Name some good subs for 400 or less in the used market.

[TheEAR]

Coupling the sub to the floor adds nothing positive to the signal,the force of the driver(s) back and fort movement is added(causing parasitic vibraions more often then not). Decoupling as long as the sub does not move around(lose energy)is the ideal to get the cleanest sound possible(providing you have done your job treating the room).

The only time decoupling does next to NOTHING is when you have a design using opposing woofers,like the ProMedia 5.1 sub,a few Mirage designs and our russian chess player dual TC sounds sealed monster.The drievrs forces cancel out.And decoupling would be more for show then go.

[TheEAR]

wheelman,

Before building a carton sub using a giant TP tube,test the D10.I am amused how many times DIY pushers just push a sub because it is LOUDER. Louder does not equal better match in your system or room.Louder louder...louder hear me out.

If the D10 fails to satisfy in the loudness departament then try a Sub12 and if you are in need of a tiny bit more output the TP tube finished in gorgeous "fine" textured...Sonotube may be the answer.

[oldbuckster]

Ear, Is it true that a down firing Sub is really not a good design, because of the way the woofer just hangs there, it tends to droop after time?

[TheEAR]

Ear, Is it true that a down firing Sub is really not a good design, because of the way the woofer just hangs there, it tends to droop after time?

The drop is not a factor,as the cone is often light ,mass loaded woofers are almost never mounted downfiring.

[oldbuckster]

Ear, Is it true that a down firing Sub is really not a good design, because of the way the woofer just hangs there, it tends to droop after time?

The drop is not a factor,as the cone is often light ,mass loaded woofers are almost never mounted downfiring.

Because........WHY? or is the answer just that simple?

[TheEAR]

The moving mass is suspended using very durable and wear resistant spider(s) that will recall the moving assembly to the center(neutral) position.

There is no rocket science involved here,and placing almost any woofer upwards or downfiring will move the cone a bit each way.The change is too minute to have an audible effect.

Plus the amp the more damping it has,the more it will negate to an even greater degree this effect.

[wheelman]

I got it in today, it's all hooked up I got in the corner it seemlessly blends in with the heresys II's with no tinkering. Then again maybe because I've messed with subs for so long I just know what works for my room ( settings that is). I need to break it in a bit i'm assuming. That is one tiny subwoofer. One well built woofer for sure. I'm gonna listen to a few hours of music then pop in a dvd.

[DrWho]

I am amused how many times DIY pushers just push a sub because it is LOUDER. Louder does not equal better match in your system or room.Louder louder...louder hear me out.

For what it's worth, I was just referring to the objective data available at my disposal. Providing a subjective opinion on the quality is completely pointless since everyone listens to different music in different rooms with different goals in mind.

I could argue however that a system capable of more output should have less distortion at lower levels simply because the design isn't being pushed as hard...[*-)]

[TheEAR]

I am amused how many times DIY pushers just push a sub because it is LOUDER. Louder does not equal better match in your system or room.Louder louder...louder hear me out.

For what it's worth, I was just referring to the objective data available at my disposal. Providing a subjective opinion on the quality is completely pointless since everyone listens to different music in different rooms with different goals in mind.

I could argue however that a system capable of more output should have less distortion at lower levels simply because the design isn't being pushed as hard...[*-)]

True,how can this be argued? It cannot.

The more headroom you have,the better. Agreed

[TheEAR]

I got it in today, it's all hooked up I got in the corner it seemlessly blends in with the heresys II's with no tinkering. Then again maybe because I've messed with subs for so long I just know what works for my room ( settings that is). I need to break it in a bit i'm assuming. That is one tiny subwoofer. One well built woofer for sure. I'm gonna listen to a few hours of music then pop in a dvd.

Sealed subs using very inert cabinetry are very easy to integrate. Make sure you experiment a bit with placement,it is worth it.

The correct spot for your sub,speakers and seating are some of the most important factors in audio.Plus a bit of well placed room treatment,you can have a great sounding system.And not spend a fortune.

[brennyE]

The Ear: I had to save that picture to my gallery! very nice indeed! are they sunfire subs?

I always thought they were supposed to be compact []

Wheelman: I can highly recomend a DIY project. Nothing gives you greater satisfaction than building your own gear! generally speaking the diy route yeilds better price/performance results though the speaker enclosure usually end up much bigger than a store brought counter part.

[TheEAR]

Yes,Sunfire D8,D12 and Carver KS(a better quality D10 if you want).

All three sealed,dude I am ordering the little SVS ,there is a Canadian distributor. So...more subs to add. []

[DrWho]

Ear, Is it true that a down firing Sub is

really not a good design, because of the way the woofer just hangs

there, it tends to droop after time?

Here's my limted understanding of the situation...

It's not so much the droop over time, but the increase in nonlinear

behavior. By firing downward, you introduce a new force vector from gravity - thus putting an extra strain on the

suspension in only one direction. What you end up with is a driver that

is easier to push forward than backward - even if you modify the

suspension to prevent any amount of droop. It's not a huge deal at "low

signal levels", but the second you start to open the volume up you will

quickly realize it. The problem is that you simply can't make a

perfectly linear suspesion. Granted, you don't really want a perfectly

linear suspension in the first place because the motor itself isn't linear, but you can't make it nonlinear in one direction to compensate for gravity without negatively affection the movement in the other direction.

