daveab Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 I'm new to Klipsch and to the world of A/V in general. I have given myself a crash course over the last two weeks. I just purchased a set composed of: 2xRF-82, 1xRC-52, 2xRS-42's, RW-10d. Just waiting for delivery. But to drive this wonderful set of speakers I'm still debating receivers. From reading these forums over and over I ran away from the Onkyos and read up on a love it/hate it approach to Yamahas. The two brands I saw universally well received (pardon the pun) were Harman/Kardon and Denon, along with those Outlaw Audio, Marantz, etc that are out of my price range. I am between these two receivers and looking for your input on both (because I won't be able to sample them). Harman/Kardon AVR-247 -- This model has video upconversion through HDMI and component. It has no phono input (which would require me purchasing a phono preamp for the turntable, which increases the price the 20-30 extra dollars for a cheap phono preamp). Denon AVR-1907/787 (the stats between the models are identical on the website, down to the weight). This doesn't have even an HDMI port but appears to drive the speakers stronger with a rated 85 watts x 7 into 8 full-bandwidth rated (H/K's says 50x each fully driven but 85x at 1kHz). This model does have a phono input for the turntable. Behind this system is an XBox360 and its HD-DVD player (Optical audio out and Hi Def component). Long down the road (maybe christmas or later) I would be looking into a Blu-Ray (possibly in the PS3) player to balance out format wise. What I'm asking from the community is information on each: 1. I'm looking for which better produces a flat-response that doesn't add character (e.g. Onkyo) 2. Better insight into the real-world comparison of those power numbers because Denon doesn't mention all channels fully driven and H/K doesn't do otherwise. 3. Is the advertised video upconversion through the receiver unit a worthwhile advantage? Should I be looking at it as increasing the value of my non-HD dvds or as a fringe benefit of little value? 3. Other subjective factors to consider (WAF isn't an issue). Thanks for any help or suggestions and hello to all of you - Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Boy Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Hey Dave, I have the Outlaw Audio 990 pre amp.. and they just dropped the price to $999, that's alot of pre amp for a grand. pair that with your favorite brand of 5 or 7 channel amp. and you've got yourself a great system for many years to come. I can certainly understand though having a budget and needing to stick to it. I also like Marantz receivers... they may be a big more $ than the HK or Denon, but well worth it too. I went from a Marantz receiver as a pre amp, and was using Marantz mono block amps with it.. so for me to replace the amp, with the Outlaw 990 pre amp just made perfect sense for me about a year ago. I have been very happy I upgraded to a pre amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 www.vanns.com ..................Check them out............... www.outlawaudio.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveab Posted June 7, 2007 Author Share Posted June 7, 2007 Danger, thanks for the suggestion, I've been over to outlaw's website and looked at their product line, its a really solid line if I had the extra $500-600 right now. There's the saying I've seen over and over here: buy the best speakers you can afford, I did that but it cuts my budget on a short-term receiver (4 years max vs 20-30 years for owning the speakers. I'll hand-me-down this one to my parents when I upgrade). I'm looking for something in the range of 33% of the price you suggested, $999 vs the H/K or Denon for something like 30-40% off retail. The reason I can't really splurge is because I just graduated undergrad and will be going into law school. That means: no time to work at a job that will pay anything for 3+ years now, plus 100k in debt after 3 years. So saving now is a must. Also, don't both the H/K and Denon allow pre-out lines so that I can add-on a preamp if I want to drive the speakers further or more cleanly with a separate amp and leave the H/K or Denon to just do pre/pro decoding, upconverting, remote control, etc. Link to the H/K AVR 247 Specifications Link to the Denon AVR- 1907 & 787 The basic thing I want to know is which would be better with my newly acquired Klipsch speakers, between these two good names, which is more able to faithfully reproduce my music and movies? Because I'm so uninitiated, I'm not sure about most of this. Been to Vanns, great site free shipping on 200 lbs of speaker? I tried to mail a hardcover book and USPS wanted to charge me 8 bucks... nuts on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arky Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Dave You can always pick up a used 2 channel amp to drive your mains. This will free up some headroom on whichever avr you choose. Used QSC or Crown pro amps can be had for $300 if you're a careful shopper & will drive those mains with ease. Good luck on the law school gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 After reading the specs , they seem alittle underpowered to me.......Not bad 2 channel, but 5.1 could use more power, I would be looking at higher wattage output in Home theatre mode.