How your room impacts how you hear sound

[PhilMays]

My 6 year old son went to the potty the other night...THAT WAS an energy source![:|]

[PhilMays]

What I know.

My theater used to be in a room of 320 sq ft. of volume. It now resides in a room of 1,500 sq ft of volume. I had to abandon the 150 WPC amp in favor for 250 WPC amps in order to regain that "in your face ummph".

That was my technical explanation.

Now, I have always toyed with building a set of speakers. I understand, somewhat, that the VAS has to be correct for the speaker in it's enclosure or it will sound like crap.

Is the same true, somewhat, on the exterior room volume. If so, isn't that a case where the room size and shape can effect the sound.

I'm not smart enough to debate whether 100WPC reacts differently in the Grand Canyon as apposed to my closet.

[maxg]

Robert - you're not taking this very well are you.

So Max, you and your cohort (I have a cohort? - lets keep this from SWMBO shall we) are stating an amp placed in a hallway closet will produce an electrical signal entirely differently from that amp if placed in a bedroom. And an amp in my bedroom (where it is subjected to various, uh, vibrations) will produce an electrical signal entirely different from that same amp located in your bedroom.

Nyet. If there are no speakers attached to the amp it will produce very similar results in most locations. Where it is playing in a scenario where there is potential for feedback both from the speakers and from the original source - such as a TT then potentially the output from the amp will be different from one location to another- subject to the feedback it is getting. No-one claimed entirely different - actually the reverse - that we cannot be sure it is the same.

With those facts firmly established, you both agree that offering any advice on anything (we do?) - whether it be a preamp, amp, speaker or room improvements - is an utterly worthless enterprise and we are all just wasting our time. (well maybe we are - it is not an unpleasant way to waste time, however.) Therefore, the entire premise of this thread - why don't we argue more about room improvements rather than discuss equipment - is a red herring because there is no point in making any suggestions because ultimately they have no bearing.

Making recommendations on a forum where you are removed from another persons experience, setup, room, preferences etc. etc. is fraught with the possibility of error. Generally a large part of forum correspondence is absorbed with attempting to get to grips with some of this information. If in possession of a significant portion of the above information one can venture to suggest alternatives in equipment, treatments etc but it is usually a good idea to caveat that advice with a YMMV or IMHO etc. because it can be horribly wrong for that individual in their circumstance.

So we can put up a FAQ to respond to any and all requests for opinions that states: our opinions mean nothing and whatever choices you make are of little consequence because the audio signal will never be the same. There is no good, there is no bad, there just is... unless you are in the other room and then it may or may not be.

We could - but then what we do with all our free time?

Best defence against sarcasm on a forum - candour. Rule 53.

[pauln]

Will anyone agree that the individual listener's mind is the biggest contributing factor to what they hear? I think one's background, experience, temperature/humidity (personal comfort), tastes, learning, cultural exposure, energy level, season of the year, attention span, softness/firmness of seating furniture, age, religious/philosophical leanings, outlook, attitude, interest, room color and feel, whether you just finished a tweak, and blood alcohol level, among many other things have a more combined overall mental influence on the perceived and experienced sound of music than all the rest of the chain combined. Do I has a witness? Is it any wonder that some folks swear by seemingly crazy things like clocks, colored foil, pebbles, and dare I say; cables, caps, pointy feet, and interconnects?

That said, I tend to rank the influences in the chain like this:

Mind -> Speakers -> Room -> Source -> Amps : for medium / loud listening above 90dB

Mind -> Speakers -> Source -> Amps -> Room : with low level listening up around 90dB

Does this square with others' experience?

[polvoloco]

Not at all. I've always kept my speakers (from Sanyo and Altec's to my current Cornwalls) at a little more than six and a half feet apart with fab results. I came upon this set up one long, debauchery filled weekend when, living in a large, one room house I decided to find the ideal speaker placement. after some hours, and some scotch, I found that the long vs. short wall had a smaller discernible difference than if the speakers moved closer together/ further apart. And, after some tinkering, I found just shy of seven feet to be optimal. I have continued, these last twenty years, to use the same rule of thumb; always with great results.

All of that being said, sometimes it's hard to squeeze those mammoth speakers pleasingly into a seven foot window...

