pawn shop owner just wanted them gone (he knew what they were!)

To add insult to injury, they were priced at $199.99. On sale for

$99.99. 10% off coupon made them $89.99. Guy also

'included' sales tax. I was out of there for $89.99. He

even helped me load them into the truck!

How much better would a upgraded crossover be in them? What would it really do?

[kenratboy]

Oh, and the point I am making is because they were so cheap, spending

$100, $200 on a awesome crossover would not be a big deal (as I did not

break the banl to buy them. Like buying a old 5.0 Mustang for

$1000 and putting a $8500 racing engine in it)

[Deang]

'Awesome' will run you about $325 or so I think. $200 is just short of awesome. And $100 is pretty damn good and much better than it was. Networks I build for myself are pretty much cost no object. You check your wallet and make a decision -- which is what we all have to do. I always say do the best you can afford, especially if you plan on keeping the speakers as your long term listening solution.

[kenratboy]

Do you take the spec crossover and rebuild it with better parts to make things 'better' than factory?

In your experience, what aspect of the sound changes? I imagine

with tighter specs, the speakers will sound closer to each other, but

what sort of improvement is it?

[Deang]

Yeah, I just work off the stock boards. They're attached to the back of the terminal cups. I think most of the improvement comes from yanking the polyesters and junk resistors and replacing them with decent polypropylenes and some Mills non-inductive type resistors. My standard build for those is to use Kimber or Auricaps, which drives the price up to around $200. Soundwise, you lose a lot of the harshness and grain, and the sound is mucho cleaner.

[kenratboy]

Not today, but for $100 or so, I am very interested. These are

1990 vintage, so all the bits in the crossover are 15 years old (I am

sure they are getting worn out/changing), so it sounds like a good idea.

What about replacing the stock crossover to driver wires?

[Deang]

Tinned stranded on those, so no oxidation. I actually use the same type wire on my Klipschorns. It's fine -- leave it alone.

[popbumper]

Looks like Dean has the cheap solution for you. Like he said though, check your wallet and go accordingly. Remember the adage "you get what you pay for", and if you alter original networks, you:

1) ...Risk the chance of "devalue" if they are ever resold (some people DON'T want modded, they want original). You can't really "put them back to original" if you do it, and new parts really don't tend to fit well on the original boards (though some do).

2) ...Have to pull the networks and get them done, so you lose the use of your speakers until they are finished, as opposed to replacement.

3) ...Address only part of the signal path - not the entire audio spectrum. There may be some argument against this, but the "weakest link in the chain" principle ALWAYS applies.

Finally, I recall Bob or Al saying at one time that replacing resistors with non-inductive types made NO difference, so if you are doing the partial solution then you should probably not pay for those. Parts Express sells those at $3.50 each, I'm certain there will be some associated markup with the time that it takes to pull the others and install the new ones.

Chris

[Deang]

I've often suggested the use of services or solutions by Bob, Al, or you -- depending on what the person is looking for and/or is prepared to spend. I've done this openly on the forum and privately in email. I think the decent thing to do is to give the best advice based on what you know about a person's situation. He's obviously looking for the best bang for the buck solution, so what's the point in pressing him like this? At any rate, yanking and replacing the polyesters brings the most overall improvement for the money.

1) Only a complete loon is going to think the speaker is worth less if the caps in the network have been upgraded.

2) Suffering without speakers for a week saves him $250.

3) I agree.

There is only one resistor on each board, and using the best there is runs a whopping $7 total (since I don't markup my parts). What's wrong with 1% tolerance?

[popbumper]

Dean:

Who's pressing? I easily recognize that "pressuring someone" is certainly not going to bring a sale, so, what would be the point in my doing so? Did I not agree that you had the "cheap solution"? Obviously I was suggesting that your method would work for his needs, and mine would not. There is nothing else I could do, nor was I trying to convince him otherwise - that's stupid. Am I wrong to bring up my rationale? You are FREQUENTLY copious with technical monologue and rationale for your decisions, and are rarely questioned, given your reputation. I am certainly sorry you feel comfortable in questioning my directive, perhaps my opinions or ideas are not welcome to you. As far as your other points:

1) Two points, really - first, everyone who owns Klipsch speakers is not interested in network upgrades, or you'd have retired long ago. To wit, can you really argue that EVERYONE who has heard a cap upgrade was satisfied with it? I can identify at least one person here who did NOT like the Academy upgrade, and put his original network back in. Certainly his original speaker therefore had greater VALUE to him as original than modified.

