How do Tubes sound?

[DrWho]

I'm trying to decide if what I heard is a common occurence or just what can be expected.

Well you already know most of my opinions [] I'm yet to hear tubes that don't make bass guitar or piano sound like a washtub. There's the exception of the VRD's, but them's was played on lascalas (let's not go there). I'd argue that the mids between good examples of both topologies are going to be very similar. SS certainly has potential to sound grainy, making the high-hat sound like a mix of rain and hail on a metal roof - whereas tubes generally roll off the highs. Sure, you can still hear the high frequency instruments and even get a sense of the space that is provided by the higher frequencies, and it's even more natural to rolloff slowly like that, but I find it annoying when listening to the lower level detail in the background - like the very soft quiet instruments in the back will dissapear. I think tubes sound better for horns, guitar and vocals, whereas SS sounds better for bass, drums, piano, and strings. Electronic music/instruments tend to sound like crap on tubes (and like crap with bad SS too). There is definitely a sense of realism and presense that is offered with tubes, but I think it grows old after a while - it's similar to the same improvements you get with tubes on guitar - by no means more accurate, but a pleasant sound. I don't want that extra sound overlayed on every instrument though - I think I'm especially sensitive to strings since I "play" viola. This extra presence or whatever doesn't really lend itself well to complicated passages of music either - where I've found tubes have a hard time maintaining seperation and dynamics - especially if there's a wide range of frequencies being played all at once (ie, full orchestra blasting away). If you get it pushing really hard you'll notice a lot of pumping with the dynamics...almost like a misconfigured compressor. Usually you don't notice the warbling going on at higher frequencies since the sounds that cause them to pulsate tend to draw your attention towards themselves, not to mention it's going to be source material dependant too.

For those that don't know me...I'm by no means a tube expert or an expert of any kind really, but I have heard quite a number of tube amps in apparently good configurations so I'm not totally making crap up. Heck, I would be far more creative if that were the case. I'm not sure if you were looking for a SS vs. tubes thing and I hope this doesn't turn into flames...it's all just opinions based on past experiences anyway. Seeing as it's pretty much one or the other, these kinds of comparisons are bound to come up.

What kind of music were you hoping to listen to with your khorns?

[meagain]

"Electronic music/instruments tend to sound like crap on tubes" Oh IDK about that one either!

Who - So what SS amp do you feel is good?

[gonzp]

Mike,

To me tubes sound effortless in all of the frequencies, with the right speakers. I have heard high powered solid state through a pair of DQ-10's and it sounded very good. Tube amps to me, seem to give air to the notes. The sound does not sound forced or like anything is attached to it. When I hear a crash cymbal smacked I can hear it decay. The bass from the k-horns is punchy, quick and real, not bloated. I noticed seperation and more definition between the instruments. Klipsch speakers are the all tell magnifying glass in the audio chain. They definately bring forward the strengths and/or weakness' of upstream gear.

I am probably one of the only people that listens to my VRD's in triode mode. In triode mode I feel that I have got the midrange extension, great solid bottom end and the airyness that any SET amp will deliver, with the headroom to crank it up and, not have the amp fall on it's face. In Ultralinear mode I have got 60 watts of tube power that will definately drive the woofers on the k-horns. I have found the option of running the VRD's in triode mode is for me.

Patrick, love your comments about VRDs in triode mode - and I agree with your characterizations about the VRDs and the sound of tubes in general.

Actually, I bet that a few of us listen to VRDs in that mode, and I personally spend quite a bit of time in triode.

That being said, its great to have UL when you want it.........

Carl.

Ahhhhh, so there are some more that listen in triode!! I really like to listen to the VRD's in triode when I am listening to the ceedee player. UL with vinyl. The VRS's are definately listener friendly, I have got options that most tube amp owners don't have!

[meagain]

Gonzp - What is your rationale for CD's in Triode and Vinyl with UL? I'm trying to understand why you'd prefer one mode over the other depending on source?

[gonzp]

Recordings, some older ceedee recordings seem to be shrill. I think triode mode mellows them down a bit.

[HarryO]

Good morning Doc,

What kind of music do I listen to? Hmm, let's see here. At home I'd say my preferences depend on my mood. A lot of Blues, Rock, lighter Jazz, let me look at the latest stack of cd's and vinyl that hasn't been put up yet, Clapton Pilgrim on the TT from last night, Melissa Ethridge, Iron Butterfly, Santana , Trower, Billy Cobham, early 70's stuff. When I go out I listen to variety bands that play some country and semi Rock.(that's where the women are and cold long neckers), Concerts of many kinds. I love music. I played in bands over the years, some of my best friends still play, (we have some good home grown bands here in Indiana), I just thought about it, but most of the musicians are still using tube amps on their equipment. (SS for PA and DJ), oh yea, Motown, Stones, Beatles are always good. Just normal stuff for an old fart my age. I do work on sound equipment for a buddy that's a sound man with his own studio (Monfort). I'm not saying tubes play LOUDER, just the normal hitting of the music seems driven much better. Stereotyping anything is silly. I buy and sell audio equipment.Ebay and audiogon, my business. Let's just say as a whole, tubes sound better to ME. I like SS. I like tube. It's like any other part of the audio world, There is NO ONE perfect piece. Please, enjoy what you like in the way you like. Hey, what do I know, I like the sound of a properly driven K-600 & K-55. I prefer the Crites CT125 over a K-77 generally. After all, it's all about personal tastes and enjoying the music. AND the equipment. It's a killer hobby/passion that apparently we all enjoy. I love a good keyboard player Doc. I love live music best.I personally "get a rush" from a good Strat player. I seem to be able to re-create the live sound best with the tubes I'm running. The live "presence" is there like I'm sitting in front of the band.

