Looking to build a new sub, need driver recommendations/help

[darkside]

Ok, I know I am going to build a subwoofer for car use and cannot decide on a driver.

I have narrowed down the list of possible drivers to the following (any recommendations I don't have feel free to post them)

1. 10" TC Sounds LMS-4000

2. JL 8w7 or 10w7

3. 10" Adire Audio Brahma

4. 8" or 10" Ascendant Audio Assassin

5. Madison Dragon 18 or Executioner X 21

Yes, size is an issue thus all being 8 or 10 inches except the Madison.

As
of right now, a box is not a concern, I am just trying to figure out
which driver would be best for a clean system, not SPL. I was thinking
that either the TC sounds or a W7 would be best, but I just don't
know...

Thanks

[TheEAR]

Looking at your list two drivers emerge as champs,and a third one follows close. Both the 10W7 or the TC Sounds LMS-4000 would be outstanding choices,quality top notch,and even SPL they can generate in a car,beyond loud. Third would be the Adire Brahma,another winner.

I would go with the JL,proven beyond proven.And look at their home subs,they surpass the SVS using the TV12(TC Sounds) drivers! In quality and displace a heck ..alot of air,like the TC and Adire. In a sealed cabinet you get pure gold in sound quality,look up thier website they have enclosure sizes.In any case you better build a rock solid cabinet. Be sure to have a power amp with at least 200W on tap(if not blasting),as ineficient as these woofers are,in a car and with the car's acoustics,the gain is HUGE down deep.You do not need a million watts to produce high SPL from a single ten incher.

And always go for a 10',as the wattage to play at the same SPL as an opposed to an 8" woofer.

[DrWho]

What size car will these be going in? In fact, what model car is it? You can often find resonant frequencies for cars online - below which will be where you'll start to realize cabin gain. The behavior of the car should narrow down your choices.

I've got a 12" Assassin in my car right now and it's more than overkill. I have also heard from a few sources that the Assassin drivers best the Brahma and Shiva drivers by quite a bit, but I haven't had the opportunity to hear for myself.

Your price range is certainly all over the place though. What gives?

[Jay481985]

Looking at your list two drivers emerge as champs,and a third one follows close. Both the 10W7 or the TC Sounds LMS-4000 would be outstanding choices,quality top notch,and even SPL they can generate in a car,beyond loud. Third would be the Adire Brahma,another winner.

I would go with the JL,proven beyond proven. in cars..... And look at their home subs,they surpass the SVS using the TV12(TC Sounds) drivers! and their 3 years after svs came out with their own one's albeit they did use a proven car sub and tweeked it but they still had 3 years more time to release them In quality and displace a heck ..alot of air,like the TC and Adire. In a sealed cabinet you get pure gold in sound quality not quite true, why do you think Klipsch uses PR for a reason, they spent alot of money and man hours to make pr just like they use horns for their speakers. Why is that? because they sound better. In tests with PR, Sealed, and Vented all with the same enclosure etc etc pr sounded the best on double blind sound tests. ,look up thier website they have enclosure sizes.In any case you better build a rock solid cabinet. not really true again, as long as it is braced it should be fine, even deon bearden has stated many times that 3/4 inch mdf is sufficent anything more is bragging rights. Be sure to have a power amp with at least 200W on tap(if not blasting),as ineficient as these woofers are,in a car and with the car's acoustics,the gain is HUGE down deep.You do not need a million watts to produce high SPL from a single ten incher.

And always go for a 10',as the wattage to play at the same SPL as an opposed to an 8" woofer.

[TheEAR]

Looking at your list two drivers emerge as champs,and a third one follows close. Both the 10W7 or the TC Sounds LMS-4000 would be outstanding choices,quality top notch,and even SPL they can generate in a car,beyond loud. Third would be the Adire Brahma,another winner.

I would go with the JL,proven beyond proven. in cars..... And look at their home subs,they surpass the SVS using the TV12(TC Sounds) drivers! and their 3 years after svs came out with their own one's albeit they did use a proven car sub and tweeked it but they still had 3 years more time to release them In quality and displace a heck ..alot of air,like the TC and Adire. In a sealed cabinet you get pure gold in sound quality not quite true, why do you think Klipsch uses PR for a reason, they spent alot of money and man hours to make pr just like they use horns for their speakers. Why is that? because they sound better. In tests with PR, Sealed, and Vented all with the same enclosure etc etc pr sounded the best on double blind sound tests. ,look up thier website they have enclosure sizes.In any case you better build a rock solid cabinet. not really true again, as long as it is braced it should be fine, even deon bearden has stated many times that 3/4 inch mdf is sufficent anything more is bragging rights. Be sure to have a power amp with at least 200W on tap(if not blasting),as ineficient as these woofers are,in a car and with the car's acoustics,the gain is HUGE down deep.You do not need a million watts to produce high SPL from a single ten incher.

And always go for a 10',as the wattage to play at the same SPL as an opposed to an 8" woofer.

Proven in car,and at home...many audiophiles who have the means tobuy them and set them up correctly. And your point is? He is looking for a driver for his car. You like to argue with air here!