P.S. Whoops, I was reading this post from the beginning and, sort of, jumped in at the wrong spot. My apologies

[merkin]

"Will anyone agree that the individual listener's mind is the biggest contributing factor to what they hear? I think one's background, experience, temperature/humidity (personal comfort), tastes, learning, cultural exposure, energy level, season of the year, attention span, softness/firmness of seating furniture, age, religious/philosophical leanings, outlook, attitude, interest, room color and feel, whether you just finished a tweak, and blood alcohol level, among many other things have a more combined overall mental influence on the perceived and experienced sound of music than all the rest of the chain combined. Do I has a witness? Is it any wonder that some folks swear by seemingly crazy things like clocks, colored foil, pebbles, and dare I say; cables, caps, pointy feet, and interconnects?

That said, I tend to rank the influences in the chain like this:

Mind -> Speakers -> Room -> Source -> Amps : for medium / loud listening above 90dB

Mind -> Speakers -> Source -> Amps -> Room : with low level listening up around 90dB

Does this square with others' experience?"

Pauln,

You forgot alcohol. It can have a major effect on perception and judgement. (let alone mood)

[merkin]

Is there a class or thread on room acoustics 101. I started reading MAS on large room and small room and it started feeling like going to class in college again. I read awhile and my mind drifts. I guess the ADD sets in and I don't remember what I read. Maybe I need a room acoustics for idiots book.

[anarchist]

Robert - you're not taking this very well are you.

Sure I am. I was just playing off your "cat in the box" routine.

You guys are tossing theoreticals out there that, while they muddy the waters, are insignificant IMO and until you can demonstrate through objective performance data those electrical signals do change and change significantly, I simply view them as "cat in the box" mental masturbation. I would still recommend a JM preamp or VRD's regardless of whether they were in a closet, bathroom, or living room. Klipschorns might not be the best choice for a closet however or a sun room or a bathroom.

I enjoy your logical exercises Max and enjoy the contrarian stance you like to take.

PS. It was cohort not consort. :^) I doubt your wife will mind... although you do live in Greece. []

PSS. Yes, pauln, I will.

[dtel]

I just read through the 6 pages, it does seem to take the normal twist and turns.

Starts out innocent enough, with polite exchanges, then a few little cat fights with a little name calling for good measure.

Then an all out battle of words , then it kinds of burns out when a comedian or two steps in, a little more fighting, then it starts to calm down and a few more jokes then it just dies off.

If nothing else it seems to be a regular routine, of course there are about 1000 good points made , just mixed in everywhere.

Just an observation, nothing wrong, carry on . And thanks for the entertainment and information !

And DrWho next time you walk in a room to take a listen, wet your clothes down, throw a piece of Persian rug over your shoulder and hold your laptop up in the air, the sound will be completely different !

Someone has to throw out something compleatly off the wall ! []

[oldtimer]

Max:

You dont put piles of insulation, plants, wet clothes and blankets in your corners - you spread them around the room.

At our house we have been inadvertently succeeding through clutter! Maybe curtains instead of blinds would do even more, but I like a clean look. (How's that for contradiction)

Dtel, How's this for completely off the wall?

[mas]

Maybe I need a room acoustics for idiots book.

Oh, its here. But you just have to do a bit of searching. Just query the Anachronist's posts.

Definitely of, by, and for idjets. And ADD is a definate advantage when reading them.

[dtel]

Oldtimer, sounds good to me !

Is that one of those " special " sound correcting earth shaped things hanging from the ceiling ? A couple of wet Persian rugs, or was it insulating plants, can't recall what is the correct order would work in front of the blinds, for sure.

Your babies are safe, don't worry I never forgot ! You live north of Houston or is it north of Dallas, I can't remember ?

The reason I asked is My sister is going to Houston in about 3 weeks, and it got me thinking.

[mas]

dtel, do you folks run into many 'climbing hydrangeas' over your way?

And I am in disparate need of advice on a ground cover that will live under a large magnolia (in other words, 'on the moon') and is low maintenance in the sense that it does not 'hold' leaves well (meaning it can be blown clean when the many oak (and magnolia) leaves fall)? Oh, and that lives in the North Texas (DFW) semi-arid landscape - although irrigation is available...

How's that for asking for the impossible?[]

[maxg]

"I simply view them as "cat in the box" mental masturbation. I would still recommend a JM preamp or VRD's regardless of whether they were in a closet, bathroom, or living room. Klipschorns might not be the best choice for a closet however or a sun room or a bathroom."

I think I did too when I originally posted it - now I am not so sure. I have always assumed, as you have done on here that in any given room the source (being the whole system from source to speaker in this case) is constant from room to room and that only the accoustics change the result within the listening room. I now think this goes a step further in that the room is probably affecting the actual sonic output from the devices themselves.

