A quick budget projector recommendation question�

[formica]

I'm just looking for a few quick recommendations for a budget projector

for a relatively small image of about a 72"x40" (16:9).

Seems that all the ones I try on the www.projectorcentral.com

calculator tell me the image will be too bright. How big a

problem is that? I'm new to projectors... and have had no

experiance with them yet.

Seating will be about 10' to 11' back (measured from the screen to the eyes).

Thanks...

Rob

[SCOOTERDOG]

You may want to look at the infocus X3. I have seen these around the

799.00 price point. They are not HD but still produce a pretty darn

good pic. But if you want a much better machine without going overboard

on price then go with the Infocus SP4805. I have the 4805 and it is

awesome.Right now it's 999.00 after rebate. Has the following;

component and RGB HDTV (720p, 1035i, 1080i). DVI with HDCP for digital

video and encrypted digital video. Component EDTV (480p, 576p

progressive scan), Component, Composite and S-Video standard TV video

(480i, 576i, composite SCART with adapter, NTSC, NTSC M

That would be my vote

scooter

[sfogg]

"Seems that all the ones I try on the www.projectorcentral.com calculator tell me the image will be too bright. How big a problem is that? "

Don't worry about too bright. If it actually works out to be too bright you can get a neutral density filter to cut down the brightness to acceptable levels.

And if you are watching in a room with some ambiant light in it you are going to want/need the brightness.

Shawn

[formica]

But if you want a much better machine without

going overboard on price then go with the Infocus SP4805. I have the

4805 and it is awesome.

I did look at the SP4805 and SP5000... as both those fall into

budget. I'm looking to keeping it under 2000$cnd (ummm...

1600$US) but money saved there can be spent elsewhere, if you know what

I mean. (for replacement bulbs, for example? []) I still have

some DLP vs LCD reading to do.

You've been using it before you started you HT remodel?

If it actually works out to be too bright you can

get a neutral density filter to cut down the brightness to acceptable

levels

A screw type filter will work? Neat...

I would also like to try to keep a constant 40" height and vary the

width like you mentioned in another thread. Any special feature

to look for?

Based on optics, wouldn't "Keystone Correction" and "Lens Shift"

accomplish the same thing? I'm assuming that there is a

"convenience" difference when it comes to projectors?

Thanks a lot...

ROb

[IndyKlipschFan]

SP4805 Infocus for you would be my choice.. semi budget projector with most of the bells and whistles.

If you have total control of your light, and can get the room dark,.... get a darker screen if that makes sense. This will also render better blacks..

I went with Day Lite screens and am very happy with the results..

7210 Infocus..and a Cinema Contour frame.. ( Wider and angled in... nice black felt) into a Cinema Vision screen (has a little grey to it, it still looks white to me but not white matt...really white..)

Look hard at screen and projector combinations... It WILL make a huge difference IMO.

[sfogg]

"A screw type filter will work? Neat..."

Either that or a 3x3 or 4x4 rectangular filter and some method of holding it in front of the lens. ND filters are used fairly frequently on bright projectors to tame them down a little. Nice trick there is after the bulb dims somewhat with age you can remove the filter and gain back some brightness.

"I would also like to try to keep a constant 40" height and vary the width like you mentioned in another thread. Any special feature to look for?"

There are a few ways to accomplish that. Cheapest is using the zoom in the projector to do that. If you go that route you need a zoom with at least a 1.33x zoom and the proper throw distance. If you have a wider range zoom on the projector you get more leeway WRT throw distance.

Constant height is a very cool feature if you can pull it off. 40" height is basically the same screen size as I am using. Are you going to build your screen or buy one? If you are going to buy one the Carada 104" 2.35AR Precision series is the one I have.

Based on optics, wouldn't "Keystone Correction" and "Lens Shift" accomplish the same thing?"

No. Keystone correction digitally alters the picture to fix the projected shape. You loose resolution/light taking this approach because you use less of the DMD/LCD to make the image on the panel the inverse of the gemetric distortion (keystone) from bad positioning between the projector and the lens. Also if the manipulation of the image is bad you get artifacts from that too.

Len shift uses the full panel but through optics allows you to move the picture around (sometimes both horizotally and vertically) in relation to the projector without having geometric distortions.

Lens shift isn't essential if you have a good physical layout but it can be very handy in making a unit fit in a tougher situation.

