Rockets

You wanna improve their looks?? Ship them to my house. They'd look 100% better there. Those are no doubt beautimis!

Then we are truly lost. God help us.

I try to buy American when and where I can. I bought a Little Giant ladder, made here in the USA. I could have spent a lot less and bought a Chinese sweat shop made knock off, but I couldn't do it. However, sometimes there just is no feasible alternative, and it's HARD as hell to find items made here anymore. I'd like to have an American made audio amp. I bought Harman Kardon. It used to be made here in the States, but no more. Frankly I can't afford, or maybe justify... spending three times as much on some of the really high end amps that are made here. I know, I'm a hypocrite. <sigh> We all have our limits and budgets. Bankers?? You mean the same SOB's that took the bail out, but won't disclose how they spent it on bonuses and "retreats"?? Nothing wrong with that. They got theirs...I hope there's a specal place in hell for them too. Most people don't get it. They see no harm in buying cheaper foreign goods. Clothing is just yet another example. Our mills are closing. Who just exactly is going to make the uniforms for our troops? It would not surprise me if they are already being made in China. What happens when China is no longer our friend? You know it's the smallest little detail that's going to kill us. That Achilles heel. Don't get me started on food from them........They don't have to nuke us, all they need to do is FEED us. As far as the illegal immigrants. I really could care less. They're coming here for a reason...someone is hiring them...no jobs, no illegals. pretty simple actually. Who's going to pick your cotton? You?? I know one group of Americans that won't now matter what the pay. Issue the illegals cards, tax them like everyone else and be done with it. It's a losing battle otherwise. I know one thing that won't work and that's that damn fence. They figured out how to breach those things in the middle ages. It's called a ladder. A tunnnel will work too. What it boils down to is National Sovereignty...and we are rapidly losing ours.

All I know is the same beans run through a drip pot vs. the espresso maker above and the taste is totally different. I'm not saying the drip made is bad, but the flavors are enhanced w/ a crema head to boot. Kind of like going to larger horns...

Bhenry, I hear you. It's almost in vogue not to drive an American 'brand' car. Problem is the automakers did to themselves many years ago, with poor quality and arrogant mentality. Once the brand loyalty, and more importantly public trust was lost, they obviously began to suffer. . It takes a LONNNNNg time to recover. Remember the Tylenol scare years ago? Many companies never recover and go out of business. STILL, we as a Country need them, or so I think I hear over and over again that the US cars are more expensive than the imports. One of the many reasons why is because virtually none of the imports ahve any retiree benefits they need to cover. NONE! Whereas GM has three retirees for evey one worker bee. So, what do you do strip the retirees of their benefits and put them instead on Federal assistance? Anyone want to give up their retirement? Another thing is when an import company sells twice as many units as you, his fixed overhead costs, are now only half of the competitions. I feel for the poor Chinese. Why I'll bet even with their factory closeures, our trade deficit is still probably 10:1 with China as a whole. ( Okay, ya got me...it's something less than 10:1 but greather than 1:1) We could compete with them too, if we all made a nickle an hour. Anyone here want to do that? Who makes the most American car? It's probably a tie. NO one makes all of their compnents. Most import many of their parts and only assemble the vehicles here. Yeah, I know Dodge bought into NAFTA and assembles south of the border. All in all I'd have to give the tie breaker to the Big Three because they do both employee American's and the profits come home too. Okay, I'm done. I've hijacked this tread long enough. When we are all out of jobs, at least the lawyers and Chinese will still have one...

re: Also what do we need to defend ourselves from? Maybe, I read more into your comment than what was there. So this is just an assumption on my part... history wasn't your favorite subject was it? All of the great societies prior to us didn't just farm out their defense, but they might as well had. They didn't have airplanes to crash into buildings with, but they did have wooden horses. So who do we need to defend ourselves from?? The short answer is ourselves... Boeing walked away from the tanker dispute, as the Air Farce decided they wanted a bigger plane after all. They wanted Boeing to complete the new RFP before Boeing felt they could properly run the numbers on the now "supersize me" plane. The Pentagon then shelved the project, until the new administration can provide direction. McDonnell Douglas did not fold up shop because they lost a few military contracts either. At one point and time they were THE leading military contractor. However, no areospace company can survive being a one trick pony. With Boeing being the number one airplane maker and Airbus coming on strong, the fear of being squeezed out of the commercial air frame market (like Lockeed) was very real. So instead of fighting them, they joined them in the name of Boeing. With India and China now climbing on board the aerospace train, it would not surprise me if EADs and Boeing don't merge in the future. Merry Christmas!

