Can I get Cornwalls in here?

[Longfellowe]

Hi, Im new to the board and hope that some of the more experienced members can help me out with a question or two. The problem I have is space. I know my room isnt big enough for full-sized Klipschorns but Im hoping I may be able to shoehorn a pair of Cornwalls into the space, and thats where I need some advice. The room is only 12X20 feet, but on the positive side has vaulted ceilings, that are 12 feet at the highest point. The Cornwalls would be on one of the 12-foot walls with only 5 feet between cabinets. Allowing 1 foot from the wall behind each speaker puts my listening position only 8 feet from the front plane of the speakers. Is this too close to get good soundstaging? Will I be too far off axis from the horns? Of course, maybe the Cornwall horns are so hot that a little off-axis might be a good thing! I mostly listen to big band, soft rock and jazz-fusion with the occasional trip over to the likes of Kraftwerk and Lee Oskar. I anticipate driving them with an old McIntosh MC2505. Any help, comments, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[boom3]

Welcome! My listening room is 16 x 25 and I have a Corn in each CORNer. No, I think your room will accomodate Cornwalls just fine. IMHO, pick up a pair of the last of the Cornwall IIs (86-90 will be first two digits of the serial number). I don't think Cornwall horns, especially in the last of the II series are all that 'hot'. This is heresy [] but that's what tone controls are for!

[Klewless]

They will work just fine in your room.

Try moving them different distances from the walls of your room. Also try different toe-in angles. Sometimes repositioning or rotation as little as an inch can make a world of improvement in the imaging.

Good luck!

[Hemihorn]

#1 is that you have good room ratios because of the tall ceiling length, width, height, now if you follow THE 38 PERCENT RULE you should have great sound. Also As Klewless said try different toe-in angles, sometimes repositioning or rotation as little as an inch. I like to measure from the rear of my speakers to the wall behind the to see if both speakers are towed equally left and right do inside and outside measurement of each speaker. Also experiment with moving speakers in and out from wall this will change your sound stage depth to your liking. THE 38 PERCENT RULE The placement method used here is based on the "38 percent rule" which states that the best listening position is 38 percent into the length of the room, when measured from either the front or rear wall. This offers the best compromise of peaks versus nulls for any given room size. For 2-channel listening you'll get the flattest low frequency response by sitting 38 percent of the way back from the front wall. However, this is not practical in many home theaters. Fortunately, you can get the same benefit by sitting 38 percent of the room length when measured from the rear wall. Once you know the ideal listening position from the front or rear wall, the next step is to place the loudspeakers. The speakers and listening position should be at the points of an equilateral triangle. Note that the theoretical point of the triangle is just behind your head, with the axis lines grazing your ears.

Here is a excellent link to help you set up the room.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

[Longfellowe]

Thanks for the positive feedback from all, and especially the link to the acoustics page. There's a ton of very useful and, most importantly, practical information in there!

OK, now that I'm re-assured I can use 'em, the struggle begins to find a decent pair. I noticed a magnificent pair of IIs on E-Bay, but the seller wants 2 grand for them. Seems a little high, especially since the crossovers will most likely have to be re-furbed. And there's shipping to consider. Still, I guess the quest is part of the fun.

Speaking of shipping, are there any good strategies for moving these beasts around? I noticed an old thread about a custom made, armored, shipping container making the rounds of the upper mid-west, but that's not really practical for me in the Southeast. A 1000+ mile road trip is not something I'm looking forward to either. Anybody have any luck with Common-Carriers? Moving companies? Ideally, I suppose, would be to box 'em and strap 'em to a wooden pallet. I figure transportation is going to add 300 to 500 dollars to the final cost, depending on where in the country they're located.

[colterphoto1]

CW's would be great for that room. But if there's any way to swing it, place those babies about a 1/3 way in on a LONG wall- Now THAT is some soundstage (that's just about how mine is setup in a similar room)

If you must use the short wall, toe in (place at angle) the speakers such that the sound from the mid horns enters the listening area instead of bouncing off the nearby walls. Some sound absorbtion material at that first point of reflection might help also.

8 feet from CW's is not too close, I'm about 10 from my mains and the rears are 6' behind me. It's AWESOME!

Welcome to the madness.

[colterphoto1]

They can be had here or on ebay, They are best picked up personally, both for their protection and so you can make a better assessment of cabinet and mechanical condition.

