unhappy in hometheaterville

[E Allard]

I bought the reference line (rf3,rc3,rs3 ,ksw12 ) and hooked it up to my Yamaha rx-v1000. First , im dissapointed with the power of the Yamaha and secondly , I'm not exactly dazzled at the perfomance of my referece system. Its performance seems bright ,painfully bright but before I give everything a bad review I thought I'd get advice from guys who know more about HT than I do. My HT room is an "L" shaped room (of equal size ends )with the HT system at the end one part of the "L" .As I said the room is "L" shaped and both rooms are about equal in size . These two rooms have no doors or barriers between them and both are about 12'x20' with the common space between them being about 10'x10'(I know my explaination is not the greatest but its the best I can do).

I uderstand that speaker placement is paramount and room acoustics is important too. The room is in the basement with a padded carpet over a concrete floor and wood paneling on the all walls . The ceiling is 8' and the rs3( mounted 6'high) are about 15' from the tv at the other end and the listening position is between the rs3s facing the tv. Can someone help ? Not enough amp power? Room is an acoustic nightmare?

[jeffgeorge]

My first question would be... have you ever owned Klipsch speakers before?

------------------

RF-3's : mains

RC-3 : center

RS-3's : surrounds

KSW-12: subwoofer

Receiver: Denon 2801

DVD: Panasonic DVD-A120

CD: Yamaha CDC-765

Cables: Tributaries

Sat Receiver: Hughes Direct-TV DD5.1

-------------------------

Family room:

RB-5's (Mahogony)

Receiver: Denon AVR-2000 (2ch.)

Amp: Onkyo M-5000 (2ch.)

CD Player: Yamaha

[E Allard]

George,

No sure havent owned Klipsch before. I also notice that my rc3 sounds small , nasally and compressed. Both the Yamaha rx-v1000 and the rc3 are new, do the need "burn in" time? That rc3 really sounds honky and I dont like it.The rx-v1000 has a built in equalizer for the center channel , I played with that some but I'm still not satisfied. Also , my rf-3s are not biwired and anyway Im not sure that the rx-v1000 has room to fit another wire. Even if i did bi-wire them, would it make a difference? Maybe Im not being clear enough, the system sounds pretty good , but not great and not as good as the Infiniy setup at Circuit City.Yes , I know that its in a sound room specially designed and all but I think with the right tweeking , my Klipsches will put 'em to shame.

[belial]

Hate to tell you this, but I haven't been all that happy with my RC-3 either. I got a great deal online for Klipsch stuff so I just went for it ... My RB-5 bookshelves are nice, but that center doesn't really impress me. Kind of boxy and closed-in sounding, not expansive.

I also have a Yamaha amp, RV 4060, or something like that, and I don't like it much either ...

Did you test your center before you bought it?

[E Allard]

belial,

No I didnt test the RC3 before i bought it . I was so impressed with the rf3s that i figure , how can i go wrong........well , guess what? So far , I think I was wrong.I also agree with your "boxy" observation , the voices dont seem natural , they are clear as a bell but agian, unnatural and edgy (does that make sense?) Anyway , thanks for the input belial

[belial]

You are welcome E Allard. Now I wonder if we are stuck--since everyone stresses how important it is to match Klipsch speakers with other Klipsch speakers ...

I have thought of replacing my RC-3 with another RB-5 bookshelf, since I like them, but that would be expensive and I don't know if I could find a place online that would sell me just one.

Anyone else unhappy with the RC-3? Any solutions?

[boa12]

e, i would try biwiring the rc-3, & the rf-3 while you're at it. that might open it up some. u can get premade biwire cables and/or connectors to fit heavy wire in small connectors (banana plugs, pins, spades, flex-tips). a monstercable dealer can custom make 'em for you.

set the rc-3 to small in the yammy as all other speakers should probably be set small w/ sub on & a line level connection to it from sub out. then turn the ksw crossover all the way to 120hz).

u can always listen to the rf full range in stereo or direct mode for 2 channel music.

also, have u set the speaker levels w/ a sound meter? the rc will probably need to be upped some db. maybe as much as 6db. the rc is a lil less efficient than the rf-3.

also try different placements. u may be getting some bad room interactions. room can really affect sound.

make sure the rc is pointed up or down aimed right at your listening position.

