Hey HornEd, need Phantom feedback...

[t-man]

First off, welcome back H.E.!!!

Nice to see you finally tackled the center channel experiement. I have a challenge for you.

When sitting directly in front of your TV (not off axis), what differences do you notice when switching your receiver to center small / center NO! That's right, I'm wondering if your phantom mode sounds at all like your identical center speaker when sitting dead on center.

If you could, I would like input based on tests with 5.1 dolby digital movie soundtracks, DTS Movie, and DTS Audio soundtracks, as well as DTS movie soundtracks.

When I play with this, I can't hear much of a difference with audio mixes, unless they are of the DTS variety. I notice a big difference in center channel sound between DD and DTS. Take Steely Dan Two Against Nature for example. Much more mellow center channel in DD vs DTS soundtrack.

Anyway, I read that most of us are better off without a center channel unless it IS IDENTICAL to the mains and unless we are sitting off axis. Therefore, I would be interested in your A/B comparisons to confirm, since you DO have an identical center.

Thanks,

T-man

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KLF-C7 (center in storage)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

This message has been edited by t-man on 01-30-2002 at 09:12 AM

[HornEd]

You've got it t-man! I am on my way out to do a 420mm lens, 5 megapixel digital photo shoot of kite surfing the Pacific Ocean beach south of San Francisco. It's the Maverick where they have surfing contests when the waves hit 20'. I am meeting a friend so I will have to do your test later.

Actually, I have done some of what you mention but I will reserve most of my comments until I can do it to your specs. I will give you a hint by saying that putting a main in the middle is a revelation. It makes you wonder why we have been putting up with wimpy centers for so long. Hmm, I never thought I would say that about a KLF-C7. Of course, the answer is 5.1 and beyond. Full range discrete channels make the future sound better than ever.

The one advantage of a phantom center is that the timbre matching couldn't be better. Changing the placement of a speaker or the motor board orientation does affect the timbre... but not very much.

While I still prefer some music on my Cornwall based music system, I have to admit the three main approach (LMain, CMain, RMain) is the best way to go by far... off axis or on!

I'll get back to it as soon as I can. HornEd

------------------

"Where Klipsch Legends Cavort in a Six Way!"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, SB-2 Front Effects

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra subs, Samson Megawatt Amp

KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808

and such... Tweakin' On!

Music Respite Room: Cornwalls & SVS 16-46

Klipsched Class "A" Motor Home: Still in testing phase...

[t-man]

HornEd,

Thanks! Sounds like you are already a bit biased. Perhaps we need to get your mother in on the testing!?

Looking forward to your results!

Troy

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KLF-C7 (center in storage)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

[HornEd]

quote:

---

Originally posted by t-man:

I have a challenge for you.

When sitting directly in front of your TV (not off axis), what differences do you notice when switching your receiver to center small / center NO! That's right, I'm wondering if your phantom mode sounds at all like your identical center speaker when sitting dead on center.

If you could, I would like input based on tests with 5.1 dolby digital movie soundtracks, DTS Movie, and DTS Audio soundtracks, as well as DTS movie soundtracks.

When I play with this, I can't hear much of a difference with audio mixes, unless they are of the DTS variety. I notice a big difference in center channel sound between DD and DTS. Take Steely Dan Two Against Nature for example. Much more mellow center channel in DD vs DTS soundtrack.

Anyway, I read that most of us are better off without a center channel unless it IS IDENTICAL to the mains and unless we are sitting off axis. Therefore, I would be interested in your A/B comparisons to confirm, since you DO have an identical center.

Thanks,

T-man

---

So here is my plan, T-man... I plan to take one movie and one music concert that are recorded in both dts and DD and one. I will sit "on axis" and note the difference between the matched center and the phantom center. I think I should repeat the test by doing it over in an off-center listening spot. I think I shall probably do an SPL check as well. Let me know if I missed your drift or something else snowballed down the idea pike. HornEd

[montigue]

HEY horned!! welcome back buddy!!! good to see you on the site again...yyyeeeeppppeeeee

Monty R

[HornEd]

Hey there, Monty... somewhere in the last couple of days I responded to one of your posts. As you can see I am still truckin' along in the same direction as when we last communicated. Since I converted a KLF-30 to be a properly oriented center speaker I have become a confirmed believer in "3MAIN" rigs... LMain, CMain, RMain.

