Colin Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Bang for the Buck, Output vs. Price If you examine the shake versus price ratio and the excellent charts in “Subwoofers Under the Christmas Tree - December, 2001” by Brian Weatherhead (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/subwoofers-12-2001.html), you quickly see that, as the Stones’ rock classic says “if you try sometimes, you get want you need!” Twenty Hertz is the bottom of the human audible, but not sensory, frequency range at loud sound pressure levels. Using the same idea, but simply dividing the sub’s retail price by the output decibels at 20Hz provides a price/performance ratio for subwoofers. It shows how much 20Hz bang you get for your buck. Divide the KSW-15 price by its output and you get a 2.3 ratio. Divide the Dayton kit by its output and the ration is 6.6. I have not updated my numbers in years, but I added the Epic Conquest in the table. When sorted by their Price/20Hz ratios, the value of subs looks like this: IF SPL at maker model price 20Hz Klipsch used KSW-15 200 87 HSU SFT-2 used 230 93 SVS 20-39 599 91 Dayton Titanic III 15" kit 688 104 Klipsch used LF10 550 80 ACI my Titan 720 88 Klipsch KSW-15 749 87 Pinnacle Baby Boomer 850 74 ACI upgraded Titan 1,050 88 ACI Titan in Cherry 1,200 88 Epic Subwoofers Conquest 1,599 109.3 Atlantic Tech 372-PBM 1,399 90 Legacy-audio Deep impact 1,695 100 Klipsch RSW-15 1,800 93 SVS CS-Ultra 2,295 110 Canton AS 300 1,800 80 Velodyne HGS-18 2,995 101 SVS B-4 3,499 110 Ravel Ultima Sub 30 $5,990 120 Cabasse Saturn 55 19,000 135 Eminent Tech TRW-17 20,000 115 Krell Master Reference 28,000 120 A used KSW-15 sub for a bargain $200 is the best economic value, because it has such a low price. You get a lot of output at 20Hz, for a lot less money than any other sub in this comparison. With most of its output at 60Hz however, the KSW-15 intrudes on the deep end of many big ole horns: Cornwalls and classic Klipsch corner Khorns. It sounds boomy and muddy. Using this 20 Hz ratio, the Parts Express Dayton Titanic III 15" kit is a stand out value (assuming maximum output at 20Hz really is 104dB). It has deep output at a very low price! Output at 25Hz is actually more practical – you will hear a lot more of it in recordings. Ranking the subs by 25 Hz output dropped many of them off the list – because I do not have those numbers. Most subs have more output at 25 Hz than 20Hz. However, I used the 20 Hz output number for 25 Hz for those subs without a decibel measurement at 25 Hz. So the SVS 20-39 tube, which has a lot of output at 25 Hz for $599 (5.7 ratio) comes in second. Here is how the subs rank when sorted by their Price/25 Hz ratios: IF IF SPL at SPL at Maker Model Price 20Hz 25Hz Atlantic Tech T70.1PBM 425 82.2 SVS 20-39 599 91 105.8 PSB Subsonic 5i 529 87 Klipsch used LF10 550 80 90 Velodyne CHT-15 599 92 Dayton Titanic III 15" kit 688 104 105 ACI my Titan 720 88 94 M&K V76 699 87.4 JBL S120PII 799 86.1 Pinnacle Baby Boomer 850 74 81.7 ACI upgraded Titan 1,050 88 94 Cambridge SW Newton P500 800 70.3 B&W ASW675 1,000 85.9 ACI Titan in Cherry 1,200 88 94 Epic Subwoofers Conquest 1,599 109.3 112.3 Legacy-audio Deep impact 1,695 100 110 Bag End Infrasub-12 1,690 80.1 SVS B-4 3,499 110 115 Ravel Ultima Sub 30 $5,990 120 123 Klipsch used KSW-15 200 87 87 HSU SFT-2 used 230 93 93 The picture is very different. There are other important considerations besides merely output and price. Output below 90 dB, for example, is not going to be good enough for most stereo lovers. I choose my ACI Titan not only for its output and price, but also for its steep crossover curves, which let my Khorn bins handle the bass. The SVS and the Parts Express kit are still excellent values, but the Epic stands out for its output! The Revel is a Stereophile magazine favorite – you can see why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Colin, Excuse me but the output of the KSW15 @ 20Hz is very poor. First mags and pro reviewers should inform people about human hearing and what levels it takes to say call it solid,very audible output. Anything under 90dB @ 20 Hz is