"I'm looking to keeping it under 2000$cnd (ummm... 1600$US)"

The 4805 is a good unit and can be had for quite a bit less then that. You might be able to get a AE-700 for around there. That is LCD instead of DLP but it will have higher resolution (720p) and it is very flexible WRT zoom and lens shift features. At the screen size to view distance you are looking at the AE-700 might be a better choice then the 4805. The higher resolution is a good thing in that situation and the 'smooth screen' feature of that projector should help hide screen door more.

" I'm assuming that there is a "convenience" difference when it comes to projectors?"

Somewhat. Once they are installed though much of that has to do with the remotes on them if you are planning on automating the system with a universal remote. You would want things like discrete on/off commands and discrete input commands for the projector.

Good luck,

Shawn

[formica]

I'm learning quite a bit. Like I said I've never had a projector before... so this is my entry into the market.

Perhaps I should mention my room limitations, before I jump to the

wrong conclusions of what I would need. My HT will be in the

basement of my 1950's home, and therefore has very low ceilings (will

be about 6'6" finished) and limited space. The room will be about

16' wide by 28' deep.... but I'll only be using ±17' of that depth for

HT.

I'm using heritage all the way around... and will probably build a

custom centre of about 28" high. Once I remove a little height

for trim and gaps... I'm down to 43" max for a screen. So a

40" image would be 4" to 5" from the ceiling and down to 4 or 5" from

my centre channel and IB subwoofer. I have plenty of width though...

max allowable space is currently at 108" x 42". I would

like to mount my projector to the ceiling... so I can move furniture

around as need be.

Given this, I figured I'd have to either get a unit with a lens shift

or tilt the projector and use keystone correction. I'm now

looking for lens shift and the InFocus 4805 does not have it.

Ironically the NEC HT410 has it at less than 800$.

Lens shift isn't essential if you have a good physical

layout but it can be very handy in making a unit fit in a tougher

situation.

Perhaps I missing something, but wouldn't most

people who install their units on the ceiling have a similar problem to

me?

"I would also like to try to keep a constant 40" height

and vary the width like you mentioned in another thread. Any special

feature to look for?" There are a few ways to accomplish that. Cheapest

is using the zoom in the projector to do that. If you go that route you

need a zoom with at least a 1.33x zoom and the proper throw distance.

If you have a wider range zoom on the projector you get more leeway WRT

throw distance. Constant height is a very cool feature if you can pull

it off.

I did a quick check, and most budget projectors seem to have manual

zooms, which would seem impractical esp if I build a hush box. Is

this thinking right? Even the AE700 and AE900 are labelled as

manual zoom (2:1).

Are you going to build your screen or buy one?

I was initially planning on "painting" my own... and perhaps eventually buying one.

So far... I've gathered these as possibilities...

Infocus ScreenPlay 4805

Optoma H31

Infocus ScreenPlay 5000

Panasonic PT-AE700U

Thanks for all the info so far...

ROb

[sfogg]

Your setup is going to be very close to mine in that you are height constrained with fitting speakers below the screen.

" Perhaps I missing something, but wouldn't most people who install their units on the ceiling have a similar problem to me?"

No, because most projectors without a lens shift already have a vertical offset built in to their throw.

For a ceiling mounted projector typically the top edge of the screen is inline with the center of the lens. Sometime the offset is a couple of degrees more then that... the screen edge will be slightly below the centerline of the lens.

This results in no geometric distortion so no keystone is needed. The manuals of the projectors will specify exactly what the offset is to their throw.

Where you get the geometric distortion is if the screen/projector aren't vertically inline with each other.

IOW... you tilt the projector up/down relative to vertical. When you then project on a vertical surface you end up with the distortion.

The lens shift lets you alter that offset without distortion problems. This is what is needed if the projector can't be lined up properly with the screen... for example if it wasn't possible to mount the projector at the position that would line it up with the top edge of the screen. If you had to project from the middle of the screens height a projector with vertical lens shift can do that. If you had to project from the middle vertical of the screen and 1/3 of the way over to the left horizontal you can do that with a lens shift projector too. They give you much more flexibility with setup.

" and most budget projectors seem to have manual zooms, which would seem impractical esp if I build a hush box. "

Yes, in a hush box that makes it much more difficult without having a powered zoom. You can do it with a anamorphic lens adapter but that adds to the cost. (In a constant height setup you would want a horizontal expansion lens) I use a combination of powered zoom and an anamorphic adapter in my setup in a hush box. My projector is very loud though compared to the newer units.