Preliminary results of the ongoing test for the t-man have been quite revealing. First off, if I hadn't heard the KLF-30 custom center, I would be quite happy with the sounds of a five KLF-30 rig with a phantom center... especially sitting "on axis." It brought back memories of the phantom channel of yesteryear... too long forgotten.

In the 80's I custom built a surround sound system with subwoofer for a 60-seat showroom theater. It had been built by the previous tenant, Eastman Kodak and featured a state-of-the-art 18'x9' screen. I used a pair of piggy backed Yamaha surround systems to create an "ambient 6.1" system. The distance from LMain to RMain was 24' and I found that taking advantage of Yamaha's phantom center technology was superior to trying to fill the gap by using the center channel. Bear in mind that readily available source material was not discretely channeled into the full-range 6.1 config that we can have today (matrixed or not). And, t-man, with 60 seats in a trapezoidal array wider at the rear... being "off axis" was not a complaint of the thousands of folks who got to enjoy it. Yes, t-man, in my effort to make the most of the "ear candy" that discrete channels provide, I had indeed forgotten just how awe inspiring a phantom channel can be!

I had too little time last night to complete the test and I am leaving on a motorhome trip before dawn this morning... but here are some preliminaries.

I did a series of A/B on axis and off axis tests using a 6.1 dts Vivaldi music video and 5.1 (matrixed to 6.1) Dolby Digital of the "Matrix." I have to say, having five KLF-30's cranking with a phantom center and twin SVS Ultras is a great sound by most folks standards. In fact much better than anticipated... particularly on orchestral music.

Without the luxury of A/B comparison switched quickly back and forth on the same program material I would have been harder pressed to distinguish the actual rather than theoretical distinctions between a phantom channel and a "true main" center speaker... since the center channel duties were pressed upon the Mains. Since I use front effects channels to broaden and elevate the soundstage, the mains are tight on the 65" HDTV and that may contribute to their effectiveness in covering for the switched off center.

Preliminarily, the primary difference observed was a "flatness" to the phantom center soundstage... a lacking of detail that was more evident as I moved off axis... particularly on movies where the mind is drawn to visually determined sound sources (i.e., the mental linkage between observed flapping jaws and the location of a perceived sound source). I even shut my eyes to locate a sound source by ear and then opened them to get a visual check on the screen. Clearly, the real center outperformed the phantom center... but again the phantom did very well indeed.

All things being equal, a discrete center speaker that replicates the sound characteristics of the mains clearly beats the phantom. But, t-man, the phantom performed so well that I can now understand why some people say that a phantom is better than a mismatched center. With all the enjoyment I have gotten from the KLF-C7 in the center spot, I now wonder if I would not have gotten more pleasure with a phantom channel.

Admittedly, this test is more subjective than I would prefer it to be... but if one's "ears" are the acknowledged final authority of an audio system... the "objectivity potential" is automatically biased.

And, another issue is that my ears are not as "audiophile biased" as they were 40 years ago. That's part of the reason that KLF-30's don't seem quite so harsh to older ears... and "audiophile-style" speakers seem to be "mushy" by comparison. It is too bad my "audiophile eared" son is 2,000 miles away... this test is interesting enough for a second opinion.

Well, dawn will be breaking soon in San Francisco so I better crank it up and make some tracks. But one thing this test has shown... It doesn't make sense to push upwards of 75% of movie sound through a speaker that is inferior to the mains. Many of the benefits that sound engineers are mixing into discrete (5.1, etc.) source material sound better with the phantom... for, in effect, the phantom is driven by the larger, better mains. I appreciate this opportunity to reorient my bias t-man... Oh, and Seb, it looks like there's a way to stretch out the payment plan for your complete RF-7 system... visit the phantom!