& if it's safe, u may want to take off the grill. may be a slight improvement there.

the rc-3 is no C7, but it's pretty good if it's set up right.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front)

Klipsch KLF C7 (center)

Klipsch Cornwall I (rear)

Klipsch KLF C7 (rear center)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

B&K Reference 30 tuner/preamp/processor

Acurus A200X5 power amp

Marantz MA6100 mono amp (rear center)

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box

Monster HTS2500 & HT200 powercenters

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3, RC-3

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Technics dual cassette deck

Monster HTS1000 powercenter

Bedroom:

Sony STR-DE935 receiver

Technics cube speakers

rock on!

[RMcKenny]

Are you sure it is the sound of the speakers you don't like and not the Yamaha? I have had Yamaha and Klipsch speakers for years and always loved the way they sounded together until I purchased one of the new Yamaha line, the RX-V3000. All of the sudden my trusty old Klipsch KLF-C7 which used to sound great sounded like it was comming out of a hole or something. Also, dialog was no longer clear. I originally thought I had blown something in my center channel. As it turned out, nothing was wrong with the speaker. I just didn't like the sound of the new Yamaha. For this and other reasons I decided to upgrade to the their flagship RX-V1. Same closed in sound and poor dialog inteligibility. Not good. I finally took the RX-V1 back to my dealer and tried a Denon AVR-4802. Bingo! Solved my problem. All sounds great! Dialog is crystal clear and the soundstage is totally open.

Bottom line... You may want to try a Denon AVR-3802 or 2802 which are somewhat equivalent to the RX-V1000.

Also, you made a comment that your Yamaha sounded underpowered. As efficient as Klipsch speakers you should be able to crank them louder than you can ever listen to with 100 WPC. Not sure what is going on there.

Bob

[JLL]

I have RF-3's and RC-3 connected to a yamaha RXV-800 receiver which has just about the same performance as your 1000 with the exception of features. I have had placement issues before which did effect the sound but i have rearranged them and now they sound great. My room is small 8'X 12' rectangular with a carpeted rug. My speakers did take a very long time to brake in. I have my center boosted up 2 db. in speaker level setting. Also I have increased it 1 db. in each of the center channel frequency ranges. E. Allard also you said the center sounds small and nasally this could be due to the recording you are listening too. I have heard this on some bad cd and DVD recordings but if you get a good recording like TOY STORY this center shines, it does have power and goes loud and clear and open with good sounding programs.

[E Allard]

wow, thanks for all the advice guys , I really do appreciate you giving me your time.

boa : will try your bi-wiring and speaker settings thanks for the tip

RMckenny : alot of people agree with you that Yamaha doesnt go well with "hot" speakers and I guess Klipsch speakers are considered "hot". I'm also hearing that Yamaha mellows with time , Ive heard it called "burn in" time. All of that sounds suspsect to me, is there such a thing? I'm not convinced about "burn in" and maybe your right , maybe I should switch to dennon , thanks R.

jll: I have noticed that good sound tracks (read modern) sound good and bad ones, horrible . There doesnt seem to be any middle ground here, the sound track sounds good or horrible .

My test movies

Star Wars Phantom Menice : good - effects life-like

bad - ear peircing highs

unnatural dialogue

Hannable - good - pretty good dialogue/music but not

great

bad - cant adjust the center speaker so it

melds properly with the surrounds ;

its either in your face or not loud

enough

Pefect Storm - all bad - too bright , unnatural ,

Full Metal Jacket - good :the best of the bunch

Misery : (not 5.1) good : not bad dialogue but not

great either

Pulp fiction - good - effects are okay

bad - dialogue unnatural and music is

bright unpleasantly so

[RMcKenny]

E Allard,

My problem with the new Yamaha's was not a brightness problem. If anything, I thought the RX-V3000 and the RX-V1 had muted highs to the point that dialog was hard to understand. My older Yamaha RX-V2095 sounds great with all of my klipsch speakers. It is currently driving my second system which is all Klipsch (KG2.2V and KG 1.2s). It previously drove my main system with the KLF-C7 center and Chorus II mains.

I too have heard that some of the lower end Yamaha's can sound overly bright or harsh. Not sure where the breakover point is in their lineup though.