To put it in normal terms, you will realize a slight reduction in peak

output and about 6dB more distortion all around. It only gets worse if

you're using a driver that shouldn't be down-firing to begin with.

Here's a little math to give you an idea when a driver is suitable or

not:

http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/downfire.html

And just to be fair, there are downsides to normal horizontal

alignments too. If your suspension is too loose, the cone will sag, shifting the VC off center. This isn't

a huge deal on performance, but once you start pushing the cone hard

the diaphragm is going to rock a bit. Typically the top of the driver

is going to stop before the bottom of the driver causing the cone to

twist upward - which then causes the voice

coil to swing down and slam against the side of the gap. Knowing this is going to

occur, driver manufacturers will increase the size of the gap to allow

for more rocking - but this comes at a loss of efficiency. An

alternative is to increase the stiffness of the suspension, but this

will change the frequency response of the driver - the solution is to

make the diaphragm heavier (loss of efficiency) or to make the motor

even stronger (more expensive). Ideally, a subwoofer driver will have a

very loose suspension (allowing a smaller cabinet) that is very rigid

in its tangential motion - thus also allowing the cone to be lighter

which increases efficiency. AND a lighter cone is going to exhibit less

rocking since there is less momentum available. But the weight of the

cone is limited by how stiff it needs to be...

Tying that back into the down-firing situation, you can't have a loose

suspension because the driver will sag even more. So the only option is

to increase the strength of the motor and try to iron-fist your way

into "ignoring" the effects of gravity. You can however decrease the

size of the gap provided you have strict tolerances on the suspension

that prevent rocking - so there are some gains to be had there.

It's a wonderful world of compromises with no best solutions.

[SGARD]

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I had a real budget issue when introducing a sub into my system and decided to look at a different solution

I had a Parasound 5 channel amp of only 85 watt per channel (for less than $400 new) currently driving my rear and back surround in-wall Klipsch RCW-3 (at sub purchase the in-walls were BIC). This left me one extra channel of power not used when I was looking for an in-expensive sub.

I found a Paradigm SB-110 sub with built-in crossover for satellites. The specs were not great at only expect 36 Hz (DIN) low endbut the price was right$55 off e-bay.

I immediately used the sub pre-out to my amp and disconnected the crossover...running the monster cable speaker wire directly to the speaker. The sub is usually on the cheap because of the crossover built inso bypass it. I think I get a lower response bypassing the crossover anywaybut that cannot be verified.

The SB-110 blends in with my current front arrangement of cheap Advent ($150pr @Costco) mains and a Paradigm CC-50 Center (I need a WAY better centerRC-64 HELP ME!) and RCW-3 surrounds and back surrounds.

I have the down firing sub sitting in a big wicker basket with blankets on top (an aesthetic requirement of my wife) so no one can see it in the roomand everyone just about falls over when the room fills with sound and the only visible speakers are skinny little Advent towers.

I have only $750 invested in all 7 channels combined and I can say the quality of sound and the depth of bass belie the small amount paid for the 7 channels of sound.

Eventuallythe front 3 will be RB-81s and an RC-64 with a replacement sub yet undeterminedbut right nowfind me a better sub than a Paradigm SB-110 for $55$85 shipped?

[TheEAR]

The optimal configuration will be a horizontal one,with today's materials and very durable double spiders being used,the shift off center is no minute it is a non issue.

Down or up firing,I agree it is a real problem,as gravity will always work pulling the moving mass down.

I will have to try my Paradigm Seismic subs as font firing,to extract the extra dB or so. []

[mas]

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I had a real budget issue when introducing a sub into my system and decided to look at a different solution

I have the down firing sub sitting in a big wicker basket with blankets on top... find me a better sub than a Paradigm SB-110 for $55$85 shipped?

May I suggest you start by making an adjustment that will cost you nothing (and, except for alimony, wives can be found for cheap!)...REMOVE the sub from the basket and remove the blankets that cover it. May I inquire as to what placement manual you read of this ingenious placement technique?[]

(On the other hand, I wonder if it couldn't be placed out of the way suspended in one of those hanging flower baskets, perhaps with a spider plant...)

Sorry, I couldn't resist having a bit of fun - its Friday afternoon and I am burned out! -...but perhaps we should start with fundamentals!

And if there is a better sub for the money (free and invisible...hmmmm... [] ), I am sure that theEar can find it!

[]

[TheEAR]

Yes TheEAR to the rescue...

Get a Velodyne DD18 or a JL f113,both dirt cheap and almost free,can be hidden! Witha giant blanket,tell your wife its a new vibrating cofee table.

mas,

You are cruel,

Some people have limited subwoofer budgets.I too suffer from the one sub too few syndrome.I have blankets covering them all.

Blankets galore,yyeehaw.

Lets get serious

[mas]

My bad...

I was simply trying to have fun with a big grin! I did not mean any disrespect.

The next round of beer is on me!

[TheEAR]

My bad...

I was simply trying to have fun with a big grin! I did not mean any disrespect.

The next round of beer is on me!

Not to feel bad,sometimes we need to vent a tough day. I was sarcastic in my last post. []

[Spkrdctr]

Since the ear has way too many subs, I will offer to take one of your high end subs off your hands for $200US and shipping. Please make it a real brute though. I want that pants flapping feeling. Thanks Ear. I'm waiting on your generosity........[]