MBM135 Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 OK here goes--looking to upgrade to better receiver or power amp/preamp combo. Budget is tight at $1500. Here's my current set-up: Sony 32 in Trinitron Sony DVP-360 Denon DCM-370 CD changer (may upgrade to Rotel since my Denon is having having some problems) H/K AVR 110 KG4's front, KV-3 Cent, SS-1s rear, soon to add KSW-12 sub Good interconnects throughout (12 gauge wire, upper- tier monster analog and digital cables) The system is great for HT--no complaints there. But, I've become a more critical listener and listen to 2-channel much more than HT. I've noticed some weaknesses with music (esp rock) at higher volume levels--loses the clarity and instruments seem to run together. It doesn't sound bad, just not the awesome depth and clarity of my jazz collection. The higher volumes seem to bring out the flaws in any system. Current living space does not allow for a seperate 2 chan listening room. So, seems that amplification may be the best upgrade? I really like my H/Ks sound but have been reading reviews on Outlaw 1050/750 combo. Also my H/K does not have preamp outputs--a real bummer. Reviews of the Outlaw power amp consistently rate it as though it is a $1700 amp for $1000. And their HT rcvr (also functions as a preamp) ($500) also gets very high marks. Haven't heard either of these since Outlaw only sells direct. I can't find any amp/preamp combo for less money that will support both HT and 2 chan. Another option is upgrade to a better recevier that has excellent 2 chan reviews--seems I have to exceed my $1500 cap to achieve this. H/Ks AVR 7000 which sports a torroidial transformer (like Outlaws power amp) is a $1700 product--even used. And, again, you hard core audiopliles would say you HAVE to have a seperate power amp for super-clean sound. Is Outlaw the only answer? I'm sure I'm not the only guy trying to achieve the best of both HT and 2 channel audio from the same black box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 I bought a Denon 3801/Acurus 125FIVE for that price last year.And I like them. Boa12 has a barely used Acurus 200FIVE for sale at a good price. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aab3rd Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 I am selling my Parasound AVC1800 Pre/Pro which is great on music and good on HT too. If interested PM me to discuss price and details. I might even sell my Marantz MM9000 that I use as my power amp and upgrade all of my stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 I own an Outlaw 750 amp and I am very pleased with it. The reviews for this piece are right on target - worth every penny at $1099 retail. Thats $220 per channel of high quality amplification. It sounds quite good using an HK AVR75 receiver as pre/pro, and should improve when I upgrade to a true prepro (likely the Outlaw 950 when it is released). Speakers are Cornwall II's as mains, Academy center channel, and Quintets as rears for now (really inadequate, will be upgraded to Chorus or Fortes when I find an oak set near me for a fair price). I use it both ways, for 2 channel music as well as HT, and feel that my amplifier needs for this system are solved - I do not forsee needing an upgrade anytime soon. Much more than I really need, just the way I like it. The Acurus amps are good deals now too, as they were recently discontinued by Klipsch/Mondial (they still back up the line though - not to worry). I don't recall what boa12 wants for his 200x5, but it is worth looking into. It will be a bargain for the quality of the unit. If you are happy with the processor functions of the 1050 receiver, it should be a good sounding combo. I am opting for the Outlaw 950 pre/pro, to be released in the next month or two, ($899) which will offer a more updated surround package, particularly the DPL II, plus digital ins and an output (just something I happen to need). That package is slightly out of your stated budget, so the 1050 might be a good option for you right now. Outlaw gives a $50 discount if you buy both 1050/750, whether or not you buy them at the same time. Another option for you might be the Harman Kardon Signature pre/pro, which can be found now for under $500. Factory refurbished units show up on ubid (and you do get full H/K factory warranty with ubid). Good deal for an under $500 unit. Make sure you get a warranty if you go this route (especially with the units on ebay - make sure the warranty is good by verifying through H/K). It's a good idea to have valid warranty for prepros these days, as they are as much computer as they are audio component. I'm not done yet though. Let's talk about your speakers. I couldn't help but re-read your comment about them: "I've noticed some weaknesses with music (esp rock) at higher volume levels--loses the clarity and instruments seem to run together. It doesn't sound bad, just not the awesome depth and clarity of my jazz collection. The higher volumes seem to bring out the flaws in any system." This could be several things, as my own system was built specifically to address this issue. How loud do you listen to rock and roll? Or anything else for that matter? Most systems "break up" when you crank up the rock and roll, but Klipsch do rock and roll as well as anything out there. I wonder if you are asking too much of the KG4's. I've found that the Chorus and Cornwalls are excellent in this regard - they play LOUD AND CLEAR. Concert level sound, especially with the Outlaw. Heresys are good, too, just lacking in the low end somewhat (ideal with a subwoofer though). My system is louder than I can really stand (again the way I like it). The lesser model speakers in the Klipsch