HornEd (to be continued)

------------------

"Where Klipsch Legends Cavort in a Six Way!"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, SB-2 Front Effects

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra subs, Samson Megawatt Amp

KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808

and such... Tweakin' On!

Music System: vintage Cornwall based

Klipsched Class "A" Motorhome: On the road testing...

[Seb]

yaaaaayyyy!!

[t-man]

HornEd,

How very interesting....Don't forget the DTS vs DD, as It's so strange to me how the center info sounds quite different between these modes. Your time and assistance to satisfy my curiosity is very appreciated! Your comments are excellent so far.

T-man

------------------

KG 5.5 (mains)

KG 2.2v (center)

KLF-C7 (center in storage)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12 (sub)

Denon AVR 681/1601

Toshiba SD-3109 DVD

Kenwood LVD700 LD

Sony CD changer

Sony 27" Trinitron

Sony PLX I

[RWMIN]

The Horn Lives. Welcome back.

[HornEd]

Main Center vs. Phantom Center Challenge

It is better to set your receiver to Phantom Center than to use a Center speaker that is less than identical to your main speakers. Thats the question Klipsch Forum freethinker, T-man, wanted examined. Having six KLF-30s in a 6.1 configuration with one KLF-30 (with a horizontalized motor board) functioning as a center speaker, t-man asked me to give it a whirl. And so I have. Although, please bear in mind that this kind of evaluation tends to be subjective enough to turn whirled peas into world peace and, thus have I endeavored to throttle down bias and pump up objectivity which is how I made my living prior to retirement.

T-man requested that the tests be made on axis (sitting directly in front of the midline of the left and right mains). Thats fine for us single folks, but I have also included off axis impressions for all of you who like to extend your ears in groups. By request, the tests were made covering dts, Dolby Digital and PCM movies and music videos. For my own curiosity I have added the dated but respected Video Essentials to the mix on the premise that more controlled variables would increase objectivity and allow other Klipschers with that disc to try some of this out on their own systems.

With the exception of the exceptional Naxos dts 5.1 DVD Mozart and the Smithsonians superb piano GRAND! DD 5.1, there has been an effort made to pick test sources that are likely well known to most avid HT forum folk. The tests were done using the equipment description at the end of the post. Note that the Yamaha RX3000 automatically converts 5.1 data into 6.1 output and that probably evens out the test a bit because well done 6.1 on a rig set up for it can distract a reviewer. The rig was carefully calibrated with the ever popular RS SPL meter and my favorite over-sized, glove leather, LazyBoy recliner was positioned dead on the axis line. Test input was set by the SPL meter to be reviewed at an median 85 dB on the premise that bass waves are more difficult to perceive at lower volumes. Following the popular pattern, Digital Theater System is abbreviated as dts and Dolby Digital is abbreviated as DD

For the sake of ease and clarity, I will list the test subjects and assign them an alpha designation to save space in the report section. All samples are from my DVD library should further questions arise. Heres the list:

A. Video Essentials 5.1 DD, Selected to fine tune the set-up and for A-B Repeats of center channel related set-up sequences.

B. Eagles Hell Freezes Over 5.1 dts only, Seven Bridges Road audio only track. Selected for its popularity on the Klipsch Board as an example of music that was not mixed to match video content.

C. Matrix 5.1 DD, helicopter crash sequence. Selected for its wide spread popularity as an outstanding multiple channel sound experience.

D. Gladiator 6.1 dts, 5.1 DD, Release hell sequence. Widely seen, plus the DVD includes both dts and DD tracks.

E. "Naxos Musical Journey: Mozart" 5.1 dts, 5.1 DD, Symphony No. 40 in G Minor excerpts. Full orchestral selection with great range and powerful solos.

F. piano GRAND! 5.1 DD, Smithsonian special on the 300th anniversary of the invention of the piano and was originally taped as HDTV. This disk provides tracks covering everything from chamber orchestra plus trio (Diana Krall, Lets Fall in Love) to individual performances (Jean-Yves Thibaudet, Chopin, Nocturne in E-Flat).

