QUiKSR20 Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Hey guys Im totally new to HIGH End audio like old, klipsch stuff ( herseys and cornwalls ) tube amps etc if anyone could give me like a nice info on how tubs work or what the benifits are. How there wattage is diff as opposeed to new stuff. Im totally lost but wanna learn. And posably get into. Any info would be great thanks guys.. Im startin to love this board and turning into a klipschaholic ------------------ Thanks, Daryl Gregg MY Home Theatre Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 ooh, noo!! your not going to ask that question here are you? ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Go look under the Two Channel Audio section. There are some umm "debates" going on in there already about this but you will get some good info too. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUiKSR20 Posted November 2, 2001 Author Share Posted November 2, 2001 Ok sorry guys ------------------ Thanks, Daryl Gregg MY Home Theatre Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Hmmm... Tubes doesn't necessarily mean high end. High end doesn't necessarily mean tubes. In addition to the resources already cited in this thread, you might want to check out: www.audioasylum.com Lots of opinions and sometimes even information... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUiKSR20 Posted November 2, 2001 Author Share Posted November 2, 2001 Thanks, Malcom being i went to 2 channel audio but not much explaining them i just wanna learn some basic and benifits/advantages.. Thanks ------------------ Thanks, Daryl Gregg MY Home Theatre Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Daryl, I'd suggest taking a deep breath, prepare for some rather, er, unusual editorial content, then surf here: http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/index-1.html and, if your eyes haven't crossed to the point where you can no longer read, try this: http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/ you're welcome... ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUiKSR20 Posted November 2, 2001 Author Share Posted November 2, 2001 Thanks finally some info i can really use.. ------------------ Thanks, Daryl Gregg MY Home Theatre Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Darryl, I was just kidding. You should go and listen for yourself. Here is what I think you should know first: Horns are amazingly sensitive. This makes them easy for low powered tube amps to drive. It also makes them very dynamic and revealing. So raw power is probably not what you need, if you have super-efficient horns and/or an SS powered sub-woofer. You will always need quality sound at low power levels. Your horns are not just merely efficient compared to the average speaker (8590 dB/w/m), they are superefficient. This puts them in a different league, for normal power requirements, in typical settings. They will not sound good with minor league front end equipment, they need the major league stuff. Remember an super-efficient horn speaker needs just a few micro-watts, most of the time. In fact, even power hungry electrostatic speakers need a small amount of power for normal music levels (not loud volume peaks). For example, a multi-channel Macintosh amp can easily drive two large electrostatic Martin Logan Prodigys, along with their two ML rear speakers, at conversation levels in a large room. The blue Mac meters with barely waver at a sum total of .2 (or less) watts. Tubes are electric candles of power; vacuum bottles with glowing filaments inside. Tube amps, if properly designed, have fewer solder connections to taint the sonics. A shorter signal path. They are often of simpler and cleaner designs than your typical receiver. Tubes can have rapid attack rates, making them sound fast and quick. They can store a lot of energy. Old tube equipment, with large transformers and new parts, such as the best selling tube amp ever made, the popular Dynaco ST70 (with EL34 tubes), can rival the sound of more expensive solid state amps, especially when coupled to the dynamics of horns. Tubes exhibit a soft clipping charactoristic and different types of distortion, which make them easier on the ears. The cool sound of tubes may due to differences in transformers, lack of negative feedback and large coupling capacitors: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/select/0898/tube.html And tube watts are not SS watts. The saying is that tubes watts are twice as powerful as SS watts. Now it turns out that Tubes Do Something Special (Peter van Willenswaard, Stereophile, September 2000, http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?357). They put out a lot more voltage than we knew. Willensward measured recorded music on a 9 watt amp with 300B tubes. He found tubes were more than 5 times more powerful than suspected; you'd need a 50W transistor amp to realize the same peaks my 9W 300B launched without wincing at my speakers. Although the minute differences in tube sounds are readily apparent, the significant differences only become apparent after long periods of time. You find yourself still enjoying the music as much as you did when you first got the amps. I think that our ears learn how something sounds and get tired of the noise and distortion. This does not seem to be the case with tube and analogue equipment. For the enjoyment of the sound never diminishes and remains pleasing, long after the bloom of the newly purchased tube equipment is off the rose. I believe the reasons we are seeing a rise in the popularity of tube equipment is four-fold: 1. The recommendations of tweaking audiophiles on the Net are without the practical constraints of retail stores; they can freely give their opinion whether they have product to ship or not. 2. The growth of home theaters has made the sub-woofer an accessory, just as accepted in suburban ranch homes as they are in multi-story apartment dwellings 3. The long cycles of deep earth notes, like