I just had my hearing checked at the VA. It's still good. Though a bit selective I'm sure. My ears though I guess.

and about Crown, they ain't made sh.. since Harman dug their claws in. Just like they did to JBL, vega, epi, Infinity, etc. Just MY opinion

HarryO

[Guest " "]

The forum really needs some tube gear to be passed around for those who have only heard washtub grade gear.

[HarryO]

Not a bad idea at all SF, OTOH, maybe they should come hear it set up right and can judge for themselves. If properly set up and "tube tuned in" it's hard to beat. BTW, beautiful amp buddy. I'm jealous!

HarryO

[DrWho]

"Electronic music/instruments tend to sound like crap on tubes" Oh IDK about that one either!

Who - So what SS amp do you feel is good?

Since pro amps have been mentioned a bit in this thread, I would highly recommend the Crown K2 or Studio Reference Series. I know they've got crazy power handling, but that's not why I like them. The Aragon and Bryston amplifiers are really nice too - I can't remember any of the specific models, but all the ones I've heard so far are really nice. I know I'm forgetting a few others, but I've pretty much always been satisfied with any amp that you might find in the studio. If you're on more of a budget, all the HK 430,630,730 series amps are quite satisfactory...I know my 630 needs the caps replaced in it though and I'm sure many others do too. While I'm at it I'm going to update all of the connection jacks - and perhaps strip out the amplifier section since I don't need any of the preamp or tuner features...maybe split it into two mono amplifier sections with pretty heater lights on the top so that it looks more audiophile []

[NOSValves]

I find it interesting that the person with the least experience with the sound of tube amps around the forum seems to be the most frequent poster in a thread asking about the sound of tubes...........very puzzleling []

[DrWho]

What kind of music do I listen to? Hmm, let's see here. At home I'd say my preferences depend on my mood. A lot of Blues, Rock, lighter Jazz, let me look at the latest stack of cd's and vinyl that hasn't been put up yet, Clapton Pilgrim on the TT from last night, Melissa Ethridge, Iron Butterfly, Santana , Trower, Billy Cobham, early 70's stuff. When I go out I listen to variety bands that play some country and semi Rock.(that's where the women are and cold long neckers), Concerts of many kinds. I love music. I played in bands over the years, some of my best friends still play, (we have some good home grown bands here in Indiana), I just thought about it, but most of the musicians are still using tube amps on their equipment. (SS for PA and DJ), oh yea, Motown, Stones, Beatles are always good. Just normal stuff for an old fart my age. I do work on sound equipment for a buddy that's a sound man with his own studio (Monfort). I'm not saying tubes play LOUDER, just the normal hitting of the music seems driven much better. Stereotyping anything is silly. I buy and sell audio equipment.Ebay and audiogon, my business. Let's just say as a whole, tubes sound better to ME. I like SS. I like tube. It's like any other part of the audio world, There is NO ONE perfect piece. Please, enjoy what you like in the way you like. Hey, what do I know, I like the sound of a properly driven K-600 & K-55. I prefer the Crites CT125 over a K-77 generally. After all, it's all about personal tastes and enjoying the music. AND the equipment. It's a killer hobby/passion that apparently we all enjoy. I love a good keyboard player Doc. I love live music best.I personally "get a rush" from a good Strat player. I seem to be able to re-create the live sound best with the tubes I'm running. The live "presence" is there like I'm sitting in front of the band.

I just had my hearing checked at the VA. It's still good. Though a bit selective I'm sure. My ears though I guess.

and about Crown, they ain't made sh.. since Harman dug their claws in. Just like they did to JBL, vega, epi, Infinity, etc. Just MY opinion

lol, we need to meet up the next time I'm in Indy. Sounds like you and Colter have similar tastes in music and come from similar backgrounds too. It's gotta be a riot with you two in the same room. I don't care for that boring jazz stuff (apparently I'm told not enough drugs is the problem), but I love everything that rocks from the 70's and 80's. I wouldn't consider most of the recordings to be of the highest fidelity though - not sure if others have had the same experiences (and I'm talking any medium...vinyl, cd's, reel-to-reel...). Not being from the era I don't know which versions of the albums shine the best. Anyways, I would love to be introduced to some good sounding tubes so if you're up for serving some crow, I'm willing to eat it.

[mas]

...with pretty heater lights on the top so that it looks more audiophile []

How does a college kid know this stuff?

