How your room impacts how you hear sound

[jacksonbart]

And the question you posed jacksonbart was how come we don't argue more about room treatments than we do the components.

If now the question is "does the room affect what is heard", we already answered that one page 1 and there was no need for this thread because the answer is an undisputed yes and always has been.

Boy this thread really bothers doesn't it that its being discussed. Those 40 threads on SET vs Pushpull seemed to sit right with you though. Well then don't post, stop reading now. You know what your right, you don't like talking about something with such an impact, well then lets not talk about. Just forget. My bad

[jacksonbart]

Hey is anyone using these products?

http://www.auralex.com/

[anarchist]

jacksonbart,

I read one post from you and I think, ok, he is being reasonable. I read the next and you go off. You're an enigma.

We got started wrong because you wrote something about "stupidest" thing you ever read which frankly will have me respond in kind.

Lets talk about your latest posts.

The first was more than reasonable and if your intent on this thread was to talk about which improvements are good, I am all for it. There are structural products designed to improve the room as well as decorative products. I am keen to see what others have used or tried. Good stuff.

With regards to SET vs. Pushpull, I always thought the threads were nonsense (and said so) and it was pointless to insist someone else have a minimum of 20 watts and disparage their listening habits. If your amplifiers power rating meetings your volume requirements, why would I demand you need more. I wouldn't. How many times could I tell the originator of the thread they were FOS? Franky, if it said or implied SET, Power rating, PP or was started by a certain person, I simply ignored it because it was the same old BS.

I have no experience with the panels you posted but they look cool whether they work or not. With that tile floor in that room, they had better work. []

[maxg]

"But a "properly functioning" amp, pre-amp, cables, have IMO and experiance have less of an impact on the sound one hears than the room."

Not to pick this statement apart (in other words - to pick this statement apart) had you said "properly matched" as opposed to "properly functioning" then I would agree with you.

Of course - getting to properly matched is the journey we are all on - and it is not limited to the amps pre-amps and cables.

All of this raises another question - when is the right time to address room issues?

If I have a system and treat the room to make that system sound good in there do I need to re-treat the room is I change something?

Paraphrasing the example that Shawn made several pages ago - an amp that is weak in bass when matched with a given pair of speakers might need very different treatments from an amp that is strong in the bass. If you treat the room for one - all of that work might have to be undone or redone with the new amp.

Aside from that the one big advantage of investing in equipment over investing in room treatments is that equipment is more likely to be transferable should you move house - or room within the house.

Just thoughts.....

[anarchist]

Max,

You are on the money. Contrarian.

There are certain room improvements which will be universal, others are not. Use room treatments to tame a Yamaha with Klipsch speakers and you will wonder what happened to the highs if you swap in a Denon or B&K amp.

One should be very selective in "treating" their room.

[jacksonbart]

jacksonbart,

I read one post from you and I think, ok, he is being reasonable. I read the next and you go off. You're an enigma.

We got started wrong because you wrote something about "stupidest" thing you ever read which frankly will have me respond in kind.

Lets talk about your latest posts.

The first was more than reasonable and if your intent on this thread was to talk about which improvements are good, I am all for it. There are structural products designed to improve the room as well as decorative products. I am keen to see what others have used or tried. Good stuff.

With regards to SET vs. Pushpull, I always thought the threads were nonsense (and said so) and it was pointless to insist someone else have a minimum of 20 watts and disparage their listening habits. If your amplifiers power rating meetings your volume requirements, why would I demand you need more. I wouldn't. How many times could I tell the originator of the thread they were FOS? Franky, if it said or implied SET, Power rating, PP or was started by a certain person, I simply ignored it because it was the same old BS.

I have no experience with the panels you posted but they look cool whether they work or not. With that tile floor in that room, they had better work. []

engima? ok I can relate to that, perhaps we got carried away. Cheers.

[mas]

There are certain room improvements which will be universal, others are not. Use room treatments to tame a Yamaha with Klipsch speakers and you will wonder what happened to the highs if you swap in a Denon or B&K amp.

This is absolutely incorrect.

This assumes that someone is using acoustical treatments to 'EQ the room', and if you are referring to the widely accepted methods of acoustically treating a room such as advocated by the alumni of SAC, this is complete and utter nonsense. Spoken like a true frequency flatlander.

[jacksonbart]

"But a "properly functioning" amp, pre-amp, cables, have IMO and experiance have less of an impact on the sound one hears than the room."

Not to pick this statement apart (in other words - to pick this statement apart) had you said "properly matched" as opposed to "properly functioning" then I would agree with you.

Of course - getting to properly matched is the journey we are all on - and it is not limited to the amps pre-amps and cables.