Heritage line didn't really cut it for rock and roll, at least to my ears. You might look at the Reference speakers too, but Heritage Klipsch can still be had used for less than the larger Reference models. I'm not trying to give your KG4's a hard time, they are great speakers, especially for the size and price, but I wonder if speakers are the more logical upgrade for you. IMHO, the best bang for the buck in audio is your speakers. No other purchase will make as much difference as the speaker purchase does. If you upgrade your mains, the KG4's could still find a place in your system as surrounds. If you get into a Forte, Chorus or Chorus II, Cornwall or Cornwall II (or any higher end heritage) I 100% guarantee you improvement, even with the H/K receiver that you have now. These speakers will rock your world, literally. HT + Klipsch Heritage = Bliss. As close to the true cinema sound that my budget can achieve. It's damn close. Another point about rock and roll is that recordings can be less than desirable. If the recording stinks, you are just amplifying that junk, and it won't sound good at high volumes. Good audio gear exposes those weaknesses, but I wouldn't want it any other way. Sorry for the long winded post (whew). The short version: Are you truly happy with the KG4's as mains? If you are, you might consider a better pre/pro/amp combo. I still believe that you can do better on your main speakers and get more, instant, bang for the buck right now. The amp upgrade will be a good idea in either case, but the speakers will make more of a difference. Good luck choosing P.S. - If you do upgrade your mains, you might put the subwoofer purchase off until the mains are in your system - there's no way that a ksw-12 would keep up with my Cornwalls. You'll want a unit that will keep up with your mains. The KSW-12 may be OK with the current speaker package - you should hold off until you know for sure. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 01-28-2002 at 04:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 I travel 10 non weekend days a month on business and when I am home have 4 kids so I have very little time to look for deals. In October 2001 I found a demo separates set of Sherwood Newcastle HT components AM-9080 power amp(5 x 125) and AVP-9080R preamp from a local HT place. $ 1100 for the set including 5 Esoterec .5 meter RCA interconnects to go from the preamp to the power amp; 3 year warranty as well. I was looking for either the Outlaw 1050 or the NAD T 761 to upgrade my system; hold out for seperates if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted January 28, 2002 Author Share Posted January 28, 2002 Thanks guys for the replies--sounds like I have some good options. My experience with used audio gear has been less than stellar--so I will opt for new amp and pre-amp if I go that route. dndphishion: I love my KG4's. I really haven't had a chance to listen to any older Klipsch speakers from their era (got mine in 1988). I listened to some newer models (synergy, RF-3s) but they were teamed with crappy Sony low-end receivers so unable to judge. I have talked to a friend who heard Forte's and thought he was in heaven. Maybe I will audition some Heresy's when I go out to Calif next month. I really like your point about the quality of recordings. For example, if I listen to Goo Goo Doll's "Iris" off the City of Angels soundtrack in HDCD my speakers are awesome--even loud. I don't listen at "concert levels" but like to hear it jacked up a bit. Same wih the entire Dire Straights "Sultans of Swing" new release in HDCD. It's why I love high definition. But, put in Creed's new album and it loses clarity at anything stonger than -25dB on my H/K AVR-110. Mellow out, put in Diana Krall or Will Ackerman and wow--can it sound any better? Will be tough to listen to older Klipsch since they are no longer made. I really like the "musical feel" of the KG-4s. Which of the older models (Forte/Cornwall/Chorus etc) have a similar sound to my KG4s? I will explore the Heresy idea too and give them a test drive. MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 You need to hear the Heritage stuff before you start spending money. The best bet is to listen to other forum members' systems whenever possible. You have an open invite to listen to mine if you have occasion to come through the Quad Cities. Ask around to see if forum members are located in areas your travels take you, or near where you live. Many of our forum members open their homes to other members to show off systems and to listen to those Heritage that you normally canot demo. The time and effort will be justified. Trust me when I say that you don't know what you are missing. Once you find out, getting that sound will become a priority. Which model to select depends on how much speaker cabinet you can live with, your budget, and what you like. I own Cornwall II's. I would tell you that of the specific models that we have been discussing, the Cornwalls are excellent - some prefer the older Cornwalls with the alnico magnets, primarily built in the seventies. Either the original or II is a winner though, and a great choice as a main speaker pair. Cornwall cabinets are large, some wives don't care for them, but my wife loves the large oak cabinets. The Chorus models (which I like to call the Cornwall's baby brother) will keep up with the Cornwalls output, with a smaller footprint. The Cornwall has the edge in "slam", the Chorus, especially the Chorus II, is "tighter" bass. Both models are impressive. If you like your KG4's, prepare to get addicted The Forte and Forte II are smaller than the aforementioned Chorus/Cornwalls, and a slight step down in