Stock Ref IV vs Ref III DeanG modded

[el jopez]

Here is the big question I have on my mind at the

moment. It would seem from what I have read and heard that the main

"change" to the Ref lineup was with the new horn "taming"

the bite that is present in previous Ref lineup.

Having demoed both Ref III and IV, (I do own the Ref 7 lineup) I would have to

agree that the newer models are a bit rounded out over their older siblings.

However, one thing has bothered me. Has anyone ever A/B'ed the new lineup

vs. a Ref-7 setup that was DeanG modded? From my understanding the mod

does exactly what the IV lineup achieves, toning down the "bite" thats

present.

Debate? Anyone care to comment as this can definitely influence major

purchases in the near future.

[Fish]

I can't tell you about the difference in the modded but it's too bad you ain't closer.I have both sets and I'm gettin' ready to sell my cherry 83's and my 64.I'll list em' on the Klipsch site before I list anywhere else.

[Deang]

"I have both sets and I'm gettin' ready to sell my cherry 83's and my 64..."

I've heard that the top is dialed down a bit in comparison to the 7's, but that the overall sound isn't as dynamic. So, what's going on Fish, is it the new cones or new top that are falling short?

[Fish]

"I have both sets and I'm gettin' ready to sell my cherry 83's and my 64..."

I've heard that the top is dialed down a bit in comparison to the 7's, but that the overall sound isn't as dynamic. So, what's going on Fish, is it the new cones or new top that are falling short?

Dean,I'd say not as "dynamic"is a pretty accurate term.I think the cones are ok but I can't get far enough past the top to really tell.The entire presentation is a little boring to me,only imo.The thing I've always like about the 7's is that artificially induced religious experience when you crank em' up.I really like the sparkle of the more traditional Klipsch sound,maybe I'm just used to it.I could not say anything bad about the 83's and the 64 is a killer center,really good HT.I listen to mostly 2ch music and dvd concerts and the 7's(after much auditioning of equipment and set up)fit my ears/taste just about right.I can see where the IV series would please a wide variety of people the think the traditional Klipsch sound is a little "bright",but that's why I like em'.

[Deang]

The new cones look like they have more substance than the old ones, and it makes me wonder if maybe they aren't as light on their feet so to speak. This might cause the midrange to sound darker or a bit repressed/sluggish compared to the 7's.

I only mod the RF-7 network for those who complain about the treble and want it taken down a bit. I've done plenty where all I did was upgrade the capacitors. I will say that those who like the top just the way it is are very much in the minority.

I never viewed the experience of listening to a cranked set of RF-7's as an artificially induced religious experience -- I always thought it was the real thing.

[Jay481985]

i'm interested in the rc64 [] also to be blunt was it a B stock as your rf-83 were or not?

[Fish]

i'm interested in the rc64 [] also to be blunt was it a B stock as your rf-83 were or not?

J,when I do sell em' I'm gonna try to sell as a set(83's and 64 for the price I paid).The 64 also has a "b"stock sticker,I have no idea why as the cherry finish looks better than on my "A"stock rc7.The 83's finish is just as good as my "A"stock rf7's finish.I confirmed with Klipsch the audio performance was tested and is the same as "A"stock.When I do put em' up for sale I'll provide pics but will strongly suggest local pick up.Klipsch done a great job w/the new IV series boxes/packaging but they're still big.

[Jay481985]

Ok... .damn as a set...... I know that they are huge in boxing!

[el jopez]

Fish thats exaclty what I am curious to know. Is it "worth" it to purchase into the new lineup and mix and match or to buy the now disconitued items and DeanG mod them.

The 7's can be a bit to much for my ears at times, so Dean I may be requesting your help if possible. What do you guys think?

Ref III-modded or IV-stock?

[Fish]

Honestly if you think the 7's are too forward,the 83's etc..may be just the ticket.They have much of what I like about the 7's but are not as forward.On the difference between them I'd say it's not too much and comes down to personal preference as they both perform very well.I don't think mixing ref would be a big issue either as I've mixed all types.

So....if you had 7's and an issue,upgrade,if buying either you want,the 83's are less in your face.