Second, there are MANY folks ot there who posess a "collection" menatality, and believe that a product as purchased is of a quality that should NEVER be changed, even if there were numerous testimonials/"proof" otherwise. If you are not a collector (and I guess you are not by this context), then it is clear that you believe others who disagree with your principles and appreciate Klipsch products as original are LOONS. THOUSANDS of loons.

2) Moot point. Some people don't want to lose having their speakers to use for any appreciable time, especially if the speakers are in their main setups. Some here have suggested this very thing, so my point is still valid for some, perhaps not for him. Many have suggested along the way that it sometimes takes a LONG time to get their networks back. Some people don't think about all the ramifications, so my suggestions add to the possibilities. Does adding make them wrong?

3) Glad we agreed.

4) I said nothing about tolerance, and you completely skipped around the point. Again I was bringing to light what Bob and/or Al had suggested at one time. If this is true, was it wrong for me to suggest that maybe this upgrade was not important? If the guy is wanting to keep it under $100, and you claim the "decent thing to do is to give the best advice based on what you know about a person's situation", then why would you insist on installing an additional $7 worth of resistors, that make no difference, and instead offer him an additional $7 of savings, knowing he is concerned about costs?

Chris

[Deang]

Sometimes something looks like one thing, when it's really another. I guess I read something into your post that wasn't there.

'"Did I not agree that you had the "cheap solution"?"'

I associate the word "cheap" with poor quality, so I was a bit offended.

"I am certainly sorry you feel comfortable in questioning my directive, perhaps my opinions or ideas are not welcome to you."

Not at all. It just seemed a bit over the top since he had already said he wanted to keep the price down. That's why I thought you were pressing.

"Everyone who owns Klipsch speakers is not interested in network upgrades..."

Really? Bob has done hundreds and by the end of decade I'll be on his heels. Nope, I'm pretty sure it's on everyone's upgrade list.

"Can you really argue that EVERYONE who has heard a cap upgrade was satisfied with it?"

Well, at least the ones I've done.

"I can identify at least one person here who did NOT like the Academy upgrade, and put his original network back in."

Sorry about your luck.

..there are MANY folks ot there who posess a "collection" menatality, and believe that a product as purchased is of a quality that should NEVER be changed, even if there were numerous testimonials/"proof" otherwise."

There are some that feel this way, not "many". Most are interested in better sound.

"If you are not a collector (and I guess you are not by this context), then it is clear that you believe others who disagree with your principles and appreciate Klipsch products as original are LOONS. THOUSANDS of loons."

That's a cheap shot (inferior quality). Are you for real? Hey, we're not talking about a circuit change here, and I think even "collectors" have at least one pair they like to mod to get more out of them.

"Many have suggested along the way that it sometimes takes a LONG time to get their networks back."

I think by "many" you mean three. "a LONG time" was two weeks. Doo-doo happens.

"I said nothing about tolerance, and you completely skipped around the point."

I sure did - skipped right over it. I always make them pay that extra $7 because I know it doesn't make any difference and I just love to bleed them dry. Look, I want that resistor dead on, and $3.50 means I don't have to buy 50 cheap ones and measure all of them to find the ones that are. I also like the thick leads, and the fact that they don't have to be glued to the PCB like the capacitors.

[popbumper]

Now we're getting somewhere.....

I associate the word "cheap" with poor quality, so I was a bit offended

Well, that's a personal issue. I can't account for your reactions to things. Again you were "reading", as you said you were.

Not at all. It just seemed a bit over the top since he had already said he wanted to keep the price down. That's why I thought you were pressing.

Initially he said NOTHING about price, until you came in with the $20 hot glue and poly cap solution (CLEAR cheap shot). I guess calling me on it was the right thing to do!

Really? Bob has done hundreds and by the end of decade I'll be on his heels. Nope, I'm pretty sure it's on everyone's upgrade list.

That's not over the top? To make an assumption that it's on EVERYONE'S upgrade list? Wow! AND you'll be on Bob's heels? You ARE really something!

Well, at least the ones I've done.

Add that, and we have PRIDE, but I'm not the one reading here...;>).

Sorry about your luck.

Luck, nothing. I applaud him for being up front and honest; he showed integrity, as opposed to people who claim in "hundreds of dealings" to never have had any "non-positive" dealings. Funny.

There are some that feel this way, not "many". Most are interested in better sound.

Your perception of many is certainly out of line with the standard definition. "Most" people are "interested" in being millionaires. By your definition, most people will be. Woohoo!

