Just purchased the RF-63 setup and.....

[robbyrockets]

I'm running the setup through Denons new AVR-4308CI receiver.

I'm curious as to what Klipsch recommends setting each individual speaker at as far as LARGE or SMALL ?

Also what would be the recommended frequency for each speaker ?

[Zen Traveler]

I don't know if it's relevant on the newer Denons but here is a link to the AVS Forum's "official Audyssey Thread," and what was written about Denon AVRs.I have an older Denon AVR 4806 and this worked for me but I am not sure if this is covered in your manual or if they updated something on the AVR 4308. (Note:Key info in bold at bottom.):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421&highlight=official+audyssey

Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturers spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.

The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a 3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.

In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.

[Darkelf]

If you run the autosetup, it should set these for you. I am running a Denon 3808ci with RF-82s for mains, RC-62 for center, F-2's for surrounds, RT-10d for sub. All speakers are set to large except the RC-62 is set to small. All crossovers are set to 40 except the RC-62 is set to 60(I am not positive but I think the speakers set to large are not affected by the crossover settings, only the speakers set to small).

[Zen Traveler]

Audyssey sets all of my speakers to Large as well. After setup I go to the speaker settings and reset them to Small and this allows the bass in the "Advanced Mode" be diverted to what ever crossover was selected to the speaker be sent to the sub. My RF-7's were at 40 Hz and the others to 60 Hz, with the exception of my RC-7 which is set at 80 Hz. I understood in at least the pre "08" models that if you didn't reset the speakers to Small you would loose the bass info from between the crossover set for the individual speakers that Audyssey set and whatever the Denon bass management was set to. I gather this situation was corrected in the newer Denons but I didn't see any mention of it on the older "Audyssey Owners Thread." [^o)]

[Guest srobak]

Don't even bother EQing them until you have about 40 hours of music through them at medium volume. The sound will change drastically over that period of time while they break in. Some folks will say it's a myth - that's fine. Fact of the matter is the sound quality on my RF-35s changed dramatically up until about 40 to 50 hours, at which point they were playing - with no EQing necessary - in their full glory. When I first hooked them up - I was not impressed... $.02

[Zen Traveler]

Don't even bother EQing them until you have about 40 hours of music through them at medium volume. The sound will change drastically over that period of time while they break in.

I won't even enter this debate again, here. Fwiw, in other discussions I never heard the word "drastically," used when talking about Klipsch speakers and break in. The consensus seems to be at most there may be a slight change in speaker performance but imo, any "dramatic," difference noticed is more than likely the listener getting used to the speaker. Regardless, nothing wrong with doing the setup now and after 40 hours of listening. My 2 cents. ;-)

[robbyrockets]

Lets just pretend that Audyssey doesnt exist, and one had to make the adjustments manually for each speaker in the setup.

I ask this due to the fact that I wasnt thrilled with the way the system sounded after Audyssey had its way.

I presentley have the front stage set to LARGE and the rears to SMALL, with the whole system including the sub sitting at 80hz.

As it sits I get a much fuller sound, Audyssey had the system sounding rather lifeless and tinny with the front stage and sub at 80hz. and the rears at 40hz.

I'm just getting some ideas as to how others have theirs setup, I would like to know what Klipsch recommends as far as size and frequency though, any Klipsch techs here?

[Zen Traveler]

...I presentley have the front stage set to LARGE and the rears to SMALL, with the whole system including the sub sitting at 80hz.

As it sits I get a much fuller sound, Audyssey had the system sounding rather lifeless and tinny with the front stage and sub at 80hz. and the rears at 40hz.

What you describe doesn't sound correct. [^o)] Unless there is flaw in your unit, there is no way that Audyssey would set your rears to 40 Hz and mains to 80 Hz. If anything, it should be the other way around in Advanced on the "Crossover Frequency" selection and only after you set your mains to small. {Edited: This sentence deleted. See my last post for details} If Audyssey is running correctly, imo your RF-83's should have been designated "Large." This is where what I posted above comes into effect.

If you don't want to use Audyssey, I would recommend setting all of your speakers to small and the crossover on the Denon to 80 Hz and start from there. The next thing you may want to try is lowering the RF-63's to 60 Hz and leaving the surrounds at either 80 or 90 Hz.

[Zen Traveler]

.... I am running a Denon 3808ci with RF-82s for mains, RC-62 for center, F-2's for surrounds, RT-10d for sub. All speakers are set to large except the RC-62 is set to small. All crossovers are set to 40 except the RC-62 is set to 60(I am not positive but I think the speakers set to large are not affected by the crossover settings, only the speakers set to small).

