center channel frustration - experiment results DTS / DD

[t-man]

Who else here notices the huge center channel difference between DTS and DD soundtracks? Mainly, music DVDs like Eagles, Don Henley, Brian Seltzer, etc...

I have a KG 2.2v center with KG 5.5 mains. In most all DD 5.1 soundracks, there is little difference between running my center with mains (all small) and phantom mode (no center). Tells me I have a good timbre match. However, on DTS soundtracks, when I toggle between center on/off, there is a huge difference and the phantom mode always sound more powerful, and full of life. I know what you are thinking, channel volume, placement, etc. My system is constantly calibrated with all the cool tools and placement is rather ideal for all speakers.

The question begs to be asked, "Would my listening experience be that much better if my center matched my mains perfectly; then I can center in that great phantom sound with DTS?" Afterall, I have a 7 foot wide screen that needs some centering audio.

I went to experiment. I got a pair of KG 2.2s, same as my center, set them up, balanced the channel volumes. Listened to my comparison tests, and still a pretty big difference between phantom mode and center "on". Why is this so, shouldn't it sound identical or better with the identical center speaker in the middle of the screen? If not, why are DTS soundtracks so much different than DD in this respect? That doesn't make sense to me, but it IS my experience.

OK, maybe my center is bad, so I swapped it with one of the mains, re-calibrated, and the tests came out the same.

Conclusion: An identical center channel will not get you the full sound that phantom provides in DTS soundtracks in a more centered way like one would think. There was no immediate audible benefit from using an identical center channel with 5.1 DD soundtracks than a closely, yet not identical, matched and calibrated center channel speaker.

So for those of you (like me) looking to make huge environmental sacrifices and endless searches for the identical matching center, it may not be worth it. Somebody needs to show me otherwise, because I tested it all out first hand. Let the dissagreements begin. However, unless you've done the testing I've done, please keep your hunches and guesses to yourself. Theory is one thing, real world is another. Of course, I guess my receiver may be the problem as well....

I asked HornEd to do this test with his legends years ago, and his results were mixed as well, but he liked the identical center.

[MrMcGoo]

Dolby Digital uses "Dialog Nomalization" which is encoded on each disk. DTS does not use dialog norm.

"Dialog normaization attenuates programs based on the average level of dialog in a program relative to its peak level in order to achieve uniform playback level."

DTS may need to have the center bumped up one to three decibels on your system.

Bill

[t-man]

Thanks Bill. That's what I figured, but I calibrated the levels with Sound and Vision disk, which has DTS tones. I found no difference with end levels on my system when compared to the DD tones.

[DrWho]

I think you need to upgrade your reciever

[Zen Traveler]

Hmmmm. Last year I did tests on Dolby Digital verses DTS concert video's as well. What I noticed was that of the 11 disks I tested, the Dolby digital registered a louder dB level and sounded better to my ears on several disks, which surprised me. The Don Henley disk was one of the disks I tested (if I am remembering this right) whose DTS version I preferred. Unfortunately my written test results are in one of the mass of piles in the guest bedroom. [:$] Now you have me wondering if the difference in SPL was because of the center channel information.[:^)]

FWIW, I set all of my channels as per the Avia disk--then I go and change certain speakers to MY preference. My hearing isn't as exact as the results for the meter, and the meter doesn't appreciate (especially for movies) that I want more sound coming out of my rear surround channels. For music I usually play with the center's dB level, depending on the disk. I will post back if I find my notes or think I have something to add to the discussion.[]

[Steve_L]

"Dialog normaization attenuates programs based on the average level of dialog in a program relative to its peak level in order to achieve uniform playback level."

DTS may need to have the center bumped up one to three decibels on your system.

Not trying to send this post off on a tangent, but what I have noticed over the last year is that when watching HD TV programming where there is also DDigital sound, the "Dial Normalization" shows on the front of my Pioneer VSX-1015TX and then the display will say someing like [Dial Norm +4]. It seems to boost the center channel, which makes perfect sense and makes the listening much more pleasurable for TV shows.

Since noticing this and understanding what is going on, I have switched from listening to movies always in DTS to now defaulting to DD5.1 and I onluy use DTS for video concerts (like last nights Clapton "One More Car, One More Driver). This seems to be working well for me. I noticed before using DTS as my processing mode that I always needed to strain my ears a bit to hear center channel dialog, even though I used the Pioneer MCACC and sat right in the sweet spot.

It could be that the engineers are really getting a bit more sophisticated with using all the bells and whistles in these protocols, or they have better tools to use that help them.

Boy I just love my surround sound, weather DD5.1 or DTS, I just love it as compared the old days.

[fletcherkane]

The 1015tx displays the Dialogue Normalization screen on most dolby digital sources. I was wondering what it was all about until this thread came about.

Everyother receiver I have owned has sounded better with the DTS soundtrack on just about every movie, but with this "new" Dialougue normalization on DD, I too have found myself enjoying the DD track as much or more than the DTS tracks...FWIW

[MrMcGoo]

Dialog normaization has been out since the start of Dolby Digital. The sound engineers and encoders may have gotten better over time at its use.

I suspect that there is another issue at play in these observations. The capability of the center channel speaker may be an issue, proper calibration not withstanding. Many folks on the forum run their center and surrounds a bit on the hot side.

Bill

[Steve_L]

>>> I suspect that there is another issue at play in these observations. The capability of the center channel speaker may be an issue, proper calibration not withstanding. Many folks on the forum run their center and surrounds a bit on the hot side. <<<

I have experimented with this myself, a few times by adding +1, +2 & +3db to center channel and surrounds or both, but I've always ended up defaulting back to the MCACC settings the Pioneer gave me initially, because when I do this, it always seems less than "seamless" or maybe a better word is "artificial" and not a natural sound.

I'm certain that room accoustics and speaker placement play a major role here as well, so that's really where user preference and adjustability come into play. For instance in my room I'm just realzing that the rear of the room where my surrounds are, is much more reflective, with numerous hard surfaces and less sound absorbing materials. Where the front of the room is, with the center, main's and sub is quite soft with lots of absorbing materials, rugs and furniture. (I just noticed that. LOL!) Maybe this explains why I never feel the need to boost my surrounds, but maybe need a bit of a boosts from the center channel for dialog during movies.

In any event, it's pretty cool that DDigital can build that right into the source material.. or not depending on the intent of the producer.