So, its time for the guardedly SIMHO (e.g., Subjective In My Humble Opinion) results:

(A) Right from the start, the Video Essentials disc set the done and cleared much of the controversy. It also allows anyone with that disk to make a comparison of what they are now using for a center and the quality of sound that is available using a Phantom setting. Sitting on axis the sound is much better than might be expected due to the additional power and, perhaps, finesse of the mains verses most scaled down center channel offerings. I was a bit disappointed though because the sound to screen link to dialogue was not as precise as I remember it being with my 18 wide screen in my showroom theater a decade ago! Off axis performance will likely vary between home theaters, and that is why I suggest you try it with yours. The duplicate main center channel did provide the tonal match, live in your face presentation, and punch at a level that only discrete audio seems to be able to do. It did show me that my converted KLF-30 CMain matches the L & R Mains (set to SMALL) better when the center is set to LARGE and will config the rig like that when this test is finished.

I have been given to understand that cigarette manufacturers alter the blend of their product slightly from time-to-time so that the impression of taste in their product does not get stale in mind or their loyal consumers. As a former smoker and as relative of a former research head of a major tobacco company I think that is probably correct. Perhaps the same is true with long standing aural impressions as well. After all, we must each create our own reality in our mind from the sensory clues we drag in from our environment.

In that spirit, I dragged two previous center channels that I have used, a KLF-C7 and large Infinity center (from another system) with cerametalic-like cones. Comparing the other two centers with the KLF-30C and the Phantom fairly well proved the original premise. I will say that using a less than identical main in the center seems to create a series of trade-offs such as trading definition, precise sound/screen sync, and live punch for the timbre match and overall hefty if somewhat flat response of the Phantom. Its a call only your ear can make and so you have to hear it for yourself. Playing with the Phantom until the right CMAIN comes along is not so farfetched for me as it was before the test.

( Seven Bridges Road is an outstanding example of Eagles close harmony. In mid-test, it seemed appropriate to turn off the Front Effects speakers since they are several feet outside of the L&R Mains and clearly enhance the masking the Phantom. It is assumed that most folks who peruse this board do not have a preference for Front Effects speakers, so this review may be more valuable without them. I can tell you though, they supply a mask that really helps the Phantom. Upon turning off the Front Effects, it seemed more obvious that the sound was coming from the L&R Mains. But, the basic sound stage is so solid that listening to the Phantom had a lot going for it over plugging in one of the above other test centers. Obviously, the moment you switch from the Phantom, you diminish the presence of the L&R KLF-30s that really sound better the more you crank them.

So any center you chose has a big hole to fill as well as a tough timbre to match. The winner, clearly the KLF-30 Center set to LARGE with the Front Effects on. But I sure could live with the Phantom especially on axis! This is getting a lot more interesting than when I first read T-mans request.

© And now on to the famous ear grabbing helicopter gotcha sequence in the Matrix. Once again, the Phantom scores big time! The raw power of the L&R KLF-30s to portray an action film with the Phantom is truly something to behold. The timbre difference between the KLF-C7 and the flanking KLF-30 R&L Mains was disturbing when compared with the Phantom or the KLF-30 Center. Of course, the C7 is tiny compared to a massive 30 on top of your TV! But, then again this test is not an exercise in the power of Feng Shui or a tasteful décor challenge its all EARS! On that note, most people can hear better out of one ear than the other one of the few areas I fit in with most people. I noticed that I had to move off axis to balance my hearing loss in the lesser ear. But, thats a picky point the simplicity of action films give you room to wander.

(D) And now to the Gladiator and a comparison of dts and DD. I went into this test with a bias toward dts but an appreciation that DD has done so much to bring on the discrete sound revolution. Switching from DD to dts is shows a profound advantage to dts. Every speaker in the system seems to gain volume and presence as if an aural fog had lifted and given all speakers a new dimension of clarity. While I have held a bias toward dts, this A-B switch in mid-stream battle. Once again, I was amazed! And, once again the Phantom came in second a little more hollow than the KLF 30 Center but with all color and character of the Mains. There is no doubt that anyone thinking about a knee jerk approach to selecting center speakers should think again.