That's a cheap shot (inferior quality). Are you for real? Hey, we're not talking about a circuit change here, and I think even "collectors" have at least one pair they like to mod to get more out of them.

"Cheap shot" again. Do I really have to explain this? Never mind, you are lost on it.

I think by "many" you mean three. "a LONG time" was two weeks. Doo-doo happens.

Yeah, you don't like the word "many" either. OK, so I had one guy who didn't like the Academy upgrade. You had three "projects" that took two weeks. I can back up my claim....

I sure did - skipped right over it. I always make them pay that extra $7 because I know it doesn't make any difference and I just love to bleed them dry. Look, I want that resistor dead on, and $3.50 means I don't have to buy 50 cheap ones and meausre all of them to find the ones that are. I also like the thick leads, and the fact that they don't have to be glued to the PCB like the capacitors.

Now THIS statement pretty much ties down the root problem - you SKIPPED right over it because, as happens often (note I didn't say "many times"), you become selective. If it doesn't interest you, if it doesn't benefit you, if it doesn't apply to your principles, if it doesn't brag on you, or if you completely miss the point - it just doesn't matter. Your lack of response to email (note I did not say "many") is probably the best example of this -and when you are called on it you pull the standard "huh, me?" routine. This is unless of course you are being "goaded", or perhaps interpret something as a "cheap shot", at which point you are all over it. I gotta say Dean, for all the praise you get here, I do NOT get it at all.....but that's MY personal issue.....;>).

Chris

[kenratboy]

...

[Deang]

I'm down to a glue stick or two. Potting takes too much time. A shame too, I kind of liked doing it. I don't think it ever took me 20 glue sticks though.

"That's not over the top? To make an assumption that it's on EVERYONE'S upgrade list? Wow! AND you'll be on Bob's heels? You ARE really something!"

I do believe everyone would like to eventually go with nice parts or try a different network. I was obviously being facetious about Bob's heels.

"Yeah, you don't like the word "many" either. OK, so I had one guy who didn't like the Academy upgrade. You had three "projects" that took two weeks. I can back up my claim..."

If it's in the context of someone who sent me their boards and had to sit without speakers while I did the work -- I can only think of three instances where it took longer than it should of. "Many" means "a lot", and since you're exaggerating, yeah, I don't like the word "many".

"...you SKIPPED right over it because, as happens often (note I didn't say "many times"), you become selective. If it doesn't interest you, if it doesn't benefit you, if it doesn't apply to your principles, if it doesn't brag on you, or if you completely miss the point - it just doesn't matter."

You're getting nasty now, and starting to babble. You chose to think I skipped over the issue, when in fact I hadn't. You just didn't like the answer. I'm not going to waste my time addressing the rest of the comments.

"Your lack of response to email (note I did not say "many") is probably the best example of this -and when you are called on it you pull the standard "huh, me?" routine. This is unless of course you are being "goaded", or perhaps interpret something as a "cheap shot", at which point you are all over it. I gotta say Dean, for all the praise you get here, I do NOT get it at all.....but that's MY personal issue.....;>)."

The "huh, me?" routine isn't working for me anymore? I guess I need to come up with something else. It's no secret around here that I'm terrible with email, but the forum is up in the background both here and at work. I have one computer at home and my kids Home School. I also have to let Deb do her thing. I'm on sporadically in the evenings, and when I'm on, I'm usually stuffing my face -- and so just prefer to surf. Before bed, I deal with what I can. A couple of months ago I started having email from the forum sent to work -- and I'm doing a bit better with the email now. I only check the crossoverupgrades account about once a week. Any "praise" I get is probably because I just try to do a good job for people. I don't think I've ever been praised for lightening fast responses on email.

Anything else?

[Deang]

What's going on in this thread? I swatted Chris with a newspaper, and he came back with 2 by 4. If he goes for the pickax, I'm reaching for my gun.

[popbumper]

What's going on? Dean, you crack me up - you again pulled the "huh, me?". It's cute, but it's old - perhaps if you can start owning up to your failings, you will gain even more respect.

Dean presented a methodology, and I presented some alternative points as to why doing it different might benefit the end user. Dean got out his "newspaper", when it wasn't necessary. I ONLY presented a differing opinion - something which I have seen Dean pride himself on challenging at times - and got swatted. Unnecessary for someone who carries such an ominous weight here, and certainly not what I would have expected.

Nah Dean, nothing else for now. Read into it what you want, I think we're all comfortable with our differing viewpoints. Try to lay the newspaper down from time to time - it's not always wise to pull the first punch, and it makes a heck of a difference in how you are perceived.

Chris