poor.I had a KSW12 and KSW15...oh my deep bass...what deep bass? They were optimised for 30Hz up,and IMPACT,that they deliver. Start to look above 100dB to call it adequate,and close to 110dB is serious displacement. The chart you posted is incorrect. The Revel does not best an Epik Conquest,not even a close match. The only charts worth posting were dome by Ilkka and CraigSub plus on a English site where they measure subs OUTSIDE..GP measurments. Not in a room,rooms always add and no two rooms are alike. Try the KSW15 nmeasured outside,GP...now we will see. The big Velodyne DD-18 did around 100dB @ 20Hz,where the JL f113 bested it by 3-4dB. The large eD and Epik can belt over 110dB with ease,being amp limited. Anyway...just a rant(as I am at work and taking my break...ranting about subs ! Go figure that one. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thanks for your response Ear (just what the hell do you do with 2-dozen subs anyway?) Yes, the KSW output is poor, that is why I said it is not going to be enough for audiophiles. However, a used one for a few hundred bucks does give out mostly 60Hz bass. Deep bass is not the only that subs are supposed to do well. In fact, the more enjoyable movie subs may not have extremely deep bass, like the Klipsch in the Weatherford article mentioned above. He preferred it as well as the SVS, even though the SVS tube was deeper. My numbers are the manufacturers’ numbers, so they can be wildly inaccurate. But then so can Craigsub’s list. Measured in his own room, his output numbers do not exactly conform to any industry standard, what little there is, for uniform testing of SPL. He does not quantify his listening tests in any scientifically reproducible fashion either. What are the listening tests? What are the “blind conditions?” How large is the panel? What is an “very experienced audiophile?” Who are the “high end pro audio” speaker designers? Why EQ the subs for flat response? In my list of price divided by sheer output, the first choices would be SVS, Dayton and then the Epik Conquest, because they all have output over 100dB at 25Hz. The Conquest costs more than twice as much as the SVS and the Dayton cube. Yet it is a better economic value than the Revel, which costs about four times more! I looked at Craigsub’s 187-page postings on the AVSforum. I did not find all of the same subs as my old list. Yet, an extra 2 or 3 decibels is a large increase in output for a sub, and Weatherford’s weighting makes sense. It emphasis the additional impact of more powerful subs. Craigsubs however, does not list the retail prices. So I added the Epik numbers and sorted by their 20Hz shake value instead. Now the Dayton kit and the Epik Subwoofers’ Caste look really good: IF SPL at Maker Model Price 20Hz HSU SFT-2 used 230 93 Klipsch used KSW-15 200 87 Dayton Titanic III 15" kit 688 104 SVS 20-39 599 91 EpikSubwoofers.com Castle 999 108.5 ACI my Titan 720 88 Klipsch used LF10 550 80 Klipsch KSW-15 749 87 SVSound PB-13 Ultra 1,499 107 EpikSubwoofers.com Conquest 1,599 109.3 Svsound PC13-Ultra 1,399 100 ACI upgraded Titan 1,050 88 Legacy-audio Deep impact 1,695 100 ACI Titan in Cherry 1,200 88 SVS CS-Ultra 2,295 110 Atlantic Tech 372-PBM 1,399 90 Klipsch RSW-15 1,800 93 Pinnacle Baby Boomer 850 74 SVS B-4 3,499 110 Velodyne HGS-18 2,995 101 Canton AS 300 1,800 80 Ravel Ultima Sub 30 $5,990 120 Cabasse Saturn 55 19,000 135 Eminent Tech TRW-17 20,000 115 Krell Master Reference 28,000 120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Dude Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 I have been REALLY bored the last couple days so I put this together. I am also looking for a new sub, probably an Epik if I can figure out how to get one in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Again,the chart is not accurate at all. Just think about it it lists a SVS Ultra @ 110dB and the new Ultra13 doing...107 !?!?!?! This would be true if reversed.And the new Ultra still missed this figure GP! So it is an apples to oranges to watermelons chart...heck throw in onions ! The Epik Conquest is around dual SVS Ultra13 subs,output