This is where I am confused. Do the Denon AVR "XX08" models even give you an option to set speakers designated as Large a separate crossover frequency? Mine does not and that makes sense for the reason you stated. {edit: See my post below}

[Macho Nacho]

Don't even bother EQing them until you have about 40 hours of music through them at medium volume. The sound will change drastically over that period of time while they break in.

I won't even enter this debate again, here. Fwiw, in other discussions I never heard the word "drastically," used when talking about Klipsch speakers and break in. The consensus seems to be at most there may be a slight change in speaker performance but imo, any "dramatic," difference noticed is more than likely the listener getting used to the speaker. Regardless, nothing wrong with doing the setup now and after 40 hours of listening. My 2 cents. ;-)

Agreed, there will not be a drastic change, usually need some time for the woofers to loose up, but I believe the whole break in thing is really your ears getting used to the speakers. Perhaps MC Hammer sound drastically better after break in.

[Zen Traveler]

[

... Perhaps MC Hammer sound drastically better after break in.

LMAO [H]

I just played around with my setup and realized if you have the Subwoofer setup on "LFE + mains" you can get a separate Crossover frequency in Advanced mode. There was a time I liked my system that way with a prior AVR (there was no Advanced mode and setting the crossover at either 60 to 80 Hz) but it seems I get a tighter bass response by letting the Sub handle the lower bass without taxing my AVR any more than I have to. YMMV.

[Guest srobak]

Calm down, Nacho Grande... it is simply an animated gif.

I wish I woulda thought to put the analyzer in the livingroom when I first got the RF's and run a trace and compared it to another a couple weeks later - cause there is certainly a difference from the drivers. While it will be quite a while before I replace these - be certain that when I do, I will certainly have a before and after record using identical media and test noise.

Over the time the highs became more and more detailed, crisp and delicate. The woofers were very peaked in the midrange area at first, sounding rather annoying in all honesty. As more and more music was played through them - the lower end started to become more present and defined and blended in wonderfully with the rest of the maturing sound.

I'm sorry if you disagree - your mileage may vary... I have owned a lot of different speakers over a lot of years and some exhibited more change in their sound than others did, and some not at all... but of all the ones I have owned, including my PA gear when I was mixing bands - these speakers - especially the mains - have made the most noticeable transition out of any. I was actually half tempted to return them because they sounded quite annoying at first, and nothing like the RF's I auditioned in 3 stores and 2 houses.

I played them for hours on end - about 80% of the time I was not even in the house - and made it a point not to touch the eq on the HK. I seriously didn't enjoy listening to them at all at first, but gave them time, and now they are absolutely a pleasure to listen to, and I still haven't EQed them... not planning to either, as they sound damn near perfect. I am pretty critical with what I listen to, and won't listen to crappy sounding speakers... if this wasn't such a big difference, trust me, I wouldn't have brought it up.

From a mechanical engineer's perspective - a speaker is a motor. Plain and simple. There are several factors that effect tension and behaviour of that motor - not limited to the surround, the spider, and the rigidity of the cone itself. Over time - these things do indeed loosen up, and that will have a direct impact on the performance and behaviour of the speaker overall. A speaker is a mechanical device with moving parts. There is a reason why my company doesn't even bother measuring, QCing, speccing and printing our electric motors until they have been run in for at least 100 hours. Prior to that - speeds, temps and other specs are all over the charts and completely inconsistent. Afterwards - things settle down, and accurate reading and performance grading can be had. Mechanical devices alter over time... a brand new motorcycle chain stretches significantly in it's first 250 miles of even well-behaved riding. Afterwards - it requires far less frequent tightening. Same with the cam chains in your car - hence the idler/tension pulley on them. You cannot expect that a speaker is impervious to the laws of mechanical physics.

Either way, I'd like to see what Robbyrockets says in a few weeks about his speakers.

$.02

[Zen Traveler]

Lets just pretend that Audyssey doesnt exist, and one had to make the adjustments manually for each speaker in the setup.

I ask this due to the fact that I wasnt thrilled with the way the system sounded after Audyssey had its way.

...Audyssey had the system sounding rather lifeless and tinny with the front stage and sub at 80hz. and the rears at 40hz...

I realize the caveat to your post but it is a feature on your avr that you may wish to try at least as described on Page 7, and starting with post 189 of the thread I provided a link to earlier: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10676519&highlight=zen#post10676519

It talks about my experience with Audyssey and the success I had with set up after I understood that I was missing some bass information. Given that you thought your system sounded thin and imo, your results seemed abnormal, I would try it again.

If the Denon AVR 4308 is similar to the Denon AVR 4806 there IS an additional setup as the thread explains. As more knowledgeable posters here have said, Audyssey is not the be-all in EQ programing but I like what it does in my setup. In this setup I also would try the "Lfe only" and see if it works. If not I gave it my best shot. Good Luck. :-)

[robbyrockets]

Thanks to all that responded.