playntheblues Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 Duke heres the ebay item number to the fender 160 with speakers your talking about 7364688501 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 ooohhh ..... those columns sound like absolute drek .......[N] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Well, I can identify with the lust for tubes, but really the only reasonably affordable quality you'll find in this is to buy a decent small format mixer. As djk stated, there are vintage channel strips around. I've got a Ward Beck strip in a box, just waiting for me do something about it. But still, if you don't want to spend too much & keep it simple, get something like an Allen&Heath PA12, which are really flexible and sound fantastic for the money. I much prefer them to similar Mackies. Then just patch in the tube power amps of your choice. Or if you want to play with vintage tube stuff on the cheap, grab a few old 1/4" tape decks with working pres. They won't sound anything like modern gear, and you can always hook them up to a patch bay and use them when appropriate. Unbalanced connections will be the norm, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Duke, the only place I've ever heard the Shure columns sound passable is the Colored Musicians' Club on Broadway. I think they've been in the same place for so long that they've somehow altered the laws of physics... I see the crap all the time, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 What's the budget and what functionality are you looking for? You mentioned a home rig so do you plan on recording anything? If so, the Mackie Onyx mixers with the optional AD attachment will definetly be the best bang for the buck, not to mention they actaully sound rather good. But if you're looking for that "tubelike" liquid sound then I would suggest nothing other than Allen & Heath. That or any of the newer SoundCraft models (the older soundcraft I've mixed on sounds worse than mackie, but every vintage A&H was amazing). And by all means avoid the behringer gear - that's the equivalent to going with bose for HT! [] Btw, you also want to go with a passive mixer - no doubt about it. If you really wanted to, you could hook up any amplifier to your mixer outputs and could even switch it up based on the type of listening you're doing at the time. So if you want that tube sound, then just get yourself a dedicated tube amp (and if you go with a mackie mixer, they all have "tape outputs" from the main mix which would allow you to hook into any "consumer" amp). But until you give us a price range and design goals I don't see how we're going to be of much help. Oh btw, give up on the tube mixer idea. If you want the tube sound then run tube pre-amps and tube processing. But if you're not recording, then why bother with the extra cost? Just get yourself a tube amp for the mains (I think there are some relatively affordable and decent sounding ones that will put out a good 70-100 watts). Also, how big is this room and how loud will it need to get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 [6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 They're not horribly expensive either [] $500 for the 12 channel board $800 for the 16 channel board $400 for the firewire card Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Duke, what's so wrong about Scalas for PA? Too wide of dispersion? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 The Allen & Heath gear is highly very underated. Built like tanks too. The new Mackie Onyx gear looks to be good, especially if you have a firewire card and software. Of course, they come with Tracktion, which is really a great piece of software. I have a version 1.x something. Once I got past the idea that the onsceen look didn't have to be the same as a physical mixer I really like it. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Duke, what's so wrong about Scalas for PA? Too wide of dispersion? Michael well, Nothing given that it was thier intended purpose ... but for his application, poor system match .. all those vintage heads, are realy modded guitar heads ... still replete with ultra high gain... that combined with the 104dB,Scala's.... means feedback up tha a.ss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 The Duke is right on target, as usual. My buddy had an old SUNN tube board that he insisted on using. Worked OK for miking guitar amps, terrible feedback with vocals! We were even using Shure beta 58's and they still fedback with little volume. We now use a Mackie passive with JBL EON powered house mains. If nothing else, the difference in weight is worth it. That friggin' SUNN was HEAVY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 oh, good you had me worried about my double stacks. I love em for PA. Of course these days they'll be mostly used for music playback in the garage/workshop. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 nothing wrong with the lascalas as a PA speaker...from the few listening tests I've done they seem to have a very smooth frequency response with a controlled dispersion pattern which is what makes a speaker less prone to feedback. The reason the old antique gear would cause feedback is because they have the occasional insane spike in the response. Single spikes like this aren't very audible and even add to the cool timbre of the instrument, but the problem is that particular frequency will feedback before all the other frequencies. It basically has the same effect on the mix as raising the noise floor. Even a "small" 6dB spike will lower your max SPL by 6dB. Put your speakers in a small room with problems in the same frequency range and you're looking at 10-20dB reduction in max SPL - at this point it's not even going to matter what mains you're using - you be able to get them louder than the source. Btw, system sensitivity has nothing to do with gain before feedback - though it does mean that feedback will ramp up on you quicker. So if you're one of those mixers that likes to have it on the brink of ringing all the time then you're going to hate lascalas because you won't be able to respond fast enough. Though if you're mixing like that then you've got other issues. It's one of my pet peaves because you can totally bring the mix down 2-3dB and nobody will notice - and you won't be fighting the ringing trying to keep it masked behind the music. sorry for the short rant - it just pisses me off when there's feedback at a show because it is so easy to get rid of it: just fricken turn it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playntheblues Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Drwho, thanks for your input as well. My room is about 25' by 25'. We have acoustic (egg crate) treatment on the ceiling and front and back walls for sound reflection. The floor is 1/2" thick rubber wall to wall. Since we are only hobbyists the room is going to be more of a fun room than a studio. We are planning to build a bar in there etc. I use the room for practice and when we have friends over we play music (everyone want to be a singer GEESCH). What I was trying to accomplish was a dual purpose sound system based on the LaScalas. We need a mixer for the band and a GOOD pre for the stereo in the room. The Allen & Heath looks like a good piece. In between playing I have always had a hard time listening to music through the PA. We use to have a Yamaha 10 channel and Yamaha club 5 speakers. Although good for bands they sounded terrible for recorded music. Soooooooo I picked up the LaScalas and plan to build a dual purpose system with both applications being equally important. One of my tweeters is blown in the LaScalas and I'm going to have Bob Crites rebuild them with his new version as well as replace the old crossovers with one of his new ones. I will probably even put a good used DAC in the system. I have had good results with the Teac 700p on my K-Horns, so if tubes are not going to work (wish they would) what do you think of getting the Allen & Heath or a mixer of equal or better quality and a pro Digital amp? Or would it be just as good to get a powered mixer (if so what do you guys think would sound the best without getting into stupid money)? Its always fun researching this stuff and shopping for a system. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 ew ew ew, don't even consider a powered mixer! You will be fine with an A&H and probably most any PA amplifier. If you're going to do some serious listening then I would highly recommend finding an amp with no fan. You would probably get some of the best results with the Crown K2 (for both listening to and playing music)...though it's prob a bit on the expensive side. Btw, there's nothing wrong with using a seperate signal chain for listening to recorded music. Use your beefy fan powered amp for rockin it out and then use your TEAC for nice listening. There are a bunch of different ways you could wire this up to keep it feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 K-2 .....it'll do PA... and for 2 channel ... make them "Scala's ....Bark .....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playntheblues Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 The only thing is these speakers don't need much power at all. In fact their rated at 100 watts it's hard to find a PA amp in that range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 sometimes you'll be quite surprised what a couple hundred Extra watts ...does for Sound Quality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playntheblues Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Can u say head room? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playntheblues Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Heys guys I just looked up the specs on the Crown K1 and K2. A couple of questions the K5 has 500 watts into 8 ohms and the K1 has 350 into 8 ohms. Wouldn't the K1 be more than enough? And at $1,200.00 which is ok, do you think we should consider some audio amps? Just thinkin here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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