How your room impacts how you hear sound

[jacksonbart]

Rooms will mostly interact with speakers to change the frequency response. If those FR problems are big enough, it can interfere with detail and resolution of the electronics. The room will have nothing to do (or very little) with grain, tone, clarity hardness, distortion and so on which are characteristics found in amplifiers and preamplifiers. If you have, for instance, an amplifier with rough grained sound, it is going to sound like that pretty much in every room.

Rooms with a bit of lumpiness or some valleys really bother some people, and not bother others too much. I am never that obsessed with frequency response. Even the best halls I have been in have FR problems. You can make the FR as flat as a pancake and if you have a brittle, grainy amplifiers, it will sound like crap.

Max....I agree with you about distance. I generally find that all things considered, closer sounds better than farther.

So should I read your comment that amps matter more than the room in which we listen?

Your making a lot of assumptions about rooms in general there. Lots of glass can cause unpleasent highs (hardness), external noise can cause loss of detail and clarity, lots of early reflections can cause loss of imaging and so it goes.

[oldbuckster]

The room is half the Battle.............Carpeting changes the sound of a stereo.....Drapes can can the sound of a room....Ceiling height will change the sound of a room, open doorways, etc. Yes the room impacts the sound.....BIG TIME..................

[anarchist]

So to still use the analogy of automobiles and typical multple component audio system people own on this forum, then lets say car manufactorers sold car bodies, suspensions, tires all as mix and match components. Well you can talk about the quality of the leather on your seats all you want, but the tires and suspensions will contribute much more to the cars handling ability.

Wonderful. We will use your example to point out the fallacy of your premise. The cars performance will be dictated primarily by its chassis, suspension, transmission and motor, ie. source, speakers, and amplification. The body of the car (room) enhances or restricts that potential as do the auxillary systems. A Ferrari body does nothing for me if I stick a Yugo engine and transmission in it while a VW Jetta will fly with a Porsche engine and tranny.

Are we done with rooms yet? Oh, your other post. The problems you suggested are easily remedied with common sense and speaker placement.

Thank you.

[anarchist]

Yes the room impacts the sound.....BIG TIME..................

It doesn't change the sound of the component.

Your wife (not yours personally) can change the sound you are hearing as well but we aren't suggesting everyone consider that before making an equipment recommendation.

John Doe, your wife never shuts up and has a screechy voice, you need a dark sounding amp to balance her out or a high power bright amp to play over her. Or, to improve the sound of your current system, you could just muzzle her.

[oldbuckster]

BUT, the same component in two different rooms will not sound the same.....................The same component in the same exact room, one carpeted, one bare floor, will not sound the same...................

[anarchist]

The component is producing exactly the same sound. What you hear is different. No matter how you spin it, the equipment is creating the sound and the room is impacting certain elements of it. If the source sucks (meaning all the components), there is nothing you are going to do to make them great by altering the room.

Marks post above clearly nailed the difference. There are qualities which are intrinsic to the amplifier, speaker, source, or preamp and there are those impacted by the room.

[Islander]

In moderate to large rooms for speakers that do NOT require corner placement I have noticed over the last 6 months or so that most audiophiles place them too far apart.

After a lot of playing (in 12 houses to date) I have found that the best sound comes....wait for it......when the speakers are......here we go.......6 foot 9 to 7 foot 6 apart measuring centre of the tweeter to centre of the tweeter.

No - I do not know why. Yes - it does appear to be almost independent of room and listening distance (from 6 to 15 feet anyway). It would be nice if some of you could check this out and report back. Like I said - I am batting 12 for 12 on this one thus far - but I have not tried it on heritage speakers yet (Scalas, Belles etc). Worked BRILLIANTLY for a pair of RF7's though. Worked on my own speakers too, and a pair of 802's, some Martin logans, Spendors, Triangles......

Does anyone else think I am losing it?

No, Max, you're not losing it, but I've found that not all speakers want the same spacing to sound best. With the Audio Logic speakers (2-way bass reflex, twin 10-inch bass/mid drivers) I was using, a separation of 5 feet center-to-center spacing was fine (with 8.5 feet listening distance), but with the La Scalas, the soundstage was compressed and the imaging was disappointing.

Last December, psg was in town on business and had time to stop by for a listen. He immediately said I should move them much further apart and offered to help me do it right then. Since it involved moving furniture and getting longer speaker cables, it took a couple of weeks to get around to it, but it was really worth it. They're now 11.5 feet apart center-to-center, toed in to point almost directly to the listening position 12 1/2 feet away, 3 1/2 feet from the back wall.

The soundstage is bigger, the imaging is solid, on a left-to-right basis at least, and more mid-range fine detail is audible, much to my surprise (about the detail).