wise. The Krell's figure is a company claim(I am sure with room gain).HSU was looking good until Epik,eD and JL entered the market,its sole competition being SVS. Now things have changed...alot. And the Velo HGS18/DD-18 now looks like an overpriced gadget ! There is smaller sealed and better(JL)and in price to price ..it gets pounded into the sideline. Atlantic Tech is a joke,they where always overrated by Home Theater mag,like Def Tech who make good subs but not the world beaters some pro reviewers(read paid fan boys)made them to be. Lets cut the hoopla and get to the point,best values for your dollar in a true high output sub. eD(Elemental designs) and Epik,two top dogs.They offer performance all around and even the top subs they offer cost around and under 2K,very inexpensive considering the huge performance. Second you have SVS ,HSU and some upcoming models from AV123(who are designed by Mark Seaton,not the sealed subs they have for sale now). And for those with moolah who also want something special JL Audio offers the goods . Not to forget Danley Labs,they have the DTS-20.A monster and among the most capable subs,again sold at a realistic price. The other players...paly catch up so to speak. TC Sounds(Audio Pulse) they manufacture drivers,I wish they had subs for sale,no doubt they would be near or at the top of the performance charts.They release products on paper and scrap them,remember TheBeast ,that sub would trounce anything above,with ease. I look at this from a sub fanatic perspective,normal no I am not. Sane,no I am not.If people where like me the best profit would be selling massive subs. How times have changed,I had over twenty compact subs one time. Now all replaced or close by units ranging from 90lbs to close to 350lbs. When a sub is concerned the larger the woofer the better,the less it has to travel toproduce a given SPL.And this= less distortion. Also small driver "musicality" is hocus bogus,as mains should be capable of taking care of the impact range. The sub should not provide much slam,slam ..the RF7's,Contour S5.4's can deliver slam and plenty of it. K-Horns,talk about slam,let teh sub free the mains from deep bass duty,not play slam machine. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 Excellent post Ear! The list is what it is – the manufacturer's rating and their list price. I follow Brain Weatherhead’s lead and assign one point for very 10dB above 70SPL of output at a deep 20Hz to create a “shake number.” Then I divide that shake number by the subwoofer’s retail price to get a shake price/performance value ratio: the most 20Hz bang for the least buck. The output at 20 and/or 25Hz and the prices varies significantly. As Tom Nousine says, “getting sufficient sound pressure at low frequencies is a big deal requiring large, long stroke woofers and big amplifiers.” (http://www.nousaine.com/transfer.htm) This creates not only confusion, but also rip-offs for consumers. My ratings are objective. No listening tests. No opinions. Merely shake versus price to create value ratio. Your’s and Craigsubs’ experience are subjective, based on actually listening to the subs, and therefore extremely important. You provide a frame of reference. All three ratings however, can only help point out the better values. BTW, Nousine says that a survey shows that listening rooms are quite similar in size and speaker placement. Ear, you leave me no choice, I have to add the retail prices for Craigsub’s list. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 So I added the subs from Craigsub’s list, using his prices and 20 Hz outputs. I calculated a shake value for output above 70 dB SPL and a price ratio for performance value. I sorted the list by the 20 Hz value ratio. My list shows which sub gives the most output for the least price. His list significantly changes my line-up. His choices fill the top ten. Used subs are still best bargain. The Dayton kit is still near the top and is significantly louder than the Epik Valor. The SVS tube, which looks nice but can’t be used for a coffee table, falls to the middle. The extra output from extremely powerful