If you would post your approximate location on your profile, we might be able to better help you find a pair.

You can get brand new CWIII's for about $3500, so 2 large seems a bit steep unless they are some rare hardwood veneer in excellent condition, about 5 miles from you.

More likely prices are $500 for beat up but working, $700- $1200 for good to excellent used.

M

[chops]

Yeah, you definately won't have any trouble in that room with Cornwalls. My room is only 13x17 with an 8' ceiling. I'm getting a pretty convincing soundstage with great imaging, and I'm seated 12' in front of the CWs. They are about 1' in front of the front wall which is also the short wall (13') and up against the side walls.

All of the tips you have given so far are all excellent ones. And yes, I think $2k is asking way too much for those CWs on eBay. I saw them also. Sure they look good, but not that good. []

[boom3]

double post

[boom3]

My first pair of Corns, bought off ebay, was packed by a storefront operation for $99 and shipped via FedEx Ground. They arrived with several crushed corners, dings and one cut from a cargo hook or box cutter. At least I got the shipping charges refunded to me by the seller.

My second pair were bought from a forum member who took them to Craters & Freighters. I think the shipping was $250. They were beautifully packed on a skid and arrived by motor freight, without a scratch on them.

You only have one chance to have them shipped without damage, so go the Craters & Frieghters route. And yeah, $2K is too high. Expect to pay about $1K including shipping.

[BS Button]

No way that Khorns are out, either. Isn't that about the size of Woodog's room? Those things actually create some space in the Corners, if you put some stuff on top...

BS

[Colin]

I dont know about any Golden Ratios (except for the excellent advice given by George Cardas, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0602/cardas.html). Is that what you mean?

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I can tell you for a fact - from owning a pair of walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with B2 crossovers, for 15 years - that having the one of the largest three-way home speakers you can buy sit only 5 feet apart is going to be a hell of a system, but they are not going to image very easily. Normally, big ole horns should aim either directly at your ears, or at the back of your head, in order to create the best illusion of a 3D sonic holograph.

Whether they are horns or not, loudspeakers should be 3 to 4 feet away from the front and side walls to eliminate the nasty reflections in the mid bass. In your case however, the Corns are going to have to fire down the length of the room. I have no doubt that when you experiment with them, for sheer musical accuracy and imaging, you will end up sitting at the apex of a long isosceles triangle; probably 9 to 12 feet away from the front of the cabinets.

Previously:

The Chorus uses a 15" woofer, but although only to 39Hz instead of the 12" Forte woofer at 32Hz. Chorus sound much like Cornwalls, but with a narrow, more modern looking, practical cabinet. The Chorus are larger and weigh 22 more pounds than Fortes. Klipsch specs show Chorus above <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Cornwall models, with the same sensitivity, but less of a fall below 50Hz. On eBay sales in the past, they were holding their own with Cornwall values at about $550 to $1,000, but in 2004 the wider, slightly more sensitive Corns have pulled ahead.

Posted: 3/21/2005

Cornwalls I and IIs do NOT have horn loaded bass, have smaller mid-range horn than larger Heritage models, still have 15 woofer and amazing 100 dB/w/m sensitivity, bump up around 80-100Hz and fall off quickly below 50Hz. From 18 sales on eBay, as of January 05, Corns sold from $550 to $1,400. An exception was a year ago, when a pair went for $1,800, but generally Corns sell for about the same for Chorus I and IIs (averaging $926, up about more than one hundred from summer), with one pair at 1,906 and another at $1,400.

Posted: 11/30/2004Posted: 3/10/2005

From half-a-dozen sales on eBay, in August 2004: Belle pairs, which share the same wonderful mid and high range drivers and horns as the mighty Khorn, fall off below 100Hz, yet have a tipped up bottom and top-end response (many loudspeakers intentionally tip up the ends of their frequency response), but dont require a corner either, like LaScala but have cloth covered fronts, sold from $800 to 2075 (average $1,352)

From half-a-dozen sales on eBay: LaScala pairs, which also share the same lens and drivers as the Khorn, also fall below 100Hz, their response is rougher but NOT tipped at both ends like the Belles. LaScalas dont require a corner, unlike the Belles they have an exposed front, sold from $750 to $2,504 (average $1,393)

Posted: 12/10/2004

[H]

[Hardhead]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that Klipschorns don't take up any more room than toed-in Cornwalls--generally less, if the Cornwalls are set out from the walls at all.