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 A high powered Yamaha, Sony reiever ect as long as it is 100 watts all channels driven, will power Klipsch speakers quite nicely.If you can get a Denon or HK that has 80 watts all driven 20-20,000hz would be very nice. Lots of good equipment out there for people just starting out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveab Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 Spkrdctr, H/K only makes 1 model at or above 7x80 all channels driven and its $3.5k Remember this about H/K the all channels driven means that your rears are getting 50 watts steady too. I think H/K uses discrete amps for front and back channels which is in part what limits that 2 channels driven to 65 watts. Given the changing dynamics in a movie or music piece that can have up to 20dB peaks, if its driving those fronts at 50, it should clip on a dynamics increase so reality would be steady running at less wattage anyhow. Also, the All channels driven at 1kHz is 85W! a 35% increase on a 1 freq sample. So the 50W is not by any means the top Wattage it puts out but that there is no way it would do under 50W. Now the distortion is rated at 0.07 and I'm pretty sure I would want to be running it for lower distortion levels around the req'd 0.01 to minimize audible coloration of the sound, so I don't think I want to be solidly at 50W anyway, maybe on peaks. So in many ways it does appear underpowered but because I'm not sure about this stuff a lot of this is fairly speculative. Also, I read that aside from wattage, and from the posts I've read: mas and a few of the other electrical engineering types would be able to tell me how wrong I am about the following. (Like I've warned, I'm on 2-week crash course so far and soaking up what I can.) I read somewhere that the H/K supposedly drives more amps to each channel than some other brands? I don't know what that means toward powering speakers or even whether its a flat out lie, I know Watts = Amps x Voltage but not sure because I thought voltage was fairly constant (110v) Or maybe it's like better computer power supplies that have a stronger or dual 12v rails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveab Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 Arky, That is a really interesting idea! a 2 channel amp to drive the L/R 82's would allow a bunch of +dB headroom for the less sensitive Center and Surrounds. For that setup I'd do what, hookup the mains through the pre-out connections on the rear of the receiver? Do you think I would I have to do some Delay compensation for the circuit time differential between the separate amp and the amp/pro H/K or Denon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arky Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 I've never read of anyone having to do that but i'm not 100% sure. I use a 2 channel & a 5 channel hooked to a pre so you would do the same to your avr as you stated. Amplifiers amplify the signal they recieve & both amps are sent the signal from the same source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Delay due to different distances from speakers to listener is a minor issue in a typical-sized listening room. Delay due to length of cables, or time the signal spends going through a separate amp, is a non-issue outside a lab and is probably almost unmeasurable. Running a separate power amp for the main speakers can give you a lot more power and headroom, but with a really high-power amp you may find that you have insufficient adjustment to bump up the surrounds to match the mains, even with the mains dialed down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveab Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 Sorry this is an edit because I didn't read your post thoroughly. I was wondering about inside the amplifier: its circuitry. If it is not a real world problem then I don't need to worry. I don't have a meticulous ear, the question is largely going to the superficial element of the possibility of an annoying offset and learning about it before I set it up. To note, I was a psych major, nothing EE or ME about me so I am likely talking right out of my *** -- ace ventura style. The basic idea is because I am unfamiliar but attempting to do some reasoning on my own, its a dialectic (not dielectric) process IMO. Would that kind of issue, in regard to a high-powered amp for the mains, only happen at such high SPL levels as to sound moot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 It happened a step at at time. The 7.1 set-up with Paradigm center and surrounds was fine, balance-wise. Then I replaced the main speakers with La Scalas. They're 9 dB more sensitive, so I adjusted the levels accordingly. Still okay. Then I added a 500Wpc Yamaha power amp for the mains. With the mains set at -10 dB and the furthest surrounds set at +10 dB, the surrounds are still 2.5 dB too low and I'm not getting proper surround sound, even at low volume. Yesterday I sent off the payment for a pair of Heresy IIs, which are likely at least 6 or 7 dB more sensitive than the Paradigm Atoms, so that should bring everything back into balance and improve the sound at the same time. If your speakers are comparable to each other in terms of sensitivity, you'll likely have no problem. My issue arose when I combined ultra-sensitive front speakers with a very high-powered amp. In 2-channel, the sound is great, but in surround, I can barely hear the rear speakers. I expect using Heresies for surrounds will solve that when they arrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveab Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 For me the difference would be between 98db sentivity L/R 95dB Center 93dB Surrounds. at only 5dB I shouldn't have the same issue then, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Not if your power amp is under 250-300 watts per channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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