(E) Naxos Musical Journeys are very well done dts & DD 5.1 DVDs that honor various composers and show European scenes of video wallpaper. Once again there is no bias in the mix to emphasize screen action and the entire orchestra is treated like one great instrument being played by the conductor as it should be. Once again, six main speakers beat the Phantom and five main speakers but this time the margin was closer. With less need for speech handling and with the 6.1 dts config seemingly pulling the audience into the center of the orchestra, many of the assets of the C7 were not in demand and the timbre difference was all too clear. Once again, dts outdid DD by a handy margin. The switch from DD to dts was marked with a gain in SPLs and a burst of detailed clarity. It is so sad that the Blockbusters of this world tend to buy the non-dts versions of DVDs in an attempt to have greater profits. How many times have you rented a film in which 5.1 DD is the best option and, yet, when it came to the screen credits, there was a dts logo! You have just paid good money to watch a second class version of the film or music video. Its a fact of consumer demand and too few dts decoders installed in the marketplace for Blockbuster, Hollywood, etc. to regain their dts licensing fee from sales to dts savvy people. Thats why this Klipsch Board is so important as a place to spread the truth about the advantage of dts and 3Mains.

(F) The Smithsonians big celebration of the invention of the piano 300 years ago was filmed in HDTV format in partnership with PBS in Maryland and the result is a very cool grand PIANO! This very clean 5.1 DD pointed up just how much better the Phantom can be than even a great center like the KLF-C7. The designated center for the KLF-30 just doesnt measure up against the KLF-30 or the Phantom. The problem is that when the discrete center channel feeds the C7 the big Left and Right Mains fade way down and the great, but different, voice of the C7 takes the position of being the commanding main speaker. When the KLF-30 Center is fed the discrete center channel sound, the Left and Right Mains fade and the Center Main comes up with the same voice. The center channel, therefore, sounds less overbearing. Frankly, this is the kind of test that tends to give credence to T-mans premise.

CONCLUSION: All concerns about subjective bias aside, dts clearly outperforms DD, the addition of the same speaker at center as you have for the mains will raise your system to a new level of excellence, and the Phantom center that came inside your receiver is likely to outperform the designated center speaker recommended by the manufacturer. While the conclusions drawn from this challenge may lack scientific method, they were done with as honest and open a mind as I can muster. I hope that the few folks who take the time to read this will continue to lobby for a better solution to providing center channel speakers that are truly equal to the task and that goes for the surround and rear effects speakers that are less than equal to the task of 7.1 discrete full-range channels. Another concern is the percentage of sound that is fed to the center channel by the pros who mix the audio.

If the industry could provide three identical performing front mains (Left, Center, Right) and three identical rear support speakers (Left, Center, Right), then sound engineers could channel sound could create the full range of ambient and dynamic sound that would bring us all the sound path of progress that we consumers crave. Personally, its been a fun and enlightening challenge, thanks for bringing it to my attention T-man. I guess this whole thing could have been shorter but then I wouldnt be HornEd

------

TAKING IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL

IN A KLIPSCH LEGEND SIX WAY

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30's: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main

SB-2's: L & R Front Effects on 5' sand filled columns

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30's: Left Surround, Rear Effects, Right Surround

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra subs, Samson Megawatt Amp

KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808

and such... Tweakin' On

This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-06-2002 at 10:20 AM

[Seb]

very good job HornEd, and one that will probably salvage the nak accounts (and sanity) of a lot of people here (i.e. me) who don't have the money to get three speakers at the same time...

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[t-man]

HornEd,

First off, thanks for taking the time to accept my challenge far beyond expectations. It appears that the experimenting intrigued you as you went along, as I was intrigued as I started thinking about it in my mind, and doing my own testing in my home.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion in the past regarding this topic. Your testing clearly demonstrated a need for FURTHER testing and feedback from all of us. Certainly, it shows evidence for saving some serious green, as well as pleasing our wives. My wife freaked when she saw the C7, and how massive it is.

