macaltec Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 I have a set of Altec A7's. I like them very much. Except, one must add some ooomph to the bottom end and a little sizzle to the top end. This is what has been suggested to me. I do miss the low end extension as well as the high end extension capabilities when I use these speakers. I am starting to feel that I have an enormous midrange speaker. Something this big (and well regarded) should not need any additional help. I'm thinking I'd like to trade them for a set of Cornwalls or LaScala's. Something that does a better job of covering the frequency spectrum. Am I nuts? Am I missing something? My only other thought is to build a bass reflex bass bin like the model 19 and see how it mates up with the 511 horn combo. Thanks for the input on this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Mix and match. Works for me. (note avatar to left) tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaltec Posted October 28, 2006 Author Share Posted October 28, 2006 I could do that and may just to see how things shake out (pun intended). I'm not a big fan of Frankenspeakers though. I'm kinda leaning toward an Emminence Delta 15 in a bass reflex enclosure with the 511B/8080-8A horn on top. Or whatever I can get my hands on for LF. Just thought I might be able to avoid some work. I hate work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 I could do that and may just to see how things shake out (pun intended). I'm not a big fan of Frankenspeakers though. I'm kinda leaning toward an Emminence Delta 15 in a bass reflex enclosure with the 511B/8080-8A horn on top. Or whatever I can get my hands on for LF. Just thought I might be able to avoid some work. I hate work. .........."I'm not a big fan of Frankenspeakers"......... Yep, they are hideous,...............until you press the "on" button. I like to say that "If I wanted something to look at, I would buy art, not audio"....... In reality, walnut top-hats will be built sooner or later. Sooner if you ask my wife.[] But, i'll bet those petite little A-7's just look wonderful in your house! The finish wouldn't be flat black would it? No. Bet they are rosewood. [] LMAO. Seems as though "the pot is calling the kettle black"...... Regards, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 macaltec Sent you an email about your A-7's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 This is true! The A-7's are very highly regarded speakers. So much so that they are back in production after quite a few years of nothingness. That's gotta say something for them! Anyway, I don't know if you've heard of this other site yet, but over on the Altec User Board ( http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=3729 ), there are a bunch of nuts on there ( just like this site) that know everything there is to know about Altecs and all of the various tweaks to get the most out of any Altec model. Stop on by there and see what they have to say. One of two things will happen, either you'll modify your A-7's to some degree or you'll end up with some kind of "Frankenspeaker" involving Altec and Klipsch or a complete DIY setup, hopefully still using the 511B/808-8A combo. Also, if those 808's of yours still have the original diaphrams in them, you may want to consider replacing them with fresh new ones. That will most likely regain most of that "sparkle" back into the sound. (this is what I have to do with my 902-8B drivers sometime soon). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaltec Posted October 29, 2006 Author Share Posted October 29, 2006 I could do that and may just to see how things shake out (pun intended). I'm not a big fan of Frankenspeakers though. I'm kinda leaning toward an Emminence Delta 15 in a bass reflex enclosure with the 511B/8080-8A horn on top. Or whatever I can get my hands on for LF. Just thought I might be able to avoid some work. I hate work. .........."I'm not a big fan of Frankenspeakers"......... Yep, they are hideous,...............until you press the "on" button. I like to say that "If I wanted something to look at, I would buy art, not audio"....... In reality, walnut top-hats will be built sooner or later. Sooner if you ask my wife.[] But, i'll bet those petite little A-7's just look wonderful in your house! The finish wouldn't be flat black would it? No. Bet they are rosewood. [] LMAO. Seems as though "the pot is calling the kettle black"...... Regards, Terry Terry, Do I know you? Do you know me? Yeah they are petite alright. You got it on the black issue as well. Carpet as a matter of fact. The cabs are either DIY or kit and I'm leaning toward DIY cause I realy dislike the quality of finish. A kit seems like it may have yielded better results from the builder. I'm in no rush to get rid of them. I just really like the Klipsch and a nice looking speaker is important to me as well as the sound. I'm afraid a totaly new cab may be in order for me to be happy with their apperance. Actually if the cabs were original Altecs I'd feel a little better. The LF extension really is my main focus though. The 808-8A's have a new Radian Diaghragm in them. Bill H @ GPA said is was acceptable but he would rather I have bought new ones from him. Oh well, they came with the rest of it. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 I could do that and may just to see how things shake out (pun intended). I'm not a big fan of Frankenspeakers though. I'm kinda leaning toward an Emminence Delta 15 in a bass reflex enclosure with the 511B/8080-8A horn on top. Or whatever I can get my hands on for LF. Just thought I might be able to avoid some work. I hate work. .........."I'm not a big fan of Frankenspeakers"......... Yep, they are hideous,...............until you press the "on" button. I like to say that "If I wanted something to look at, I would buy art, not audio"....... In reality, walnut top-hats will be built sooner or later. Sooner if you ask my wife.[] But, i'll bet those petite little A-7's just look wonderful in your house! The finish wouldn't be flat black would it? No. Bet they are rosewood. [] LMAO. Seems as though "the pot is calling the kettle black"...... Regards, Terry Terry, Do I know you? Do you know me? Yeah they are petite alright. You got it on the black issue as well. Carpet as a matter of fact. The cabs are either DIY or kit and I'm leaning toward DIY cause I realy dislike the quality of finish. A kit seems like it may have yielded better results from the builder. I'm in no rush to get rid of them. I just really like the Klipsch and a nice looking speaker is important to me as well as the sound. I'm afraid a totaly new cab may be in order for me to be happy with their apperance. Actually if the cabs were original Altecs I'd feel a little better. The LF extension really is my main focus though. The 808-8A's have a new Radian Diaghragm in them. Bill H @ GPA said is was acceptable but he would rather I have bought new ones from him. Oh well, they came with the rest of it. Thanks. ........."Terry, Do I know you? Do you know me?"......... Well, I don't think so, but perhaps we will, if you stick around. Just not sure why you asked that question, and if it would matter anyway. You posted here and I replyed. My speakers are ugly, and I know that. Most people here are not blind, but respect the potential sound of an "Alcorn", having never heard one. (or they are just too polite to say what they really think)[] ....... No,.... not in this place...... Must admit the Frankenspeakers comment put me off a bit considering it came from a person with A-7's in their home. Not exactly " furniture grade" speakers IMO. If we can get past the junk, we can talk about the cost-effective improvements mixing Klipsch & Altec. Willing to build or have built a 60K horn system for about 10K? Speak to D-man, JW Cullison, DJK, ALK, or me. (not necessarily in that order) Welcome to the madness, and best regards, tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macaltec Posted October 29, 2006 Author Share Posted October 29, 2006 Your comments seemed spot on to me. Thought maybe we had crossed paths on another forum. Frankenspeaker is just a term that really fits. It is not always a bad thing. In fact I must confess I do have some Altec Frankentana speakers. That would be an Altec Santana II cabinet with Dayton woofers and a horn tweeter. Best a Santana ever sounded. I just never considered the merging of Altec and Klipsch. I'm not above it, I would really like to have a nice set of Heritage speakers, one of the bigger 3 or 4 models. I really dig the furniture type look of the nicer cabinet offerings. I'll be around. Klipsch is the object of my first speaker obsessions since early childhood. Altec a close second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 "Your comments seemed spot on to me. Thought maybe we had crossed paths on another forum. Frankenspeaker is just a term that really fits. It is not always a bad thing. In fact I must confess I do have some Altec Frankentana speakers. That would be an Altec Santana II cabinet with Dayton woofers and a horn tweeter. Best a Santana ever sounded. I just never considered the merging of Altec and Klipsch. I'm not above it, I would really like to have a nice set of Heritage speakers, one of the bigger 3 or 4 models. I really dig the furniture type look of the nicer cabinet offerings. I'll be around. Klipsch is the object of my first speaker obsessions since early childhood. Altec a close second." Macaltec, welcome to the forum. There are lots of great people in here, and Terry rambled off some people who have taken horn-loaded speakers to the extreme and done them right. Most people in here are the enthusiastic but easy-going type that are also eager to provide advice. You