Bhenry, I could not agree more. We have a real problem here in the US, and we don't make or produce hardly anythng anymore. What are our kids going to do for jobs?? Build solar cells and windmills?? The bigger problem is this. Once we lose our industrial base, we lose the ability to produce our war materials. You can't defend yourself if you;re buying crap from someone else to do it. I don't care if it's a microchip, steel or whatever. We are screwed, blued and tatoo'd once we go down that road, and we are already starting due to costs and politics. Look at EADS wanting to build our next tanker. The Air Force one helicopter, is from Europe. I could go on, but I'd better shut up now.... FWIW, I just bought a 08' Ford Taurus X. Only to learn later, it's based upon a Volvo platform. Ford own's Volvo, but you can't win. http://reviews.carreview.com/blog/2008-ford-taurus-x-limited-review-a-family-guys-perspective/

A few years ago I bought my wife one of these http://salestores.com/saeco305.html though, I didn't pay that much for it... It's really a pretty sweet machine.

Bruce, I totally agree with you that most, myself included, wouldn't normally push them that hard. For my intended purpose, they will do fine. Still, I had thought about loaning these out to someone who probably would, and I just don't think they're up to that job. Many people wouldn't notice, but I do. A Cornscala would be a much better choice for him, but I don't have one of those to audition either.

Since my K-24's were blown I went with the JBL 2213H woofers (higher watt replacement for the 123a ) and ported the boxes. The good news is you will get lower frequency extension. The bad news is, the Hall effect I've encountered at high volume. Most noticable is the vocals. I've also heard the K-24 will also do this, but w/o one to plug in I can't give you a first hand account.

Just a follow up. Went back to the Heresy crossover for the woofer, and it has definitely helped. The hall effect is still there, but to a lesser extent. The louder you crank them the more noticeable it becomes, plugged or unplugged it doesn't matter. I don't think there's anything else I can do, short of finding another woofer, to correct it, and I don't think using a K-24 is the answer. As far as the porting for gains in the lower end, I'm happy with the results. I wish I could measure the output in order to share the results, but I'm not able to.

Thanks Marvel, I'll flop them and see. I'm not expecting a miracle, as I've read they're rather bi-sexual, and really don't care how you hook them up. Here they tell you to reverse them http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20ts.pdf and of course now when I want it, I can't find it...the JBL link that says you can wire it either way. [] I'll put in an order to PE today for the crossover parts...not looking forwad to ripping these speakers back apart to do the mod though. I guess I'm not convinced it's going to cure the problem, tame it yes, fix it no. It should cure another issue, or so I think, with the mids sounding so proud. For S&G's I did run some test tones through them. As expected 25hz was fairly weak, but got progressively better as it went up the scale. Thanks for your input. TC

I told you...I was a hack...[] No, I ran them straight out like the L100 and let them die a natural death. [*-)] My memory evidently isn't what it should be, and I thought they died at a much younger age... I looked them back up this morning and realized this could be part of the issue. So yeah, I could kill them off to match the mid at 700 hz. That will no doubt help, but not fix the entire range. The more I listen though, I know I need to do this, even if it doesn't cure the hall effect. The BIG question is, how can JBL get away with running this driver out to 1200 to 1500 hz at 150 watts in a similar sized ported box and I can't? Even if I were to unplug the MF and HF I would still have this Hall effect. This would lead me to believe the issue is inherent to the driver, but I think I know better, or at least refuse to believe it's the driver.. If I understood you right, you had similar Hall effects w/ the K24 and w/o modifying the stock crossover, correct?? So it's not just a matter of the crossing over at 700hz right? The cause is really a time delay right?? It's not a polarity issue, or is it? I've read conflicting info on connecting the JBL 2213H, where one report is it's positive, the other says it's negative and another says it doesn't matter, so I blew it off. Maybe, I'm just expecting too much. When I switch over to my LaScalas, it's not just a night and day difference, it's the whole damn Universe! Thanks

The thing is with the LaScala's is once you get the itch again, there are so many options out there to tinker with. New crossovers, different midrange horns and drivers, and tweeters too! Soon you'll be broke like many of us, and the itch will be cured...... With the RF-7's it's pretty much a one shot deal.... You can't brag to your friends that you actually d****** with the already great design and made it better! Not that it matters but, I own three LaScalas, two Altec 511E's, two Altec 290's, three JBL 2404H's and a Klipsch RT-12D sub. (Ok, I have a few more 511's and asst. other drivers...I'm not addicted... I'm broke... I'll be "HAPPY" when I can modify the cabinets to hold the above...and upgrade the crossover....and... It doesn't get much better in my mind....but I've never heard the Jube. Be careful what you ask for... [] TC