Also, what a great case for all you classic Klipsch lovers who own Heritage speakers with no center channels made for them. Why pay the ridiculous price for an Academy, which may not work as well as simply running your fronts in Phantom mode. Of course, those with assymetric listening environments have little choice. For many of us, the choice just got more confusing. Perhaps I don't need that ugly center channel speaker after-all??

I see a poll in the near future: Phantom vs center; which do you prefer. I only hope that when others present their opinions they are as careful and systematic in comming to their conclusions as HornEd has been here. It sure is easy to say that one prefers their $600 Academy that they have searched high and low for for up to a year, than readily admit that they are better off without it.

Keep the discussion and tweaking rolling Klipsch fans!

T-man

[Craig6519]

WOW Great post HornEd, I sure wish i would have picked up that lonely KLF-10 when i had the chance and converted it to a center channel.

Craig

[T2K]

And to all of you that no longer need those useless Academy's, I'll give $50 to the first ten(10)people that now want to sell them. Must be excellant with original box and manual. E-mail me.

Keith

[HornEd]

Awww, come on ttK, that would be a Rolltide Rip-off of a scale unbefitting your helpful nature... so you gotta be pulling our collective leg!

I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Academy wasn't a great center speaker, I only said that the closer you match the mains to all the other speakers you have in your rig the better the sound will be for HT. That's my humble opinion... and, hopefully, this forum is still a place where such opinions can be voiced.

I certainly spent some money to try out your opinion of multiple towers with sub-woofers... even though I opted for something else for this room configuration.

Hopefully, people have been encouraged to think and listen for themselves. Putting your rig in a Phantom (NO CENTER) Mode allows the testing of what the basic sound of your rig may be... before adding any dedicated center channel. Then switch your receiver to the center of your choice and listen hard to all kinds of sounds... particularly where a sound pan goes around the room. I think more than a few will be surprised by what they hear.

I think it's a problem that is not going to be effectively resolved until manufacturers come up with a way of more closely replicating the power and character of the mains in the most vital speaker in your system... the center... real or phantom.

Enjoy your good sounds, my friend. HornEd

[T2K]

Hey Ed. Sort of an inside joke on the Academy comment.Totally understand your thinking on the center speaker.And yes I have another KSP300 in storage for possible future center use!

Aloha ED.

Keith

[HornEd]

Aloha, Keith

I appreciate your presence on this Forum because you are a maverick, as I am, and are not afraid to speak your mind or sincerely apologize when you have spoken out of turn.

Oh, one thing that I noted but would like to stress again is the comparison of the KLF-C7 Center and the custom built KLF-30 Center. The all KLF 30 sound was considerably less "harsh" when the KLF-C7 was NOT part of the mix. Unfortunately, cutting the dB's going to the C7 also increases the disparity of the timbre.

I expect to build another system from scratch later this year... so all comments are very welcome. TTK has taught me to Roll (with the) tide HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-03-2002 at 06:23 AM

[HornEd]

Craig, I intend to build a center channel out of one of the KLF-10's and flank them with my last remaining pair. Who knows, I may make centers out of all of them. The Academy and KLF-C7 have a lot going for them but I think they died on the production line because not enough people prefer robust sound over Twiggy cabinetry.

Until they change the way they mix 5.1 (and above), I am holding out for the "big box" sound of my mains. Since you are in England (my ancestral family still has a dairy farm in East Knoyle), you would probably fair better on shipping and such if you could dig up a pair of KLF's, make two new motor boards (it's relatively easy with a jig saw and a router)... enjoy one and sell one to some other Legend fancier.

The "horizontalized" KLF-10 makes a better than Academy center in my book... and I thin the Academy was probably the best Klipsch dedicated center made! Like the big tube subs seem to indicated... sometimes you just need the cubic inches to come out "ear ecstatic!" 5.1 has just changed the landscape on what can be done with full range speakers.

Keep your eyes open your KLF day will come. HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-04-2002 at 07:03 PM

[Seb]

Pardon me to add to an already very complete thread, but I think my experience, although not using Klipsch speakers, could be of interest.