the low throbbing techno-bop of Sades new Lovers Rock jazz CD, require not just lavish quantities of amplifier power, but also the military discipline of a Sargent-major to control the bass cone excursions and driver impedance swings this means SS class D and H amps. 4. Freeing the tubes from the need to push around the bass allows their use in the mid-range and high end where they excell. But tubes are not without their problems. The biggest one is that you can't walk into many stereo shops and select from a wide range to match your speaker and budget. You can't hear a good example of what the differences might be. Tube equipment is not sold by the mass market brand name companies. They are hot and waste energy. The amps have dangerous voltage. The tubes wear out. The tubes are effected by speaker impedance so that the frequency response is not as flat. Tubes are euphonic and color the sound. The quality deteriorates slowly, ruining your enjoyment of the music. Weak tubes become noisy and bothersome. Selections for receivers and pre-amps with new features are limited. Advances in solid state construction may one day close the gap between tube and digital gear. and oh yes, tubes and horns come closer to musical nirvana for less of my money than any combination I have heard so far ... ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! This message has been edited by Colin on 11-03-2001 at 08:58 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Colin, the correct URL for the stereophile article is http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?357 I'm glad you like the IEEE article "Tube enthusiasts usually contrast the soft sound of tubes with the harsh sound of modern digital recording and mixing, which may have more to do with the use of electrolytic coupling capacitors and inexpensive op-amp ICs than with solid-state devices in themselves".If you read it closely you will see that I covered all these points and more in a previous response.The solid state amp used as a reference in the Sereophile article was defective "Tubes Do Something Special: Page 2 first, I loaded a 25W transistor amp with 8 ohms resistive. It clipped at almost 17Vp (peak) on a continuous sinewave (fig.1). (Note that the vertical scale used here is 5V/division.)" 17V peak is only 18W! A 20W NAD7220 receiver or the 3020 integrated amp will drive 80V P-P into an 8 ohm load on music.Too bad the author of the Stereophile article is not technical enough to have a feel for Ohm's Law. "Old tube equipment, with large transformers and new parts, such as the best selling tube amp ever made, the popular Dynaco ST70 (with EL34 tubes), can rival the sound of more expensive solid state amps" On Klipsch speakers I find the ST70 to be muddy in the bass with a touch of grain in the highs, very similar to an Adcom.I'm glad you and 'homeless' like your tube gear."But tubes are not without their problems. The biggest one is that you can't walk into many stereo shops and select from a wide range to match your speaker and budget." Perhaps you should buy a couple of $1 FETs and build a 10W single ended class A design (the ZEN by Nelson Pass) and see how it compares with $800 a pair WE300s with $500 output transformers and $300 interstage transformers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Thanks for the link, I would like to build the kit someday, where can I find a guide to walk me through? If it sounds so good, why aren't amp makers coming up with their own low cost versions? ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! This message has been edited by Colin on 11-03-2001 at 12:07 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUiKSR20 Posted November 3, 2001 Author Share Posted November 3, 2001 I knew your were kidding colin its ok But thanks for the info guys like i said im extremely new to this stuff and just trying to start off on the right foot and learn as much as i can esp since im starting to love klipsch Thanks for all the help i didnt mean to step out of line at all you guys have helped me alot THANKS BOARD.. ------------------ Thanks, Daryl Gregg MY Home Theatre Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Darryl, you didn't step out of line at all. It is questions like these that many of us live for, if we can help you gain any audio ground at all, while at the same time defending our own hard fought positions, then we have served our purpose. Imagine for an instance, if the reverse was true and instead of every person having a unique mindset and world view, we all held the same mainstream opinion instead. This forum would be as flat as pita bread. Klipsch would sell only RF7s, costing twice as much. Nobody would buy anything but Pioneer receivers and vinyl records would still be in vogue (because everybody knows they are the best ! No, it is better that people step out of line. In fact, the more people that form their own lines, the better. Better for us, better for the forum, better for Klipsch and their product lines, better for Berkeley, and better for our country. For it is not the crowd that makes American consumerism and representative democracy strong. It is the dissenters. It is Thoreau, Gandhi and King; even mobile homeless and the Ears. Sorry if I wax poetic, but for me the lessons of the seventies remain; question authority and match big old horns with antediluvian tubes! ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 "I would like to build the kit someday, where can I find a guide to walk me through? If it sounds so good, why aren't amp makers coming up with their own low cost versions?" Considering that all the info for his designs is/are available for free online at http://www.passlabs.com/ and the circuit boards are available for as little as $6 a channel from http://www.audioxpress.com/bksprods/pcbsindex.htm why would anyone try to compete? How could they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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