[Deang]

I haven't heard the 83's so I can't really give an opinion that matters.

[Raider]

DeanG: some questions, if you don't mind...

Were you deliberately trying to address a particular issue with the RF7's in your crossover mod, or did the improvement in sound character result from the changeout to a better grade of capacitors?

What type/brand of caps and coils are used in the Reference, and what do you use to replace them with?

I find that this is one area where cost ccuts are often made because the results are subtle, can't be seen, and its difficult to market the benefits of upgraded components. Sound damping for the cabinets is the other area often scrimped on. Does anyone who has done surgery on Reference speakers know what Klipsch uses?

Thanks

[Jay481985]

foam inside.

[el jopez]

It would appear then at this point the affordable alternative would be to go to an all 7 system and mod them as it would be cheaper then going to the 83 system.

Ill have to demo some peices at my local dealer to see which route I would like to go.

Thanks for the input.

[Jay481985]

most 7 series are sold out and the 83 would be around the same cost give or take some hundreds.

[el jopez]

There are B stock items and eBay deals to still be had. If anything I needed to know which was a better deal, and it seems 7's modded is by far the cheaper alternative. Doesnt matter if its through an authorized dealer as modding the unit nullifies your warranty if I am not mistaken.

[Deang]

Were you deliberately trying to address a particular issue with the RF7's in your crossover mod, or did the improvement in sound character result from the changeout to a better grade of capacitors?

Both. With music playback the top sounds like it's running away from the bottom. The effect is acceptable for HT where subs are usually employed, but sitting alone the speaker sounds a bit unbalanced. The bass is lean and the midrange is somewhat overshadowed by some peaks in the horn's response. FR plots from the Sound & Vision test report support what a lot of us hear out of the RF-7. The mod isn't exactly radical -- a small value adjustment to the resistor in the notch circuit for the horn (about 1/4 ohm).

What type/brand of caps and coils are used in the Reference, and what do you use to replace them with?

Steel laminate for the low pass section and air cores in the tweeter section. I don't know the brand -- standard fare, which is perfectly fine. The caps in Reference are metallized polypropylene. The series caps are epoxy dipped and have a construction similar to an Orange Drop. These are pulled and replaced with Kimbers, the cap in the notch circuit is replaced with a Janzten, and the low pass cap gets replaced with a Solen. Resistors on the HF board are pulled and replaced with Mills.

[el jopez]

Dean, on average how much does it cost financially and time wise to change out the parts on an RF-7 crossover?

[Deang]

An evening or two on the bench, most of the down time is due to shipping -- which of course varies. You can email me at dgwescott@sbcglobal.net for more details.

[Raider]

Were you deliberately trying to address a particular issue with the  RF7's in your crossover mod, or did the improvement in sound character result from the changeout to a better grade of capacitors?

Both. With music playback the top sounds like it's running away from the bottom. The effect is acceptable for HT where subs are usually employed, but sitting alone the speaker sounds a bit unbalanced. The bass is lean and the midrange is somewhat overshadowed by some peaks in the horn's response. FR plots from the Sound & Vision test report support what a lot of us hear out of the RF-7. The mod isn't exactly radical -- a small value adjustment to the resistor in the notch circuit for the horn (about 1/4 ohm). 

What type/brand of caps and coils are used in the Reference, and  what do you use  to replace them with?

Steel laminate for the low pass section and air cores in the tweeter section. I don't know the brand -- standard fare, which is perfectly fine. The caps in Reference are metallized polypropylene. The series caps are epoxy dipped and have a construction similar to an Orange Drop. These are pulled and replaced with Kimbers, the cap in the notch circuit is replaced with a Janzten, and the low pass cap gets replaced with a Solen. Resistors on the HF board are pulled and replaced with Mills.

Dean:

Interesting. Your description of the RF7 is basically my impression of the RF83's. I haven't heard the RF7's though.

Thanks for the information on your mods. Just curious, how did you arrive at the various caps you use and their placement in the circuit? Experience? Have you done any crossovers for the newer generation Reference line? Based on what you have done, do you think all Reference speakers would benefit from such mods?

Thanks