will also find many in here who have merged Altec and Klipsch. Why? Because some (including myself) have had a dissatisfaction with the stock mid-horn in the large Heritage, and some have remedied that nicely by going with Altec horns (511s or 811). That plus the Altec drivers, whether bass or the 8-series - are just sweet-sounding drivers. My own personal musical journey recently has been a combination of Altec and Klipsch. My front speakers are three Belles, with the mains having Al Klappenberger's sweet Trachorn mod (with K55Vs attached) and Eminence tweeters installed (similar to the tweeters Bob Crites sells). In the rear I run Altec Valencias with 811s (806As) that I had converted to three-ways with Beyma CP25 tweeters on top because I just could not get the Altecs to sparkle enough on the top end (total of a 5.1) I also have experience with the commercial VOTTs, and my buddy Sheltie Dave and I have a nice pair that we are working on in St. Louis land (yeah, Cardinals!!!). I really like the VOTT and Valencias bass, but there is something special about horn-loaded bass to me (tightness) and I love the horn-loaded bass sound of my Belles. Of course, they do not go low enough for me so I run a killer sub at low volumes, even with the Belles and Valencias going. After years of tweaking, I finally have my room sound where I want it. That being said, I am moving to Klipschorns soon as I have just purchased some K-horn bass bins. Why? Oh, the grail thing, and just because I found a pair of bins available somewhat locally. Here are my immediate plans: I will be moving the Trachorns and Emminence tweeters to the Klipschorn tops. I am then moving the Altec drivers into my Belles (moving them to the rear) and then selling my Valencia cabinets. Even though the Klipschorns go lower than the Belles, I hope that the Klipschorns will have a satisfying bass response for me up front. Some have discussed the irregular bass response from 200-400 hz of the K-horn bass bins, and I will freely admit that those opinions initially gave me some pause. While I have heard quite a few K-horns over the years, I have not really had free rein to play with a pair at all volumes for extended periods to investigate that response. I guess if I have any dissatisfaction with the "twack" or sound of my upper bass region, down the road I can always cut the bass bin off at 150 - bring in some drivers to do 200-400 only or investigate going the Altec 211 route (or even John Warren and others suggestion of two JBL 10s or 8s). I will start with the Trachorns and play around with them first. My only suggestion is not to get caught up with staying in one camp or the other (all Klipsch or Altec) even though I understand peoples' loyalties for doing so. My goal is to get the best sound out of my speakers, whether that means using Klipsch, Altec, etc. Just some thoughts. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 the irregular bass response from 200-400 hz of the K-horn bass binsh the "twack" that's ..." THWACK "..... Mister or .... do you ...lisp .....[] or sound of my upper bass region, down the road I can always cut the bass bin off at 150 - bring in some drivers to do 200-400 only or investigate going the Altec 211 route (or even John Warren and others suggestion of two JBL 10s or 8s). KH bass would be great cut off at 150 ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Yeah, yeah, yeah........"thwack" - Duke. I've read others' opinions about the K-horn bass bin above 150 hz, and it really has me intrigued. I have to hear it for myself though. That being said, I will have to see how the K-horns (with Trachorns) up front, and the Belles (in the rear) do in my room first since 99% of the time, I am running at least four speakers - front and rear. As always, if I am not fully satisfied, I can start playing around with the 200 idea down the road. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 it's really in trouble around 350 hz ,CJ I don't know how many dB down it is, but notes start to dissapear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/761352/khjub.PDF I think that's the new 2006 khorn plot....I would chalk the lack of thwack up to propogation delay, but that's not a popular topic around here [] For what it's worth, a little sparkle can be added to the top end of the A7 with one of them JBL slot tweeters mounted in the baffle just below the squaker. For bass, you would be hard pressed to find something more exciting than the cornwall...if you can, try to go with the cornwall 3 alignment to avoid standing wave issues. If you're gonna build your own, then I think the Kappa Pro-15A might be a better choice: http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=KAPPAPRO-15A&speaker_size=15&SUB_CAT_ID=1 or the Kappa-15LFA http://www.eminence.com/proaudio_speaker_detail.asp?web_detail_link=KAPPA-15LFA&speaker_size=15&SUB_CAT_ID=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Aaaahh ... there it is ...in the PDF dropping like a rock at 300 hz ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 IF that graph is also showing the Jubilee bass bin, one could say the same thing about that bass bin, abeit with a slightly less dramatic drop in SPL. [:$] Then again, maybe I am just a rookie reading a graph and do not know what I am looking at..... If nothing else, it will force me to keep my ears open, and it could make for a great project down the road. I really like the sound of Al's Trachorns so much that it I hear any deficiencies, I may just try to solve it by making "four-way" Klipschorns, if that is even realistically feasible (supplementing 200-400 only). Too bad that one could not get down to 200 or so out of the Trachorns. Probably the big Altec 200 series horns are the only way to get there in a three-way, fully horn loaded system. To Who's point, I agree that since you already have a pair of A7s going, I would trying adding some sparkle to the top end first before you go a radically different direction. Even though I am an Altec fan, I was never really satisfied until I added sparkle on the top end (Beymas for me). I could have seriously lived with my three-way Valencias in the rear for a long time had I not stumbled across the K-horn bass bins. Who knows, maybe I will still keep the Valencia cabinets and find a use for them..... Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Since you noted it Carl, that's one of the things I don't like about the khorn bass bin....it's a big bell shaped curve response - and the 200-300Hz range of music is what makes things sound "tubby" or "cardboardy" (so if I was on a mixer and wanted to reduce that sound, that's the frequency range I would pull down). However, it doesn't change the fact that the design is very efficient in the 40Hz region and I feel a lot of the khorn performance could be improved by a wide graphic EQ knocking that big hump in the middle down (like 100-500Hz). Likewise, you can do the same thing with the Jubilee in the 100 and 200Hz region and you'll notice you get a much flatter response, but also more efficiency through the majority of the passband as compared to the khorn. One thing we don't see in this graph is the polar response, and I have no doubt the khorn is behaving really wierd above 300Hz due to all its folding...so with a narrow dispersion, it's going to seem like there is even less information in that region because you are going to get less reflections in the room at that frequency range. The low frequency notes, however, are going to have a much wider dispersion (nearly omnidirectional) which means there is going to be a lot more reflected energy at those frequencies. And one more note...these are 1/8th space anechoic measurements of the speakers. Meaning the speakers were sitting in a true corner (like what you have in the room), but the rest of the walls are anechoic. One thing you'll notice in a real room is an increase in the low frequency response, which is the result of reflections in the room being in phase with the original signal. Some refer to it as pressure loading and in an ideal world you will get a max of 12dB/octave starting at the lowest frequency that "fits in the room". The point being that the low frequency extension is only going to improve when put into a room, whereas the high frequency information will not - making that dropping like a rock high end on the khorn bass bin a much worse scenario. Another note about low frequency extension. I would argue that a lot of music benefits from reproduction capability below 30Hz. Having a unit that only goes from 40Hz down to around 16Hz seems a bit silly (only one octave), but if you just run a stereo subwoofer configuration from 80Hz and down, you no longer have to worry about extending the low frequency response of your mains, and you achieve much much lower output - which when dialed in correctly will dramtically improve the listening experience. The crux is doing it correctly - too many people try to dial in subs and can't get it right and then conclude that subs are evil. I like to think of it as moving to a (N+1)-way speaker. (so if you've got a 2-way, think of adding stereo subs as making it a 3-way). Anyway, that's my take on the graphs. You can't argue with the data, but there's usually a million and one ways to interpret the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 howsabout a 8" horn loaded Mid driver ..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 bye the bye ... you can improve the A-7 bass, by closing the port to 75 sq in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Save yourself the time and just buy or build a model 19 with a 511 or 811 and don't look back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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