3 years after...and? This changes and diminishes their quality? LOL Please,your little quoting will not change what is set in motion,look at AVS where most audiophiles are,they LOVE the JL Audio subs,and recommend them avove all else.As do I and I have more subs and owned more and tested more at home you may ever see. I recommend the JL to anyone looking for a top quality subwoofer.

PR or port it matters not,the sealed JL bests all subs at and even above its price.Including the more costly Velo DD18 in quality...sound,build and has TWICE the output down deep! For $2000 less! No horns do not sound best,a horn is a wave guide,a mechanical amplifier and does not make a speaker sound better.It is a better choice in large spaces as you can PROJECT at a desired spot.A horn is a better choice where you have too much reflective surfaces and want a better focalised result,in some cases it is better in others not.

It is all above all about the drivers used and the optimal match in an optimal cabinet(both volume,shape and an inert cabinet).

[Jay481985]

oops I forgot this was in a car. Anyways jl are expensive drivers for what they are in the car market.

3 years of research and developement is a long time for anything, much can be accomplished in three years and looking at the competitions products.

PR or ported does matter, just like a horn is known to be efficent and thus meaning it needs less power and xmax to get to desired sound, the pr or port make a sub more efficent so it has less distortion!

[TheEAR]

JL Audio aims the upped mid-range to the high end,money is not a problem major concern to those buyers.

JL's single f113 woofer displaces what dual woofers in Mark Seaton's SubMersive displace! Distorion,...ha ha ha too funny YOU CANNOT HEAR the distortion at levels you will listen,unless you want to go deaf.

Yes a few years of R&D to build a sealed compact subs that stomps the competition,mych larger and highly regarded competition! Not too bad

[Jay481985]

JL Audio aims the upped mid-range to the high end,money is not a problem major concern to those buyers. in the car world alot of people are not mid to upper range.

JL's single f113 woofer displaces what dual woofers in Mark Seaton's SubMersive displace! Distorion,...ha ha ha too funny YOU CANNOT HEAR the distortion at levels you will listen,unless you want to go deaf. when you want to do the claimed 4 inch p2p yeah you hear distortion

Yes a few years of R&D to build a sealed compact subs that stomps the competition,mych larger and highly regarded competition! Not too bad few years, didn't they say release date of like late 2005-early 2006 and its what almost the end of 2006?

[darkside]

What size car will these be going in? In fact,

what model car is it? You can often find resonant frequencies for cars

online - below which will be where you'll start to realize cabin gain.

The behavior of the car should narrow down your choices.

I've

got a 12" Assassin in my car right now and it's more than overkill. I

have also heard from a few sources that the Assassin drivers best the

Brahma and Shiva drivers by quite a bit, but I haven't had the

opportunity to hear for myself.

Your price range is certainly all over the place though. What gives?

Thanks for the responses guys.

This

is for a 2001 Mustang so size is an issue, but not much of one. Also, I

listed drivers that I read to be good off of these forums, besides,

price doesn't matter, so long as it doesn't get more expensive than the

TC driver

Also, I left out the Cerwin Vega Stroker 10 and the

Earthquake Tremor X 10, sorry for all the options, but I can't make up

my mind though the best ones are clear

[brennyE]

I would go the tc sounds LMS driver. because of the nice Xmax, and the whole idea of keeping a constant Bl up towards excursion limits.The LMS series are supposed to sound very, very good! all that being said, please dont hurt me The Ear []!!! The JL driver is great to.I just like the whole TC package: the looks, performance and technology.

[TheEAR]

JL Audio aims the upped mid-range to the high end,money is not a problem major concern to those buyers. in the car world alot of people are not mid to upper range.

JL's single f113 woofer displaces what dual woofers in Mark Seaton's SubMersive displace! Distorion,...ha ha ha too funny YOU CANNOT HEAR the distortion at levels you will listen,unless you want to go deaf. when you want to do the claimed 4 inch p2p yeah you hear distortion

Yes a few years of R&D to build a sealed compact subs that stomps the competition,mych larger and highly regarded competition! Not too bad few years, didn't they say release date of like late 2005-early 2006 and its what almost the end of 2006?

That most people are or are not in the upper midrange market...means NOTHING here. The woofers were listed and I gave a recomendation,the thread poster probably knows the prices.

At anything above 3 inches of travel your ears fail,go into protection mode.(remember we are in a car here!!!!!)You have to be deaf to reach this point,and even then how can you hear! So your point is anemic here.

Release dates...so what. You love to argue over thin air here! I am impressed,over thin air.

[TheEAR]

I would go the tc sounds LMS driver. because of the nice Xmax, and the whole idea of keeping a constant Bl up towards excursion limits.The LMS series are supposed to sound very, very good! all that being said, please dont hurt me The Ear []!!! The JL driver is great to.I just like the whole TC package: the looks, performance and technology.

I agree the two final candidates would be TC Sounds and JL Audio.

[darkside]

I thought so

These forums don't think too highly of Cerwin Vega it seems

[brennyE]

I was just having a nice stare at the magnet structure of the TC........looks pretty nice! what is it? 4inches of stacked magnet? anyway I was wondering if in your car it would be possible to invert the sub in the box? I think this would look verrrry nice indeed! while we are on the topic, what are the downsides (if any) of inverting a sub in the enclosure (magnet facing out) and having the phase reversed?