What the last few pages of this discussion has highlighted it that there is no way to tell. This is interesting to me as it is something I have never considered. It appears that the interaction between room and speaker may indeed be a 2 way process - each is affecting the other. Certainly the interaction between room and source is 2 way when dealing with vinyl.

I recall a friend's system that was running a TT and a CD player with a pair of B&W 802's in a smaller room. When playing the CD there was no problem. When playing with the TT however the woofers on the speakers vibrated wildly as soon as the volume started to climb - to the point that he actually burned the woofers and had to replace them.

Playing the same system with a pair of B&W CDM1's the woofers behaved perfectly. We surmised after some time and a lot of play that the woofers on the 802's were loading the room so heavily with base that the cartridge was picking up the vibration and running it back through the system in what seemed to be an escalating loop.

What we had not considered is that back EMF from the speakers (caused by reflections from the room back onto the surface of the woofers) might also have been exacerbating the problem.

Is any of this important - don't know - might be mental masturbation - might not be.

MAS has been beating the drum of the importance of the speaker/room interaction for some time. If this is indeed a 2 way process as it appears it may well be then it just could be that it is even more important that he realized (unless he already knew all of this).

I dont have the answers - I am not even sure I have the questions yet but I am trying to figure this out on a logical level rather than a math / physics basis as I lack the knowledge to do it that way.

Does any of this affect our ability to recommend components for use in a system? To a small extent I would say yes at this point. As you yourself say "Klipschorns might not be the best choice for a closet however or a sun room or a bathroom." We already knew this - we just might have stumbled on a bit more of the reason why.

[dtel]

Mas

What about dwarf monkey grass ? I think in some areas they call it Mondo grass.

There are 3 different sizes, the dwarf is about 2 or 3 inches tall, the normal or most common is about 8 or 10 inches tall. the last and largest is about 12 to 18 inches tall, it's called evergreen giant liriope. All are very tough and should do well where you live.

We use the dwarf on jobs when we need something like in the cracks between stepping stones or in areas in the walkway where there may be a green space, but also can be walked on regularly without any damage .

The cheapest and easiest to find is the common , medium size, it's the dark green grass you see people outline walkways or sometimes garden beds with. When you plant it under a tree it can spread and fill in and eventually make a thick patch under the whole tree, and it is tough, and you could walk through it to blow the leaves off with no damage. Also however you get it it can be separated down by the root, every few blades of leaves has it's own little bulb with roots, which also makes it easy to plant when you don't have very deep soil or it's full of roots.

Look it up on the computer to see what it looks like and If you don't like the way that looks let me or my wife know and we can think of something else.

If you can't find it let me know and I will look up the Latin name , so you can find it, just off my head I think it's called Mondo or monkey grass.

Almost forgot, don't know about the 'climbing hydrangeas' , sorry.

Edit : Here is a couple of pic's. http://www.monrovia.com/PlantInf.nsf/715018c0a554020088256f1600604920/09c54d4dafa4afe78825684d0071ee74!OpenDocument

[anarchist]

Max,

I will point out one minor thing. Or maybe a couple while trying to ignore "mas mierda's bait" once again. We - just about everyone on the planet with more than a casual interest in audio - have known about speaker/room interaction. Refer to my Klipschorns in the bathroom. Most have known that a microphonic tube or an undamped turntable would feedback into the amplifier and have correlated the conditioning worsening as you increased the volume. Its not necessarily the room loading as it could be placement of a phono preamp too closely to the speaker. Stick your equipment outside and place your turntable in front of the speaker and you can generate the same result. Feedback is not unique to the room and the problems are easily remedied by replacing the tube or damping your turntable. In any case, the amplification is not changing and instead is merely amplifying the source signal, therefore any recommendations on amps, preamps, etc. don't become invalid because Tom now uses them in his room instead of yours.

Which brings me to the point of the thread initially which was "why don't we argue about rooms as much as equipment" and to which I continue to state room improvements are unique to the room and can't be readily defined over a forum.

As far as the fellow, merkin, who asked about acoustics 101. My advice is to open up another browser, do a quick search on google for room mode calculator and home theater construction diy and you will find plenty of information about designing and constructing rooms specifically for audio, acoustical treatments, room mode calculators, etc. Frankly, you can find and learn more there in 15 minutes than you will if you read every single post "mas mierda" ever wrote here AND your ADD won't come into play because it is far more interesting than reading one of "mas mierda's" posts.