Shawn

[Thoriated_Tiger]

If you get the 700 (or 900, but you said budget..) a hushbox will not be needed.

I run a 700 about a foot behind, and 2 feet above my head.. can't hear

the fan, can't hear the iris, even with playback stopped and A/C off.

The 700 has a reallly flexible zoom, you may be able to mount it

at the back of the room, on a shelf on the wall, avoiding the cost (and

cabling brouhaha) of a ceiling mount.

All heritage HT.. *envy* [] Mine's on synergies and does

allright... have been toying with the idea of six Heresies (or

six Altec Valencias..) I suspect Heresises will be easier to

source.

There's a THX screen calculator on the web somehwere, goodle for that

term.. feed it your seating distance to the wall, and it'll spit out

the THX and SMPTE screen sizes for that dimension. The THX number

is a little bigger than the SMPTE. I went with the THX + a little

extra.. but not too much.. I don't like neck-swivelling. Mine

came out to 96" diagonal from 10 feet.

For your max width of 108, that comes out to about 15 feet or so, I think, for the "perfect" theater seat.

In my setup, the PJ's on the back wall, up on a shelf, the top of the

lens ring is about even with the top of the screen, and I use lens

shift to shift the image down to the screen.. no keystone required (and

will not be, unless the shelf / mount is not flat and level..)

Man, once you roll a flick through that setup, you may never leave.... []

[Tom Adams]

Hey Formica -

Something came to mind while reading this thread and that concerns your center channel. If you never plan to have a second row of seats, stop reading now and go back to work. []

If you do plan a second row, you may want to give some thought as to how those second row viewers will hear center channel dialog if your center channel is too low. I only mention this because after months of planning and layouts, it dawned on me one day that due to my planned layout of the center channel and my second row seating height, the folks in the back row might not hear center channel dialog very clearly because the speaker would be too low causing the sound to be "blocked". I performed a simulation of my planned layout and sure enough, sitting in my make-shift second row, I could barely see my center channel over the front row of seats.

Anyhow....just a thought.

Tom

[JeffDurbin]

Also give some thought to the Optoma 27 and 31 models (although I agree that the InFocus 4805 is excellent).

Here's a good comparison:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/480p_projectors.htm

[Tom Adams]

Yep - me again Formica. []

I was on the Projector Central website in the member area and a company called Projection Guys has a special going on right now. In a nutshell they are offering the InFocus 4805 plus a 45" x 80" 16:9 electric screen (with remote) for $1249 after a $100 rebate.

Hey JeffDurbin - you still want them wall jacks or do I need to take them back out of the shipping box??? []

Tom

[JeffDurbin]

YES, please. I forgot to drop a check in the mail when I was in St. Louis over the weekend. Thanks for the reminder. I'll call my wife and ask her to do it. SORRY.

[formica]

I will try to post some .pdf drawings on here this weekend of my

proposed room (either in the HT or perhaps the Architectural forum).

It'll give everyone a better idea of what I'm planning. I've

begun the demolition (as I "had" a finished basement), and will be

rewiring quite most of my basement at the same time. Walls,

flooring, ceilings all go... I'm keeping my bathroom, utility, and

studs on the outside walls. What a mess... esp compared to

Scooter's reno.

No, because most projectors without a lens shift

already have a vertical offset built in to their throw. For a ceiling

mounted projector typically the top edge of the screen is inline with

the center of the lens. Sometime the offset is a couple of degrees more

then that... the screen edge will be slightly below the centerline of

the lens.

If I understand correctly, slightly below the centre line would be

towards the ceiling if mounted upside down? This would be good as

it would move the picture closer to the ceiling, or move the projector

just a little lower.

I had read that "table" installed projectors display the image 25% to

40% (of the image height) above the lens' centre line. In other

words, a 40" high image would be displayed about a foot above the

lens's centre line... so I had figured that flipping the projector

upside-down would mean it would be ±12" from the ceiling... which I

can't fit.

If you get the 700 (or 900, but you said

budget..) a hushbox will not be needed....The 700 has a reallly

flexible zoom, you may be able to mount it at the back of the

room, on a shelf on the wall, avoiding the cost (and cabling brouhaha)

of a ceiling mount.

Ok, I'm curious... what's involved in ceiling mounting a

projector? I don't have a rear wall, so it's my only option right

now...