subs becomes quite un-economical. The Epik Conquest, for example, has incredible bass shake, but its output is 1/3 more costly than the Castle. The Castle looks like an incredibly powerful sub for the price. Because of its $3,500 price, Craig’s number 6 ranked sub, the JL Fathom, is near the bottom of my list for value. IF SPL at Maker Model Price 20Hz is: HSU SFT-2 used 230 93 Klipsch used KSW-15 200 87 Epik Valor 549 99 Dayton Titanic III 15" kit 688 104 Elemental Designs A5-350 715 105 Rocket UFW-10 599 96 HSU VTF-3 Mark II 699 102 SVS 20-39 599 91 EpikSubwoofers.com Castle 999 108.5 Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo 899 101 Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo 999 102 ACI my Titan 720 88 Klipsch used LF10 550 80 Klipsch KSW-15 749 87 Epik Conquest 1,599 111.5 SVSound PB-13 Ultra 1,499 107 EpikSubwoofers.com Conquest (off. SPL) 1,599 109.3 Axiom EP-500 1,230 97 Svsound PC13-Ultra 1,399 100 Creative Sounds Dual + Behringer Amp + DEQ2496 1,630 104 Elemental Designs A7-900 2,000 113.5 ACI upgraded Titan 1,050 88 Legacy-audio Deep Impact 1,695 100 ACI Titan in Cherry 1,200 88 SVS CS-Ultra 2,295 110 Atlantic Tech 372-PBM 1,399 90 SVS PB12-Ultra 1,999 102 Klipsch RSW-15 1,800 93 Pinnacle Baby Boomer 850 74 Def Tech Trinity 3,000 109 ACI Maestro 2,400 95 SVS B-4 3,499 110 Velodyne HGS-18 2,995 101 JL Audio Fathom 113 3,500 102 Canton AS 300 1,800 80 Ravel Ultima Sub 30 5,990 120 Velodyne DD-18 5,000 95 Cabasse Saturn 55 19,000 135 Eminent Tech TRW-17 20,000 115 Krell Master Reference 28,000 120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Colin, Word to the wise,the Cabasse claim of 135dB is a Mickey Mouse figure. The 135dB may be true at 40Hz with room gain. Not 20Hz,only some mags in France reviewed this beast. And the reviewers are snooty elitists who smear Poupon mustard on cherry jam toasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 ...Also small driver "musicality" is hocus bogus,as mains should be capable of taking care of the impact range. The sub should not provide much slam,slam ..the RF7's,Contour S5.4's can deliver slam and plenty of it. K-Horns,talk about slam,let teh sub free the mains from deep bass duty,not play slam machine. True. The mains should provide the 'slam' factor. But I prefer my sub to kick in from where the mains roll off. So I'm leaving my mains alone - they are run full range. My subs are set at a low 28Hz so they start rolling off nicely and by the time my Belles kick in (around 45 to 50 Hz in my room) the subs are contributing less. This avoids any bass peak that you might normally get if you use high level inputs into the sub. The result in my room is subjectively seamless. I have to say using two subs is vastly superior in this setup than the one sub I used to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 According the 20 Hz value ratio above, the shake value (3.9) of the Valor costs twice as much as the used subs. The Conquest output (5.15) costs twice as much as the Valor. Despite its lower price, and great name, the Pinnacle Baby Boomer’s poor 1.4 shake points cost twice as much as the Conquest. Because of its $3,500 price, Craig’s number 6 ranked sub, the JL Fathom, is near the bottom of my list for value. You can match its output for 1/5 of its price. The high cost and low shake points make the Velodyne DD-18 is twice as inefficient in price as the Conquest. You pay $5,000 to get a 95-dB SPL level, albeit a very good one. Even worse is the Eminent Tech TRW-17. Though it puts out a powerful 115-dB SPL (5.5 shake points), so does the SVSound B4. The TRW-17 costs almost six times more for the same output! Of course 115 or 120-dB SPL or even the Cabasse Saturn 55’s unbelievable 135-dB SPL is not the same accomplishment as subs putting out a mere 100-dB. Since output above 100-dB is so important, I awarded one shake point for each decibel above the 100 dB SPL level, and resorted the list. This creates a much wider range in value ratios. Now we find out who are the true deep bass power barons! Suddenly, the list looks much different. Of course, all of the subs that can’t