Use the long wall if there's ANY way possible. I tried it both ways, and the difference isn't subtle.

[Longfellowe]

Thanks again for all the feedback! You guys are amazing!

I'd like to put them on the long 20' wall, but that's impractical due to doors and traffic patterns. I might experiment with it tho', on a temporary basis. The idea of some acoustic damping material at the reflection points of the near walls sounds like a good idea, and toe-in is certainly easy to do.

I understand about the packing, and your advice about only getting one chance is well taken. I'll just have to work out the logistics when I finally secure a pair and find out where they're located. I'm located in Huntsville, Alabama. If anybody knows of an available pair in my neighborhood I'd sure like to hear about them!!

I put in an offer on the very nice E-Bay pair, and the seller counter-offered, but they're still way too high.

Thanks again, the search continues.

[chops]

I put in an offer on the very nice E-Bay pair, and the seller counter-offered, but they're still way too high.

Thanks again, the search continues.

If you're referring to that guy selling the CWs for $2k, I have a feeling he's going to have those speakers for quite a while at that price. Nobody is going to spend that much on them, no matter how nice they are.

It's just like this guy up the street from where I live. He's had a 2001 Harley Davidson Springer sitting on the corner for sale now for nearly a year at $17k. He might as well just stick it back in his garage. It's never going to sell for that much.

Oh well.

[psg]

Late to the party...

I too would prefer the long wall, with the horns aimed directly at you. My room is about 32x11, and I use Klipschorns 18' apart using one false corner. I sit against the "side" wall. The imaging is incredible, absolutely incredible. Your 20x12 would work flawlessly with Klipschorns on the long wall, so it's too bad that isn't practical.

As for myself, I've put my house for sale because I am buying another slightly bigger home. The basement is not finished there, but I'll have room to build a home theater room 18' wide and 15 to 20' deep. Sweet!

[Longfellowe]

Fortune may have smiled upon me. A pair of Cornwalls has appeared on E-Bay in Atlanta which is the closest major metro area to me. To make it even better, there's a Craters & Freighters outlet in Marietta (an Atlanta suburb). I E-Mailed the seller and he tells me that the serial number on one of the boxes is 8P797. Does this make it a I or II? He has also agreed to an audition. Some fairly detailed photos are posted with the listing at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-KLIPSCH-CORNWALL-SPEAKERS-OAK_W0QQitemZ9720369880QQcategoryZ61378QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Could I impose on one of you fine fellows to ease on over to E-Bay and give me the benefit of your experience?

Thanks a lot....

[colterphoto1]

These are the 'I' variety as can be witnessed by removeable back, rear mounted drivers, and K77 tweeter. They are of the CD- BR or Birch, Raw variety ( NOT oak as advertised) which were delivered unfinished. It looks like a screen stock moulding around the front perimeter. So the stained grille fabric might be stapled to the front. (I'm confused as to whether these have flush 'decorator' motor boards or not. Not much care taken in finishing them nicely unfortunately, but you won't have to dig through nasty poly and stain to get down to raw birch veneer on these.

The D indicates Decorator type cabinets, so the panels are cut differently. If you remove that screen stock and moulding, the front panel would have no edges showing and could be finished without the grille for a very cool look- this gives them additional value.

The photos don't display cabinet condition very well, although the tops appear to have some plant water rings and there is either pet or other water damage to the grilles. Not the neatest ones I have seen, but if not too beat up they could be refinished.

Original B crossovers need some refurbishing also.

$400-$600 or so is my guess. That they are close by and you can personally view and audition them is a definite bonus. Travel or shipping could cost $250 on these, so you are lucky indeed to have found them.

Michael

[Longfellowe]

Michael,

Thanks very much for all the detailed information. I was concerned about the crossovers. I knew that nearly any I or II that I buy will probably need the caps replaced, but I was unaware that the crossovers in the Ones were so simple. That's really a good thing, but I was concerned that the original crossovers had been removed and something just kluged in. Glad to know these appear to be genuine.

The cabinet condition is a bit of a downer, but that's manageable if the price is right. We'll have to see how the bidding goes.

Thanks again.....

[popbumper]

So did you get them? Too bad I am not closer, I have a set of original Corns with brand new cabinets (w/Walnut veneer), and brand new "Dean style" crossovers that I would sell. Shipping is a pain, especially with big and heavy items!

Chris