[Jay481985]

JL Audio aims the upped mid-range to the high end,money is not a problem major concern to those buyers. in the car world alot of people are not mid to upper range.

JL's single f113 woofer displaces what dual woofers in Mark Seaton's SubMersive displace! Distorion,...ha ha ha too funny YOU CANNOT HEAR the distortion at levels you will listen,unless you want to go deaf. when you want to do the claimed 4 inch p2p yeah you hear distortion

Yes a few years of R&D to build a sealed compact subs that stomps the competition,mych larger and highly regarded competition! Not too bad few years, didn't they say release date of like late 2005-early 2006 and its what almost the end of 2006?

That most people are or are not in the upper midrange market...means NOTHING here. The woofers were listed and I gave a recomendation,the thread poster probably knows the prices.

At anything above 3 inches of travel your ears fail,go into protection mode.(remember we are in a car here!!!!!)You have to be deaf to reach this point,and even then how can you hear! So your point is anemic here. then why do they always like to advertized the 4 in p2p

Release dates...so what. You love to argue over thin air here! I am impressed,over thin air. I respect a company that will be good on their word with release dates

[CECAA850]

Another thing to consider when purchasing your driver. Look for a driver that likes 500 to 750 watts to drive it. If your drivers wattage requirements get into the 1000+ range (easy to do) you'll then need to look at a larger alternator and beefier charging system wiring for trouble free use.

[DrWho]

I was just having a nice stare at the magnet structure of the TC........looks pretty nice! what is it? 4inches of stacked magnet? anyway I was wondering if in your car it would be possible to invert the sub in the box? I think this would look verrrry nice indeed! while we are on the topic, what are the downsides (if any) of inverting a sub in the enclosure (magnet facing out) and having the phase reversed?

The only downside is safety...that, and maybe a little bit of noise from the spider and wires bouncing around that normally don't make their way through the cone. Of course that's only an issue at large SPL when it prob doesn't matter anyway.

[DrWho]

Another thing to consider when purchasing your driver. Look for a driver that likes 500 to 750 watts to drive it. If your drivers wattage requirements get into the 1000+ range (easy to do) you'll then need to look at a larger alternator and beefier charging system wiring for trouble free use.

Very good point, and I just wanted to elaborate a bit. If you are going to draw 1000 watts on the output of the amp, then assuming 100% efficiency you'll need to draw 1000 watts on its input too. 1000 watts with a 12V DC source requires 1000 / 12 = 83 amps of current. [] That's about half the cold-cranking capabilities of a normal car battery, which means your battery isn't going to be able to supply it for extended periods of time. And that is why insane alternators are needed to keep the battery charged.

[DrWho]

Also, I

listed drivers that I read to be good off of these forums, besides,

price doesn't matter, so long as it doesn't get more expensive than the

TC driver

Also, I left out the Cerwin Vega Stroker 10 and the

Earthquake Tremor X 10, sorry for all the options, but I can't make up

my mind though the best ones are clear

Just a quick comment on subwoofer design from manufacturer and DIY'er viewpoints...

Drivers are NOT a random assembly of motors, supsensions, baskets, and diaphragms. They are carefully engineered for specific applications.

This means the engineer designing the sub is targetting a specific

enclosure in a specific environment (car, home, pro sound, etc etc).

So what does this mean to the DIY'er?

The advantage of DIY is that you can custom build the subwoofer to

fit your aesthetic and size needs. Basically, you are designing the

enclosure first. Once you decide upon the largest feasible enclosure

for your application, it is then a matter of searching the market

within your budget to select the driver that best fits your needs. Of

course you need to be flexible in this process in case you come across

something that can perform better in a smaller enclosure or might be

worth making the enclosure slightly bigger or whatever. But the point

here is that the ENCLOSURE, NOT THE DRIVER should be your first and

most important criteria. You are merely trying to find a driver that

fulfills your needs...not trying to make your needs fit around the

driver (that wouldn't make sense).

Thus far we have learned that you have a 2001 Mustang. What is

the largest enclosure you are willing to put in your car? Once you determine this,

you will need to find the drivers that will negate the transport

function of your car in this enclosure. Only then will you need to make

a decision between brands, but I think you'll realize that one driver

sticks out in your price range and mates with your car better than the

others.

There is no such thing as a "best driver" unless you're worried more

about images and bragging rights than sound quality and true

performance.

And if I may throw yet one more variable out there - you will also

want to take into account the performance of your amplifier. Namely the

required efficiency and any nonlinear frequency responses.

I

hope this made sense...I can't stress enough that you want to design

the enclosure first, pick the best fit driver and then modify the

enclosure to optimize that driver.

[TheEAR]

"I respect a company that will be good on their word with release dates"

And above all I respect one that does not rush a product and delivers a winner not a lemon(remember the LF10 and LF12,air leaks,amp/woofer issues...)that disapears from the market like a shadow. []

You like to argue,be prepared better. So far you have not made much progress. [8-|]