generate more than 100-dB SPL at 20Hz become large negative value ratios, with the Velodyne DD-18 by far the worst. You pay a lot of money, not to get 100-dB from that sub. The list looks more like what Craig and the EAR are saying. Now Epik and Elemental Designs lead the pack. Yet the Parts Express kit and the SVSounds subs are still in the running. Despite gargantuan prices, the staggeringly high output of the Saturn and even the Krell Master Reference sub make them better high performance sub values than a few expensive, low output subs, including the Fathom 113! IF SPL at Maker Model Price 20Hz is: EpikSubwoofers.com Castle 999 108.5 Epik Conquest 1,599 111.5 Elemental Designs A5-350 715 105 Elemental Designs A7-900 2,000 113.5 EpikSubwoofers.com Conquest (off. SPL) 1,599 109.3 Parts Express kit Dayton Titanic III 15" 688 104 SVSound PB-13 Ultra 1,499 107 SVS CS-Ultra 2,295 110 Ravel Ultima Sub 30 5,990 120 Def Tech Trinity 3,000 109 HSU VTF-3 Mark II 699 102 SVS B-4 3,499 110 Creative Sounds Dual + Behringer Amp + DEQ2496 1,630 104 Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo 999 102 Cabasse Saturn 55 19,000 135 Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo 899 101 SVS PB12-Ultra 1,999 102 Eminent Tech TRW-17 20,000 115 Krell Master Reference 28,000 120 JL Audio Fathom 113 3,500 102 Velodyne HGS-18 2,995 101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Shake factor, let me get a huge CAT shovel and shake your house. You will feel shake and fear factor so much higher... [] After we have the Los Alamos toys,shake they will...and blow the house from its foundation. See these shake factors are fun. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Sounds like the big bad wolf.... I'll huff and I'll puff.... and I will blow your house down... serious IB setups can move walls on the amount of half inch or more p-p under operation. 4 18 inch long stroke weak sauce drivers ( $ 800 for 4 ) with 2 $ 350 power amps... and you can set a new line on that chart above. DIY IB. Shake value off the chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 IB...best price performance bar ...NONE. Unrestricted drivers,ISO BAR ...equal pressure on both sides of the piston. No compression due to pressure (small sealed being most affected). Yes IB is the way. EBS ported follows... Shake factor you want some,my subs will provide QUAKE/FEAR FACTOR [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0O Bill O0o Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 This is probably one of the most informative subwoofer threads! Small Holiday request. Can you please update the list to include the latest subwoofers? Examples: Paradigm Studio Sub 12 and Sub 15 Paradigm Signature Sub 25 Seaton Sound Submersive HSU ULS-15 AV123 MNFW-15 all SVSs, Elemental Designs, Epik Subwoofer latests If not can you please provide the Excel Sheet so I can continue updating this. -Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KdAgain Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I recently assembled a Danley DTS-10 kit . This thing is incredible!!! What his tapped horn design gets out of 2 12" woofers is astounding. Very strong solid response down to about 11 Hz. It has no trouble keeping up with our Khorns, and makes a very real difference at the bottom end. And it is clean.Did I mention it's also BIG? First home speaker I've seen thatmakes the Khorns look small! 60" x 45" x 16". It's only going to be available in kit form for a limited time - rumor has it till the end of January. The kit without amp is $975. Many of us are using it with inexpensive Behringer EP2500 or 4000 amps. Bang for the buck - this sub has to be near the top of the heap. And remember it's not just the bang - this thing puts out CLEAN bang. I feel very fortunate to have a Danley sub, and to be fully horn loaded with Klipshorns from 11 Hz on up! Not sure if it's okay to mention other forums here, but there is a huge thread on this sub at AVS. (If it's not I would appreciate being corrected.) Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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