All of this raises another question - when is the right time to address room issues?

If I have a system and treat the room to make that system sound good in there do I need to re-treat the room is I change something?

Paraphrasing the example that Shawn made several pages ago - an amp that is weak in bass when matched with a given pair of speakers might need very different treatments from an amp that is strong in the bass. If you treat the room for one - all of that work might have to be undone or redone with the new amp.

Aside from that the one big advantage of investing in equipment over investing in room treatments is that equipment is more likely to be transferable should you move house - or room within the house.

Just thoughts.....

Fair enough to pick that apart. Its a distinction properly "matched" components and ones that are properly functioning. Your right what I meant that the amp, preamp is working with in specifications and not clipping (obviously more important for SS). I would still argue/think that room will have more of impact. Would like to hear others opinions here, but I would also say room treatments should be dependant on the system components, those with the most impact being the speakers and source. An amp and preamp can have an impact I mean so can a equalizer, I did mention that but that should be excluded, that changes everything and usually not for the better.

I also agree its easier to take your system if you move, usually you cannot take a room.

[anarchist]

There are certain room improvements which will be universal, others are not. Use room treatments to tame a Yamaha with Klipsch speakers and you will wonder what happened to the highs if you swap in a Denon or B&K amp.

This is absolutely incorrect.

Put your money where your mouth is then smart guy.

[mas]

There are certain room improvements which will be universal, others are not. Use room treatments to tame a Yamaha with Klipsch speakers and you will wonder what happened to the highs if you swap in a Denon or B&K amp.

This is absolutely incorrect.

Put your money where your mouth is then smart guy.

So genius, how do acoustical treatments attempt to address the frequency response of the room aside from attempting to minimize the detrimental effects of superposition and comb filtering? And how does changing an amplifier change alter the acoustical centers of the speakers and the resulting sound field propagation and the resultant superposition and interaction with the room?

Acoustical treatment doesn't even concern itself with the frequency domain in anything other than the LF standing waves.

You are clueless. Time for you to stop talking.

[maxg]

Mas,

You are a master of the non-helpful post.

Probably a great reply - but unintelligible - try not to assume any of us are up on the latest acoustical research and explain things in layman's terrms so people like me can get it.

Now:

Let us assume I have a B&W 802 speaker and am driving (?) them with a 300 B SET amp - all 8 watts of the beast. Nice mids and highs but rather limited bass.

I swap my 300B for a Yamaha MX-D1 500 wpc digital monster.

I now have bass to burn but my room is reverberating - the windows rattle and the Tsatski's (alternative spelling from Mark's post above) keep falling of the mantelpiece.

Are you saying the room treatments would be the same in each case?

For a simpleton like me it would appear bass traps in the corners might control the bass output from the 500 watter - a bit, but with the 300 B it would probably not make a whole lot of difference.......

[mas]

Mas,

You are a master of the non-helpful post.

Probably a great reply - but unintelligible - try not to assume any of us are up on the latest acoustical research and explain things in layman's terrms so people like me can get it.

Now:

Let us assume I have a B&W 802 speaker and am driving (?) them with a 300 B SET amp - all 8 watts of the beast. Nice mids and highs but rather limited bass.

I swap my 300B for a Yamaha MX-D1 500 wpc digital monster.

I now have bass to burn but my room is reverberating - the windows rattle and the Tsatski's (alternative spelling from Mark's post above) keep falling of the mantelpiece.

Are you saying the room treatments would be the same in each case?

For a simpleton like me it would appear bass traps in the corners might control the bass output from the 500 watter - a bit, but with the 300 B it would probably not make a whole lot of difference.......

What is tiresome is the continuous erroneous assumptions of those who have misrepresented the acoustic treatment process from the beginning, and failing to understand it construct scenarios that are flawed in their basic conception.

First of all, room treatments are not used in lieu of your systems volume controls!

You might want to start by going back and reading some of the posts already made on the subject. You will find that none of them assume your continued 'equipment centric' point of view. Some equipment will effect the interaction of the sound and the room, but that is primarily in the form of speakers. Likewise, signal alignment can have an effect. But we really don't care what amp you use. Nor if its tube or SS. Nor if you like TT or CDs.

The purpose of acoustical room treatments are not to make your amp sound better. It is to remove the detrimental effects of various acoustical phenomena so that you can better hear whatever is coming out of the system more accurately. You folks may focus on EQ and other manners of 'shaping the source', be we are not concerned with that except to remove acoustic anomalies from the sound field. If your equipment stinks, it will do so because of its own merits. If it sounds good it will do so because of its own merits.

[maxg]

Mas,

You are a master of the non-helpful post.