Relative to your question on burn-in. Speakers definately require break in time. They will sound more musical as time progresses. Not too sure about electronics, however, since there is no moving parts there is really nothing to break in. I'm sure there are differing opinions though.

I brought up the receiver issue because I always had thought that amps/receivers sounded pretty similar and that the main difference is speakers. While speakers do make the biggest difference, there is also a huge difference in amps/receivers. If your dealer has a liberal exchange policy you may want to try some swaps until you get the sound you like (speakers and receivers). I have made all of my purchases in the last several years at Tweeter and they have been extremely flexible.

Good Luck!

Bob

[JLL]

E Allard yes I do have Phantom Menace also and it sounds awesome. The pod race sounds HUGE crisp and clear at very loud volume, at -25 db's. I won't go any louder for I may damage my ears. And crisp I do not mean ear piercing bright it does not sound bright at all on my speakers you have to brake them in and that can take a couple of months. The brightness may be from your room acoustics. Mine use to be bright until I broke them in and now they are great. And yes I do agree with you the vocals sound rather weak compared to the effects in Phantom Menace but I think this is how they made the DVD to sound. I noticed this in just about all the movie theaters normal talking vocals are much lower sometimes compressed sounding compared to the effects. Also try renting TOY STORY 1 the vocals are great not low or nasally. Klipsch speakers sound exaclty what you feed them, a bad recording will not sound great a bright recording will sound bright and a great recording will sound great this has been my experience with DVD's and CD's.

[edster00]

E Allard,

I have the same HT speakers as you do, and I have a Yamaha RX-V995 receiver. No brightness here. My room is a "great room" ~20' x ~20' but is open on 1 side to the foyer and opens into the kitchen/breakfast area to the rear.

The main seating area is a couch ~15' back from the entertainment center. I have the RF3's bi-wired and toed in to point at the couch (left front speaker points to inside the left arm of the couch and the right front speaker points to inside the right arm of the couch). I have my center channel bi-wired and elevated off the shelf it sits on with some rubber feet in front and taller rubber feet in the rear to angle it down toward the couch. The RS3's are mounted behind the couch (near the ceiling...too high but the only place I could put them), they are angled down a bit toward the couch too. I had to bump up the volume on the rears quite a bit because they are so high up.

I used the Avia guide to HT and a rat shack SPL meter to adjust the volume on the speakers.

It sounds plenty good enough for me until my wife lets me bring some of my bigger Heritage speakers upstairs ! I have more than enough power @ 100wpc and it is not bright (to me anyway).

I would definately try toeing in the speakers if you haven't done so, and you might need something on your walls to help break up the reflected sound.

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Ed W

[VideoGUY]

i would go along the same lines as the other guys and suggest your reciever is causing your dissappointment. Its acutally funny because when i went to go listen to my speakers (rf-3's, rc-3's, rs-3's and ksw-12), the store didn't have the showroom setup to listen to them on my particular reciever (sony 444es). so the guy said "i will play them on this yamaha...its similar to your sony." needless to say i had the volume cranked 3/4 of the way up and found my self invisoning and wanting more power! also, the sound wasn't that great and not what i expected. vocal cd's sounding very thick. but i figured my sony would correct that, along with some time playing with the EQ. so i bought the baby's and brought them home. connected them up to my sony....and OH MY G*D!! my living room kicks the crap out of the showroom and whichever yamaha reviever it was. i honestly noticed a huge difference. plus with the 120w that my sony puts out per channel, i havn't had the volume up over half way yet....might blow out a window or somethin'....TEE HEE!!!! anyway....to make a long story short i would point to the same source, the revciever. i know for me i don't experience any of those symptoms you have described.

[E Allard]

First, thanks again guys for all your time.

I bi-wired the center and the right/left and I must say it made a huge difference in the sound quality.I was very skepticle that bi-wiring would make a noticeble difference in the sound but it did.The base is smooth and responsive and the highs are more musical and life -like.It sounds like a different system now , I just can't believe it.This demonstrates to me how much I have to learn about audio and HT.Its also louder than it was before at the same volme .I replayed portions of the same movies listed above and a grinchy frown turned to a grin.What a difference! Well , I guess the message here is to bi-wire Klipsch speakers .The center channel still isnt perfect but at 95% of where I want it.If it mellows some with time it will be amazing....well thats all I have guys , thanks agian

Ed