According to the Heritage Series owner's manual, "Klipsch Heritage loudspeakers perform best when positioned on the corners on the long wall of a rectangular room. If the room is very narrow and long with corners farther apart than 18 to 20 feet, the stereo image may not be optimal. A room with a length to width ratio of 1.00 to .618 is preferred. In addition, Klipschorn loudspeakers seem to benefit from ceiling heights no lower than 8.5 feet. Since room acoustics vary, some situations may dictate speaker placement outside of the corner. In most cases, the speaker should be toed in toward the listening position. The degree of toe in should be adjusted to taste or to compensate for room placement."

It goes on to say that "The Belle Klipsch and La Scala feature self-contained, front-firing, folded bass horns to permit placement out of the corner if required. However, because these models have less bass extension than the Klipschorn, the low frequency acoustic reinforcement of corner placing may be optimal. The Belle Klipsch and La Scala also offer full flexibility with regard to toe-in achievable for the desired stereo image."

These instructions are different from typical manufacturers' recommendations, but Klipsch certainly has the years of experience to know what they're talking about. Paradigm, at least, recommend that speakers be placed from (listening distance) apart down to (3/4 of listening distance) apart.

Max, have you found that the ideal speaker separation is independent of the listening distance? Could it be that an approximate equilateral triangle formed by the speakers and the listener is a good starting point in most cases?

[Islander]

So to still use the analogy of automobiles and typical multple component audio system people own on this forum, then lets say car manufactorers sold car bodies, suspensions, tires all as mix and match components. Well you can talk about the quality of the leather on your seats all you want, but the tires and suspensions will contribute much more to the cars handling ability.

Wonderful. We will use your example to point out the fallacy of your premise. The cars performance will be dictated primarily by its chassis, suspension, transmission and motor, ie. source, speakers, and amplification. The body of the car (room) enhances or restricts that potential as do the auxillary systems. A Ferrari body does nothing for me if I stick a Yugo engine and transmission in it while a VW Jetta will fly with a Porsche engine and tranny.

The car components analogy that you are both using for your debate is flawed in that the room would be represented by the road, not the tires. In that case, it becomes clear that certain cars will perform well on certain roads (sportscar on twisty roads) and other cars will outperform them on other roads (rally car or perhaps SUV on potholed roads, for example). Since there are no "standard" rooms or "standard-sounding" systems, it would seem that the room and the sound system should complement each other to sound best. If needed, room treatments could be one of the less expensive parts of the complete package...

[Tarheel]

Reading some of the room treatments that have been suggested I realized I had heard many of these tips before. Mapleshade has a list of "free audio upgrades" that include the following.

Almost everyone sits too far from their speakers (8-10')....try a low chair or pillow and sit 5' away.

Nearly everyone sits too high The "tweeters at ear level" rule sounds logical but fails when tested. For a test sit on 1 or 2 phone books.

For much improved bass and huge soundstage put your listening chair right against the wall behind you and move your speakers in to 5' in front of you and 7' apart. No room treatments will yield this much bass improvements.

Lift all speaker, power, and interconnects wires 8" off any non wool carpet or tile .

Remove the speaker cloth or foam grill and snip off the plastic phase ring....treble will be improved as much as 100%.

Almost all speakers are on stands that are too tall (24" and up). Try them on the floor tilted back with a wood or metal block under the front.

Haven't tried these but may work on one or two and get back to you.

[Tarheel]

Should have proofed and then posted. Please replace "to" with too and "there" with their.

There.....much better!

[Islander]

You can actually edit your post after it's posted. Don't know for how long. Just hit the "edit" button.

[Tarheel]

Thanks Pat....that would have been easier.

Chuck

[jacksonbart]

So to still use the analogy of automobiles and typical multple component audio system people own on this forum, then lets say car manufactorers sold car bodies, suspensions, tires all as mix and match components. Well you can talk about the quality of the leather on your seats all you want, but the tires and suspensions will contribute much more to the cars handling ability.

Wonderful. We will use your example to point out the fallacy of your premise. The cars performance will be dictated primarily by its chassis, suspension, transmission and motor, ie. source, speakers, and amplification. The body of the car (room) enhances or restricts that potential as do the auxillary systems. A Ferrari body does nothing for me if I stick a Yugo engine and transmission in it while a VW Jetta will fly with a Porsche engine and tranny.

Are we done with rooms yet? Oh, your other post. The problems you suggested are easily remedied with common sense and speaker placement.

Thank you.

you brought up the car anology, but your entitled to your generalizations.

[anarchist]

your an idiot, but your entitled to your generalizations

That may be so but if I were to call someone an idiot, I would make damn sure I utilized a grammatically correct sentence to do so less I reveal I was, in fact, the idiot.

