jacksonbart Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I was born in Mississippi as a cracker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 How do you know? Have you tried it? No, you haven't. That's like me saying all people from Mississippi are crackers and know nothing. That would be a big mistake on my part, wouldn't it? Hmmm. So we see the power of belief versus the power of reasoning. Have you personally circumnavigated the Earth? Do you know for a FACT that the world is round? While belief is indeed a formidible force, I would suggest that a bit of reasoning with regards to physics provides a bit more of a positive return on the investment... OK, let's take a look at a few elements of the system described: Coupled with spikes/tiptoes Source of vibration: Speaker itself – internally generated vibration Other speaker via radiative transmission - (damped via coupling) Surface via conductive transmission – lower damped rate than of speaker itself Vibration of cabinet internally generated in addition to radiative coupling damped by rigid coupling to lower rate of vibration of the coupled surface – lower group delay => sounds worse (?) De-coupled with Rollerballs Source of vibration: Speaker itself – internally generated vibration Other speaker via radiative transmission – (undamped via de-coupling) Vibration of cabinet internally generated in addition to radiative coupling – increased group delay => sounds better (?) So we have testimonies of those who initially claimed that tight coupling and infinitesimally small improved group delay improved the sound. Now this same source claims that de-coupling and allowing the enclosure and drivers to be vibrated by internal and radiative sources with increased group delay to sound better! And all of this in addition to the fact that the internal volume of the cabinet functions as a Helmholtz resonator of varying efficiency driven by all of the various sources, thus reinforcing the tuned frequency. To the degree that one might employ the logic to make a case, tightly coupling the cabinet to a surface exhibiting either (ideally) no or less conductive vibration should result in an infinitesimal improvement. But such an improvement is negligible compared to the orders of magnitude greater differences that can be easily effected via other means, including signal alignment. Decoupling the cabinet only serves to reduce the damping effect of a coupled surface of a surface exhibiting a lower rate of vibration – thus resulting in a less damped total system and higher group delay. And there is absolutely NO basis whatever for the concept of higher group delay improving sound! Sorry... So....what mystical force or energy is at play here? Or are these fancy devices better distributed via an ecclesiastical supply house? I'm sorry, but faith and belief, while useful in some realms, have little impact upon the physics of sound. [] I could certainly use a beer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 22, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2008 How do you know? Have you tried it? No, you haven't. That's like me saying all people from Mississippi are crackers and know nothing. That would be a big mistake on my part, wouldn't it? Maby not a big mystake, there are a few brothers here, and on the know nothing part you may be correct, still trying to figure that one out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I'll tell you what (how is that for sounding Southern!?)... Speaking as a transplanted Yankee (hey, try as one might, you never quite shake that pejorative!)... Anyone stupid enough to buy into stereotypes severely underestimates the resourcefulness of a few 'Good ol' Boys'. (...of course now is when someone digs out pictures of Lester Maddox riding his bicycle backwards...) [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 How do you know? Have you tried it? No, you haven't. That's like me saying all people from Mississippi are crackers and know nothing. That would be a big mistake on my part, wouldn't it? Hmmm. So we see the power of belief versus the power of reasoning. Have you personally circumnavigated the Earth? Do you know for a FACT that the world is round? While belief is indeed a formidible force, I would suggest that a bit of reasoning with regards to physics provides a bit more of a positive return on the investment... OK, let's take a look at a few elements of the system described: Coupled with spikes/tiptoes Source of vibration: Speaker itself – internally generated vibration Other speaker via radiative transmission - (damped via coupling) Surface via conductive transmission – lower damped rate than of speaker itself Vibration of cabinet internally generated in addition to radiative coupling damped by rigid coupling to lower rate of vibration of the coupled surface – lower group delay => sounds worse (?) De-coupled with Rollerballs Source of vibration: Speaker itself – internally generated vibration Other speaker via radiative transmission – (undamped via de-coupling) Vibration of cabinet internally generated in addition to radiative coupling – increased group delay => sounds better (?) So we have testimonies of those who initially claimed that tight coupling and infinitesimally small improved group delay improved the sound. Now this same source claims that de-coupling and allowing the enclosure and drivers to be vibrated by internal and radiative sources with increased group delay to sound better! And all of this in addition to the fact that the internal volume of the cabinet functions as a Helmholtz resonator of varying efficiency driven by all of the various sources, thus reinforcing the tuned frequency. To the degree that one might employ the logic to make a case, tightly coupling the cabinet to a surface exhibiting either (ideally) no or less conductive vibration should result in an infinitesimal improvement. But such an improvement is negligible compared to the orders of magnitude greater differences that can be easily effected via other means, including signal alignment. Decoupling the cabinet only serves to reduce the damping effect of a coupled surface of a surface exhibiting a lower rate of vibration – thus resulting in a less damped total system and higher group delay. And there is absolutely NO basis whatever for the concept of higher group delay improving sound! Sorry... So....what mystical force or energy is at play here? Or are these fancy devices better distributed via an ecclesiastical supply house? I'm sorry, but faith and belief, while useful in some realms, has little impact upon the physics of sound. I could certainly use a beer... Yes, the world is round. I know it for a fact. More? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 More? Goosh! With reasoning like that. how can anyone doubt the validity of decoupling speakers - assuming they actually achieve effective decoupling! (Especially as a couple of pucks of Sorbothane would be more effective and cheaper.) I'm convinced! ...But not about rollerblocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 The physics of sound? You're kidding, right? Look, y'all think I was trying to sell you something, and ran with it. Nothing could be further than the truth. I simply read about something in another fourm, by a well respected individual who also has nothing to push, and asked opinons. I didn't ask for 3rd rate jokes, or putdowns. Is that all you have to give? The original post was basically "have you tried this"? You guys are very quick to the draw, especially considering it's clear that nobody has even tried this. Knd of like it probably was when somebody suggested to Mr. Klipsch that the Heresy's might actually sound better on stands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I didn't ask for 3rd rate jokes, or putdowns. Is that all you have to give? The original post was basically "have you tried this"? You guys are very quick to the draw, especially considering it's clear that nobody has even tried this. Knd of like it probably was when somebody suggested to Mr. Klipsch that the Heresy's might actually sound better on stands... Yup, all I offered was jokes- - although they are warranted! (and I thank you for your erroneous overly simplified misrepresentation - so i guess I should lay on the floor and cry) And the effect of stands are easily determined based upon physical concepts as well. And to think - neither decoupling nor stands are beyond the reach of physics... And both are rather easily understood. And if you specify the spacing from the floor we can even calculate the frequency at which the bass will cease to couple and where the Q and polar lobing increase. They are great if you think the bass is overexaggerated and you like a lower frequency where polar anomalies become predominant. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Why are they warrented? Just state your opinion and be done with it. Why does it have to come with a putdown? Nobody is throwing this in your face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 In the old days there was a bromide: "You'd be surprised what a tweeter can do for the bass." Probably just psycho-acoustics. But try listening to just your sub, alone. It is difficult to make out much of anything, including the bass. Yeah, I know about overtones. Maybe if you have a wood frame floor, and you can mechanically couple the box to the floor, you get some added bass and upper bass. If so, the bromide runs the other way. "You'd be surprised what good bass can do for the treble." Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 22, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 22, 2008 Why are they warrented? Just state your opinion and be done with it. Why does it have to come with a putdown? Nobody is throwing this in your face. Ok, not really warrented but what you are talking about in any possible gains would be so far down on the diminishing returns end of the scale with everything else that could be done it's hard to see with a telescope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hey it's not personal, it's not a hit on you, just playing around, I think it's [bs] you don't, it's even. You need to go to a pilgrimage if you can make it, you will meet some of the best people, all with different opinions, and the [bs] flies . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Not everyone here is presumed to have a background in physics. Nor should they. But all of the folks taken by various claims are victims of their desire to believe. Quite a few folks here (and elsewhere) don't have an unlimited budget to blow of all sorts of magical bogus treatments - of which the market is seemingly saturated. And I get a bi tired of the typical infomercial end run around accountability by virtue of emotional testimony. Of course a curious fellow might ask why such tactics have become the norm... Others have seen enough of the magic cables, cable stands, bricks, and vaious other accoutremounts where the small issue of physics is notably absent. After a while, a lot of folks get tired of explaining over and over that the world is round. I don't think that you are the target - unless you choose to assume the role. Some here simply don't like to see others unwittingly become the victim. And we have yet to hear a coherant explanation of why and how they work. But we can certainly posit a case against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 Ok, your opinion. Which is all I was asking for. Again, remembr that it was an innocent question, based on the experiences of somebody that is not pushing a product, and is a very credible and respected listener. It's a little ridiculous to me that the responses were so uniformally negative and bashing. Kind of like the bully in thschool yard. He starts, and the rest follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 OK, so some should have invented some phony positive responses. They were "uniformly negative" for a reason. One just might wonder why they are unitformly negative - or even ask why! - if they wish to gain a better understanding of the product instead of simply responding with indignation at the "uniform" rejection of the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 23, 2008 You should see what happens when we talk about expensive wires ![] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 It's really quite amazing. I've been a regular contributor to the Hoffman forums, the Audio Asylum, the Decware Fourms, the Audiogon forums and several others for years. Asked so many questions about various products and claims, and pretty much uniformally have never had the rabid, almost paranoid responses that I've received here. Once again, there is nobody trying to sell anything. There is no snakeoil, there is only a question. Why the majority of you want to imply that it's something more than that is beyond me. But you know what, it is what it is. I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 So, now you are atacking my fancy wire?????????? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 23, 2008 You guys type so fast I have to quote myself so you will see it ! Hey it's not personal, it's not a hit on you, just playing around, I think it's you don't, it's even. You need to go to a pilgrimage if you can make it, you will meet some of the best people, all with different opinions, and the flies . [:$] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 23, 2008 So, now you are atacking my fancy wire?????????? Yep, should have saved your money. [] [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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