Neat..I like pretty lights!

As far as SS, the Crown K2, Macro and Reference amps are nice. Good post... []

[stormin]

"Electronic music/instruments tend to sound like crap on tubes" Oh IDK about that one either!

Who - So what SS amp do you feel is good?

Since pro amps have been mentioned a bit in this thread, I would highly recommend the Crown K2 or Studio Reference Series. I know they've got crazy power handling, but that's not why I like them. The Aragon and Bryston amplifiers are really nice too - I can't remember any of the specific models, but all the ones I've heard so far are really nice.

Doc,

You need to give a listen to a big QSC. Much more horn friendly than the ones you have listed. And thats without a tubed preamp.

[DrWho]

Any particular QSC model in mind? I don't think they have any without fans??? (that's why I didn't mention the macro-tech). We run a bunch of QSC amps at work, but have the macro/micro-tech amps running with the nicer systems...

[meagain]

Who - You are SO going to have to visit when I get my VRDs back from a checkup. I want you to hear my system and I want you to compare it in your head with the other khorn systems you've heard. (stock 1993 ak-3 khorns with a bad false wall, VRDs, Peach, Jolida JD-100 CDP, in what many would consider an innappropriate room set up.)

[stormin]

Any particular QSC model in mind? I don't think they have any without fans??? (that's why I didn't mention the macro-tech). We run a bunch of QSC amps at work, but have the macro/micro-tech amps running with the nicer systems...

Doc,

The only one I've spent anytime with is the SRA 2422 . Quiet as a church mouse. I believe you could actually launch these K48's with it.But with the same damping factor as the Crown K2 it will obviously control the woofers. Has a wide soundstage but rather 2 dimensional. Probably a character flaw of all pro amps I dunno. With my Marantz 2325 as a pre I get a warm lively sound and lots of tone controls if I so desire. This set up does lack the air of more elaborate gear or nice tube equipment such as my Audible Illusions pre. I understand alot of folks rock out with tubes and I need to listen to alot more of whats out there. But I most definetly have a system built for rockin out. Can almost bring the walls down without a sub if so desired.

[Audio Flynn]

I'm trying to decide if what I heard is a common occurence or just what can be expected.

Well you already know most of my opinions [] I'm yet to hear tubes that don't make bass guitar or piano sound like a washtub. There's the exception of the VRD's, but them's was played on lascalas (let's not go there). I'd argue that the mids between good examples of both topologies are going to be very similar. SS certainly has potential to sound grainy, making the high-hat sound like a mix of rain and hail on a metal roof - whereas tubes generally roll off the highs. Sure, you can still hear the high frequency instruments and even get a sense of the space that is provided by the higher frequencies, and it's even more natural to rolloff slowly like that, but I find it annoying when listening to the lower level detail in the background - like the very soft quiet instruments in the back will dissapear. I think tubes sound better for horns, guitar and vocals, whereas SS sounds better for bass, drums, piano, and strings. Electronic music/instruments tend to sound like crap on tubes (and like crap with bad SS too). There is definitely a sense of realism and presense that is offered with tubes, but I think it grows old after a while - it's similar to the same improvements you get with tubes on guitar - by no means more accurate, but a pleasant sound. I don't want that extra sound overlayed on every instrument though - I think I'm especially sensitive to strings since I "play" viola. This extra presence or whatever doesn't really lend itself well to complicated passages of music either - where I've found tubes have a hard time maintaining seperation and dynamics - especially if there's a wide range of frequencies being played all at once (ie, full orchestra blasting away). If you get it pushing really hard you'll notice a lot of pumping with the dynamics...almost like a misconfigured compressor. Usually you don't notice the warbling going on at higher frequencies since the sounds that cause them to pulsate tend to draw your attention towards themselves, not to mention it's going to be source material dependant too.

For those that don't know me...I'm by no means a tube expert or an expert of any kind really, but I have heard quite a number of tube amps in apparently good configurations so I'm not totally making crap up. Heck, I would be far more creative if that were the case. I'm not sure if you were looking for a SS vs. tubes thing and I hope this doesn't turn into flames...it's all just opinions based on past experiences anyway. Seeing as it's pretty much one or the other, these kinds of comparisons are bound to come up.

What kind of music were you hoping to listen to with your khorns?

Not a bad comment but when you do not specify brand and model of "good SS" or "bad tubes" your comment is incomplete.

[Guest " "]

"I find it interesting that the person with the least experience with the sound of tube amps around the forum seems to be the most frequent poster in a thread asking about the sound of tubes...........very puzzleling "

Put me in the newbie crowd. I have 5 years that ended 31 years ago, and a 1 year re-entry thats in progress.

The stuff has gotton nicer looking over the last 3 decades.

[HarryO]

NOS, I Definitely fit into your statement. I just got back into them big time. Raising a kid on my own, working, taking care of my father has taken the time away from my music I've always been into. I've had to simplify many things that aren't as important as family. I have the time again now that the kid is older, and I'm taking time for the pleasures in life again. I'm still looking forward to listening to your amps. I hear many good things about them.

HarryO