I finally had some time to myself to try out the phantom idea on my system. Now, I'm going to have to post my equipment here, and I am very ashamed. Please don't laugh and remember I'm only starting out in life and on my quest for audio nirvana...

I'm using a Sony str-db830 receiver with Sony speakers in front. You can check out pictures on my very crude website @ http://sebdavid.150m.com

I have my Paradigm PW-2200 handling all the bass, all speakers set to small. The Sony center (which isn't a center to start with) sounds quite different than the mains, and in my opinion, not as good. But since it is quite large for a center, I've always been quite satisfied with its performance, and wasn't convinced using the phantom mode would be of any benefit to my system and ears.

For this test, I used the trusty old Matrix DVD in Dolby Digital. I listened to the Lobby Shooting Spree scene as well as the one where Neo is told the story of the Matrix by Morpheus, with Morpheus' trademark eerie voice.

I'm of course used to listening to those scenes with the center set to yes, and I watched the LSS scene that way at first. Then I switched to the phantom mode. To be honest, this scene has such an overload (not to say confusion) of sounds coming from everywhere that I really didn't notice much difference at first. After playing the scene back and forth a couple times, the only thing I could notice was a little less impact on sounds coming from the center in phantom mode, probably linked to the weaker "anchoring" of the center sounds to the screen and center of the soundstage. Not a huge difference again, but certainly didn't help the phantom theory. Figured it must be because my center speaker was in fact pretty large.

And then I played the "talking" scene. Again, at first I didn't notice all that much difference, since the sound of Morpheus' voice isn't really anchored in the center speaker when he shows the real world to Neo. Again, however, what I wrote above still holds true for that scene, with a slight advantage to the center set to yes. But when I got to the last couple seconds, when they are back in the plain white environment, his voice really comes from the center, and it is here that I noticed the most dramatic difference. In the phantom mode, his voice seemed more "movie-theater-like". It wasn't as anchored in the center, however it sounded better. Not more realistic, mind you, I never heard the actor in real life, so... But it had an impression of grandeur, of theater-like articulation, it was more impressive, and sounded more like you were listening through multiple speakers in a huge room or soundstage. Exactly like the difference I usually notice between my home theater and any local multiplex, it's just bigger, seems to come from higher. So here, I would give an advantage to the phantom mode.

Now, this is only my experience and your mileage will vary greatly. There are serious drawbacks to using the phantom mode: when sitting ever so slightly off-axis, you totally lose the anchoring effect, which is already not as pronounced when you sit on axis. Also, in my configuration, the center sounds seemed to have less impact, maybe because they came from two different sources and thus are separated in two different signals that don't reach my ears in an identical fashion, thanks to room acoustics. Now I really don't know which setting to use. I'll try both with some movies I watch, without specifically setting up a test session, and decide which works better on average. I will probably stick with the center enabled, but it's a close call in my environment.

more people should try this easy test, I think it could help us reach a concensus. Signing out.

This message has been edited by Seb on 02-04-2002 at 07:30 PM

[HornEd]

Seb, I think you illustrated some points I was trying to make. 1. That a larger center handles 5.1 better... and you have a larger center. 2. That an on axis Phantom provides a lot more "center channel" than most people realize in their own rigs... before the benefits of a real center channel are added in. 3. That "theatre sound" you were alluding to is even much more a factor when you have a center that exactly matches your mains.

The test is simple and very revealing. It would seem to me at the price of "approved" center channels today that the performance bar should be higher than any Phantom center could come close to. I am not for doing away with center channels, I am for making center channels into what they ought to be for being the recipient of more sound material than all of the other speakers put together.

By the way, that is a great test to request in an audio store... it would tend to make a less-than-knowledgeable salesman sit up and take notice of us serious consumers. It is not how much you spend that makes you a serious consumer... it's how much thought you put into it! Let's help each other get smarter about this stuff. Take the test and post your comments. Thanks for taking the time to 'fess up and share, Seb! HornEd