Probably a great reply - but unintelligible - try not to assume any of us are up on the latest acoustical research and explain things in layman's terrms so people like me can get it.

Now:

Let us assume I have a B&W 802 speaker and am driving (?) them with a 300 B SET amp - all 8 watts of the beast. Nice mids and highs but rather limited bass.

I swap my 300B for a Yamaha MX-D1 500 wpc digital monster.

I now have bass to burn but my room is reverberating - the windows rattle and the Tsatski's (alternative spelling from Mark's post above) keep falling of the mantelpiece.

Are you saying the room treatments would be the same in each case?

For a simpleton like me it would appear bass traps in the corners might control the bass output from the 500 watter - a bit, but with the 300 B it would probably not make a whole lot of difference.......

What is tiresome is the continuous erroneous assumptions of those who have misrepresented the acoustic treatment process from the beginning, and failing to understand it construct scenarios that are flawed in their basic conception.

First of all, room treatments are not used in lieu of your systems volume controls!

You might want to start by going back and reading some of the posts already made on the subject. You will find that none of them assume your continued 'equipment centric' point of view. Some equipment will effect the interaction of the sound and the room, but that is primarily in the form of speakers. Likewise, signal alignment can have an effect. But we really don't care what amp you use. Nor if its tube or SS. Nor if you like TT or CDs.

The purpose of acoustical room treatments are not to make your amp sound better. It is to remove the detrimental effects of various acoustical phenomena so that you can better hear whatever is coming out of the system more accurately. You folks may focus on EQ and other manners of 'shaping the source', be we are not concerned with that except to remove acoustic anomalies from the sound field. If your equipment stinks, it will do so because of its own merits. If it sounds good it will do so because of its own merits.

That's a "Yes" then is it?

Remarkable.

[sfogg]

Mark,

"In 6 years on this forum, I can't recall seeing more than a photo or two of members' rooms turned into acoustically treated "sound rooms.""

On this forum there are a few, not many though. On other forums I could show you dozens/hundreds of acoustically designed/treated rooms. Some of which are downright gorgeous to look at. Many are dedicated rooms though.

A dedicated room is if not the best thing I ever did to my system is certainly second place. My wife loves the room BTW.

Shawn

[mas]

That's a "Yes" then is it?

Remarkable.

I don't care what amp you use. It doesn't matter!

But your speakers do matter. And signal alignment does matter.

What is remarkable is that a certain few have run about ignoring all of the conversations that have occurred and all of the references presented, and now pull their heads out of the sand after complaining and denigrating that which they demonstrate they have little to no understanding of, and find their assumptions totally out of line with the premise.

That is remarkable.

[sfogg]

"Your right what I meant that the amp, preamp is working with in
specifications and not clipping (obviously more important for SS). I
would still argue/think that room will have more of impact. "

I would agree. Decent components (amps/preamps/sources) in an outstanding room will trump outstanding components in a crappy room.

Shawn

[maxg]

"But your speakers do matter."

Why?

[maxg]

Shawn,

"I would agree. Decent components (amps/preamps/sources) in an outstanding room will trump outstanding components in a crappy room."

Not exactly 2 sides of the coin is it:

"Decent components (amps/preamps/sources) in an outstanding room will trump outstanding components in a decent room?"

"Crappy components (amps/preamps/sources) in an outstanding room will trump outstanding components in a crappy room?"

Neither case seems quite as clear cut now.

[mas]

Right---I've seen them on other places. I was really just talking about the Klipsch experience (including my own.). In my case, with my house, I'd have to build an addition from scratch. Not impossible, but also not likely any time too soon.

Sorry if you feel that way. I have not seen any space that could not be benefited by appropriate treatment. Now, there may be problems that cannot be easily addressed with simple treatments, but I have not advocated that anyone need build a new room! But starting from scratch easily allows someone to avoid many of the fundamental problems that are, or can be, extremely difficult to address effectively!

But this assumption that acoustical treatment necessitates building a new room is totally bogus. But since so many begin by imposing their own assumptions, you are certainly free to believe whatever you like. Just don't others accountable for them.

[anarchist]

Oh shucks, you edited your post. It was going to be so simple to slam you on the original one.

You claim using acoustic treatments to tame the mids and highs can't result in an overly damped room? That is pure foolishness.

There are primarily 4 purposes of acoustical treatment and the approach is different based on low vs high frequencies.

Tell us, smart guy, what is the best material for taming highs? What is the standard approach to removing standing waves? How do you prevent the sound from being focused in one area? How do you improve the sound stage? What if you have a flat ceiling vs a cathedral ceiling? Go on smart guy. I am waiting with baited breath for your insight.