[jacksonbart]

Robert - you're not taking this very well are you.

Sure I am. I was just playing off your "cat in the box" routine.

You guys are tossing theoreticals out there that, while they muddy the waters, are insignificant IMO and until you can demonstrate through objective performance data those electrical signals do change and change significantly, I simply view them as "cat in the box" mental masturbation. I would still recommend a JM preamp or VRD's regardless of whether they were in a closet, bathroom, or living room. Klipschorns might not be the best choice for a closet however or a sun room or a bathroom.

I enjoy your logical exercises Max and enjoy the contrarian stance you like to take.

PS. It was cohort not consort. :^) I doubt your wife will mind... although you do live in Greece. []

PSS. Yes, pauln, I will.

Electrical signals change due to rooms? No, the title of the thread is how the room impacts how we hear sound. Not how does a room impact an electrical component. I am not sure how you listen to music, but I believe 99.99% listen to it via sound waves that travel through the air. Those waves interact with the room they are in. You are too early in the process.

[maxg]

Robert - you're not taking this very well are you.

Sure I am. I was just playing off your "cat in the box" routine.

You guys are tossing theoreticals out there that, while they muddy the waters, are insignificant IMO and until you can demonstrate through objective performance data those electrical signals do change and change significantly, I simply view them as "cat in the box" mental masturbation. I would still recommend a JM preamp or VRD's regardless of whether they were in a closet, bathroom, or living room. Klipschorns might not be the best choice for a closet however or a sun room or a bathroom.

I enjoy your logical exercises Max and enjoy the contrarian stance you like to take.

PS. It was cohort not consort. :^) I doubt your wife will mind... although you do live in Greece. []

PSS. Yes, pauln, I will.

Electrical signals change due to rooms? No, the title of the thread is how the room impacts how we hear sound. Not how does a room impact an electrical component. I am not sure how you listen to music, but I believe 99.99% listen to it via sound waves that travel through the air. Those waves interact with the room they are in. You are too early in the process.

Jackson,

My fault - I semi hijacked your thread chasing a rabbit called back emf that implies that room:system interface is 2 way. and that actually the electrical signals coming from the amp would indeed change.

It is probably a nebulous concept so I will park it here.

[anarchist]

And the question you posed jacksonbart was how come we don't argue more about room treatments than we do the components.

If now the question is "does the room affect what is heard", we already answered that one page 1 and there was no need for this thread because the answer is an undisputed yes and always has been.

[jacksonbart]

Robert - you're not taking this very well are you.

Sure I am. I was just playing off your "cat in the box" routine.

You guys are tossing theoreticals out there that, while they muddy the waters, are insignificant IMO and until you can demonstrate through objective performance data those electrical signals do change and change significantly, I simply view them as "cat in the box" mental masturbation. I would still recommend a JM preamp or VRD's regardless of whether they were in a closet, bathroom, or living room. Klipschorns might not be the best choice for a closet however or a sun room or a bathroom.

I enjoy your logical exercises Max and enjoy the contrarian stance you like to take.

PS. It was cohort not consort. :^) I doubt your wife will mind... although you do live in Greece. []

PSS. Yes, pauln, I will.

Electrical signals change due to rooms? No, the title of the thread is how the room impacts how we hear sound. Not how does a room impact an electrical component. I am not sure how you listen to music, but I believe 99.99% listen to it via sound waves that travel through the air. Those waves interact with the room they are in. You are too early in the process.

Jackson,

My fault - I semi hijacked your thread chasing a rabbit called back emf that implies that room:system interface is 2 way. and that actually the electrical signals coming from the amp would indeed change.

It is probably a nebulous concept so I will park it here.

Ok, I understand now.

Anarchist - I did imply that many here do appear to spend much more time using equipment to get thier sound as the way they want it than using room treatments. As I mentioned, speakers and source are very important, so varying those to me make sense, whether using different CD players, SACD, LPs, changing the arms, mats, etc. But a "properly functioning" amp, pre-amp, cables, have IMO and experiance have less of an impact on the sound one hears than the room. People are free to express thier experiances and opinions I am not saying they can't rave about an amp, but again, I have found a room to have more of an impact. Move the system into a room with different attributes and listen. Massive changes to an existing room can be $$$$ but so can buying new amps, preamps and cables every year with less impact, there are also less expensive things one could try to (I should not say improve) but taylor ones sound. The point of this thread was not to offer specific advise to fix your room, but simply discuss why those discussion dominate, you have offered your opinion.