If you do plan a second row, you may want to

give some thought as to how those second row viewers will hear center

channel dialog if your center channel is too low. I only mention

this because after months of planning and layouts, it dawned on me one

day that due to my planned layout of the center channel and my second

row seating height, the folks in the back row might not hear center

channel dialog very clearly because the speaker would be too low

causing the sound to be "blocked".

Tom, I'm not sure if I still like you. [] I do want

two rows of seating... but I don't think I have many other

options. I'm not overly keen on an "acoustically transparent"

screen and placing a centre (or even just the HF bin) over the screen

would make the screen too low. I am strongly considering two

armchairs up front and a sofa out back... which will provide somewhat

of an acoustical gap. Unfortunately you bring up a good point.

What do you guys think about getting "last years" models? While

looking over some of the projectors, I notice the well rated Sanyo

PLV-Z4 and Panasonic PT-AE900U replace the PLV-Z3 and PT-AE700U

respectively. Because these are older (discontinued?) models,

they can now be found for about 1500$... versus the 2000$+ for the new

ones. I realise the PT-AE700 has been mentioned several times

already, and it has lens shift. Would these outperform a newer

1500$ econo unit or would it be a false saving? The Sanyo PLV-Z2

is even cheaper at about 1000$ and seems to have similar

characteristics to the Z3.

More to come...

Rob

PS: being in Canada, I have to be careful when looking at some online specials... as they don't always apply.

[sfogg]

"I had read that "table" installed projectors display the image 25% to 40% (of the image height) above the lens' centre line. In other words, a 40" high image would be displayed about a foot above the lens's centre line... so I had figured that flipping the projector upside-down would mean it would be ±12" from the ceiling... which I can't fit."

Some do that too. That is why you need to see what the vertical offset is on each specific projector you are looking at that doesn't have vertical lens shift. Even with lens shift you need to be sure it has the range to move the picture as you like. Some are more limited then others and if you need both vertical and horizontal shift you tend to have less range then if you need just vertical.

With my projector the edge of the picture is in the centerline of the lens. Still to get enough height I actually recessed some of my projector/mount between the studs in my ceiling to get it higher up. But that is on a larger projector then the models you are looking at.

"I'm not sure if I still like you. Wink [] I do want two rows of seating... but I don't think I have many other options."

Yup, it is a consideration. Are you going to use a riser on the second row? That gives you more room to work with. Also if the first row can recline and the second can't that will tend to give you more clearance between rows.

Shawn

[formica]

I will try to post some .pdf drawings on here this weekend of my

proposed room (either in the HT or perhaps the Architectural forum).

It'll give everyone a better idea of what I'm planning.

Ok, I've started my long "music / HT room" post and I've chosen to put

it in the Architectural forum... as it'll cover both the acoustics as

well as the visual aspect of the room.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/635316/ShowPost.aspx

I'm posting a bit at the time... so I haven't gotten to the projection

part yet (which has been heavily influenced by this thread), but the

drawings are up.

Thanks again...

ROb

[Cal Blacksmith]

I know you are on a budget but ........ to quote an old saying,

The bitterness of poor quality lasts much longer than the sweetness of the low price.

I HIGHLY RECOMEND the Hitachi Pj-TX100 projector. Reviews of it can be seen at

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Hitachi-PJTX100_UltraVision.htm

We have 250 hours on ours and it never fails to impress me EVERY time

it is used. We don't even have a "proper" screen, just the textured

wall painted a very, very light blue. This PJ never fails to

impress anyone who sees it. I have had visitors swear they were going

to sell their new 50" rear projection TVs and buy this projector

because they never saw the detail they saw in our image, using the SAME

movie only the night before!

The list price is about $3,000 but it is online for $1655 and we bought

ours used after looking at the AV forum for $1250 with 20 hours on it

with a copy of the origional recept and the waranty had still not been

sent in. They bought two units but changed the way they were going to

use them and had an extra one.

At the online price of $1655 this unit BLOWS AWAY anything NEAR the price range!

Do yourself a favor and don't scrimp on quality to save a few bucks,

DLPs are ok but this LCD unit is FANTASTIC!! The fan only puts

out 25db to boot. Our airconditioner is louder than that but then with

the Yamaha cranked to reference levels feeding our Forte mains and

Heresy center and rears, you don't hear either[]

EDIT: Please see my pictures on page 53 of the "show us your theater" thread.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/53/388069/ShowPost.aspx#388069