performance. Still very good, though, and well worth considering. The Chorus/Cornwalls do what the Fortes do, just better. The Forte has a cabinet size that almost anyone can live with, there are many very happy Forte owners on this forum. The Heresys are great speakers in a near bookshelf size. They are excellent, but they really need a good subwoofer to get the low end. Since you are building an HT, this is a viable option. However, you will want to select the subwoofer with care - you will want an accurate, musical sub. These models are the "middle" of the Heritage line - there are also the Lascalas, Belle Klipsch, and the flagship Klipschorns. If you can afford them, they are all great speakers, but carry heftier price tags. Listen to these if you can, if for no other reason than to hear the best Klipsch has built. All of these were made available in an array of wood finishes. Look in the product section of this website under "classic" to get specs, cabinet sizes, and other info on the speakers no longer made. Purchasing and pricing info: These speakers are currently out of production (except the Heresy II), but that does not mean that you can't get them. Lots of older Klipsch change hands through this forum, and the internet is a great tool to find the Klipsch we so desire. Don't sweat the fact that they are used - Klipsch last for literally decades - there are Klipsch from the fifties still playing great. They are simple, solid, low maintenance structures that may last longer than you. Prices: I'll try to give general ranges. Typically, half of the new price is a good guideline for a set in average cosmetic condition. You can pay more for sets in good condition, less for those in not as good of condition, and sometimes you will get lucky and the seller doesn't know what they are worth. Ebay tends to draw the highest prices, at least in those few cases where there are several aggressive bidders going for a highly desired pair. Heresy $350 - $1100: $500 pairs are commonly available, certain sets get high dollar, especially the seventies vintage with alnico magnets. Forte $400 - $900 Chorus $450 - $1200 Cornwall $500 - 1500+, the Cornwall is very popular right now. $1000 per pair for a good set is common. A set sold on ebay several weeks ago for $1850 (seventies vintage, immaculate condition, excellent presentation by the seller). This is an extreme example, $1200 for a good set is fair, and obtainable. Many sell for $700-900, I got mine for $700, in near mint shape. These speakers will outperform anything out there currently sold new, dollar for dollar, even at the high side of the price scale. Even used, they are a great audio bargain. Check the want ads, used audio web sites, estate sales, garage sales, flea markets, anywhere that they may turn up. Persistance pays big dividends if you like Klipsch Heritage. I'll drive a full days drive to get a good pair, they are that much worth the hassle. Happy searching! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted January 31, 2002 Author Share Posted January 31, 2002 Thanks for the reply dndphishin. An excellent synopsis of the "next-tier-up" classics. After having given it a few days of serious thought I believe you are correct. I should upgrade from the KG-4s. I think I will lean towards Forte/Forte IIs but keep the Chorus in mind as well. The Forte's look like "tall KG-4s" and I've heard they share many of the 4's characteristics but are indeed a "step up". Cornwalls are too big and since I live in North Dakota (arctic wasteland) shipping is a serious cost consideration for an purchase. Only problem is that upgrading my mains for better 2 channel audio will also drive a need to replace my center speaker for HT--another costly venture. And, I still feel like my amplification will be "entry level." So, for now I will wait, do some tweaks and hold out temporarily until I accumulate some cash. I will definitely stay with the older Klipsch--I have listened to the newer stuff and it sounds to "different" than what I'm used too. In the meantime I am going to try some different speaker placements and also try to get the KG-4s off the carpeted floor a bit using a couple of painted cynder blocks--try to get the drivers closer to ear level while seated. I think the "tallness" of the Forte/Chorus models do this with their 36-39 inch size. Thanks Again. I'll have to talk the wife into "authorizing" new speakers. She thinks the 4's are "too big." So, I have some work to do... MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 The nice thing about Klipsch is that you can get away with that amplification until you can afford better. While you are saving, keep an eye out for those Klipsch that are on your wish list. They will turn up, in time. You are correct about the center channel - you will need a replacemnt to match the new speakers. Be especially on the lookout for an Academy (the hard to find magnetically shielded center channel) - it is the best match for those midline heritage models (Forte/Chorus/Cornwall). If you can get one for under $300, grab it and store it until you find the Forte/Chorus you are looking for. I found one two months ago for $265 - mint, OBM, and delivered from an audio dealer (it was $400 new). You could use a single Heresy as well, but it is not shielded. These show up occasionally on sites where used audio is sold. I drive distances to pick up speakers. This solves two problems: I know what they are before I leave with them, and my lack of trust in handling with shippers. Look for 'em like you want 'em, cause the rest of us Heritage addicts do. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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