PS. Well done to the fellow who modified the car analogy. Enjoyed the correction. Quite funny.

[jacksonbart]

The component is producing exactly the same sound. What you hear is different. No matter how you spin it, the equipment is creating the sound and the room is impacting certain elements of it.

Well there you have it, so there is sound seperate from what we hear? Wow, now that makes no sense.

[anarchist]

The component is producing exactly the same sound. What you hear is different. No matter how you spin it, the equipment is creating the sound and the room is impacting certain elements of it.

Well there you have it, so there is sound seperate from what we hear? Wow, now that makes no sense.

Ok, shultz, let me explain it so you may understand it. I will try to make this brief and simple. Turn on your stereo. Listen. Lay down and place a pillow over your head. Listen. You now hear something quite different however the sound being reproduced by the system has not changed.

[DrWho]

If I place those speakers in an open place or the equipment for that matter, I eliminate the room.

So do you drag gear outside before commenting on it? Cuz that would be hardcore if you did.

[DrWho]

Rooms will mostly interact with speakers to change the frequency response.

So in what way does the room interact with the speakers to change the frequency response? I'm not disagreeing at all, just curious what system you associate with the effects...

The room will have nothing to do (or very little) with grain, tone, clarity hardness, distortion and so on which are characteristics found in amplifiers and preamplifiers.

I agree, characteristics of amps and preamps aren't going to be affected by the room []

I would argue though that the room has its own effects on tone, clarity, imaging, harshness, intelligibility, fatigue, boominess shrillness, etc...

Rooms with a bit of lumpiness or some valleys really bother some people, and not bother others too much. I am never that obsessed with frequency response. Even the best halls I have been in have FR problems. You can make the FR as flat as a pancake and if you have a brittle, grainy amplifiers, it will sound like crap.

I'm not hugely obsessed with FR either. It's the time domain behavior of a room that I'm concerned about. Nevertheless, I've found that there is still a lot of merit to having a flat frequency response...maybe not in the sense of gobs of negative feedback, but I don't think anybody is going there...

[mas]

There are qualities which
are intrinsic to the amplifier, speaker, source, or preamp and there are those
impacted by the room.

Duh, ya think?

You know you have a valid
point when Anachronism shows up and gets his panties in a wad.

Bottom line, the effect of
the room on the resultant sound is greater than any particular component of a
reasonably designed piece of electronics. And these acoustical effects can 'trump' the advantages of the electronics.

And it is also a factor
that impacts almost every installation negatively unless steps are taken to
minimize this. And the potential negative acoustical impact of the speaker/room
interaction is more than able to offset any improvement in a given piece of reasonably
designed electronic equipment.

Speaking generally, greater
improvement in the overall system response will be realized by making
improvements in the realm of speaker/room interaction than in any other part of
the system chain (other than your basic selection of speakers).

So, if you want the biggest return on your investment and
your effort, addressing the acoustical anomalies is the place to invest your
time and effort.

It would be a really nice
and radical change if some would emerge from the dark ages of audio
and enlarge their understanding and appreciate this fact. It presents no threat to their equipment, nor to the modifications they might wish to make.

But there is a
modicum of entertainment value in watching some so desperately hold on to their
old ideas in light of more modern advancements in understanding. And while this
is fun to watch, I would suggest that more get off of their knees and quit
crawling around on the ground for fear of inadvertently falling off of the edge
of their flat world.

[DrWho]

Not in trouble at all AFAIK. The only problem is that whilst generally one can get a vague idea of the sort of sound someone might be enjoying according to their musical tastes and equipment they own, for rooms it is nigh on impossible to get a real impression.

Impossible? I am certainly no master on the subject, but if you could obtain an impulse response of your room, I could convolve it with my music and get an idea of what your room sounds like by listening on headphones. I forget the term for the technique, but I've seen/experienced it numerous times....it's almost freaky.

To do this sort of thing on here would need lots and lots of pictures - descriptions of the room, the perceived issues, measurements, details on construction etc. etc. It is not impossible - just really really tricky and as so much room "treatments" is based on try it and see (hear) it could take weeks if not months to get some results.

I beg to differ that the acoustical treatment process revolves around try it and hear it...if that were the case, it would really suck to treat some of the larger venues - like churches where you're mounting stuff high in the air and gotta navigate around the pews...

Acoustical treatment can very much be a surgical process - it just requires one to be using the right tool. But hey, I suppose one could find a way to drive in a screw with a hammer []

Even something as simple as positioning my sub and adjusting the volume and X-over points took me 6 months to get spot on (to my tastes of course) and I AM HERE!!!

Yikes! Do you find that an acceptable amount of time to dial in your system?