A 4" port looks big as hell when you're in the store and mentally trying to size up fitting it into a rather small Heresy box...at least for me it was. The port I'm using is basically 3" PVC w/ one 90 elbow that I shortened on one end to fit as flush as possible against the back wall. overall length including the bend is about 9 to 10 inches. It's epoxied in place w/ DP190. As far as the Hall effect. I was all set to say that I thought it's the diaphram or driver. I say this because I pulled the woofer out and replaced it w/ the dead K-24. I ran a wire out thru the port to connect to the external JBL 2213H for amp loading purposes. No change in the Hall effect. Plugged the port, No change. Pulled the midrange and roped it. No real change. And then as I as standing over the woofer, it was quite apparent who the offensive party was. I'm shocked really. Not that you were right, but I really didn't expect it out of this woofer. I can't believe L100 owners have never posted about this on the other board. Given the L100 has such a great reputation, this just doesn't add up for me. The fact you had similar results with the Klipsch driver, makes me think I'm just missing something. One thing I could and probably should do is put the 2nd order 700hz kill switch back into the woofer circuit. I had forgotten the roll off on the JBL was around 1200 hz, and some reason I thought it was much lower. This may help on two fronts, but doesn't solve the entire riddle for me. Marvel, do you ever crank up your 4311's?? Ever notice any hall effect coming out of them?? I'm guessing I'm hitting 75 to 80 watts when it starts to become apparent. I can't imagine what it'd sound like if I had a bigger amp. Maybe I need to take it outside...[H] For what it's worth, I didn't cross brace. I implanted some 1/2" plywood. Screwed and glued to the internal sides.. No air leaks. I replaced all the weather stripping around the speakers. That's it, that's all I have for now. Thanks TC

150 watts is good to know. I don't have an amp that big, which is a good thing, otherwise the cops would visit me for sure. Once I have some of these other issues ironed out, I was thinking of loaning these out to a friend that plays in a band as he's been looking for some easy to transport speakers for smaller gigs. I'll need to verify w/ him what he has and if it's clean before these go out of my door. Thanks

Thanks Mike for the reply. As far as porting, I stole from others. For instance Gordon, over on the 'other' forum said this "I currently have a pair of 123A-1 drivers in about this exact cabinet- 2.4 cubic feet (66 liters, plus or minus), tuned to about 30 Hz with a 4" diameter, 8" long port. They definitely do have prodigious output, and don't require a lot of power to do it! Not "hi-fi flat" exactly, but lots of bass slam. Just the ticket for DJ/small PA... Regards, Gordon." If anything, I should probably not add any Poly, but add a brick as Gordon further states: Use the L100 box... 1.6 cubic feet (~44 liters), with a 3" (~75mm) diameter round port, about 9 inches (~180mm) total length. Tuning of about 30-31 Hz, f3 of about 43 Hz, nice "fat" midbass that will pound the #*&^% out of you at 80 Hz... If he's looking for power handling as an ultimate goal, the ported design with the 9" long port in the 44liter box will out-slam every other option using this driver, and will have good control over the driver with respect to excursion, down to port resonance. I'd use a 25 or 30 Hz rumble filter on it (just below port resonance)... with that, you'd be hard-pressed to damage it, unless you simply tried to slam over 200 watts into the cabinet continuously or something (ie, sheer over-power, burning it to the ground and whatnot)... Frankly, I was afraid to cut a 4" hole in the cabinet. I was afraid that I'd have interference issues mounting the horn, which looking back may not have been the case, but when you're looking at a piece of 4" tube w/ an elbow, they're giant looking compared to the small Heresy box. As far as the hall effect... I've read no where else of anyone having a similar issue, and when I thump the horn lens, it leaves a lot to be desired. Don't get me wrong, I think you may be on to something, but I'm not sure if downsizing the port is the answer. In my case, listening to Jim Morrison at a moderately high level, (Ok, My ears were later ringing) his vocals are such, that he sounds like he's singing in a hall. Since the midrange produces most of these frequencies, it led me to think the horn was resonating, or the diaphram was near it's limit. If the horn is resonating, then I can see where those frequencies would indeed bounce around inside the cabinet and out the port. (normally I don't crank the amp up this loud, but I plan to use these speakers outside on my deck, and the party mode may require it...before the cops show up) Why would the horn resonate when ported and not when sealed is the question. Just for S&G's I'm going to dampen the horns and see if it makes any difference at all. I mean they should be the only source of the problem. I can't see the comprssion driver body/magnet resonating enough to cause it. If not then, I'll partially plug the ports...maybe use some of my wife's excess Turkey stuffing.... I'll let you know... Short of messing with the port, adding rope caulk to the horns, is there another solution to dampen the internal resonance? Ideally, you should treat the source first, but if that's not possible.... I've been told lining the cabinet w/dense foam like neoprene isn't the answer, so what is? As far as the poly question, originally these HP-1's I have lived a hard, hard life. When I brought them home they REEEEEEEEKED of smoke from living in bars, and hanging out with tramps that only liked them because of the size of their horn. Inside they had a 1" by 12" by 18" foam pad that layed in the bottom of the cabinet, which also stunk. Knowing I was probably just shy of the 2.4 cu. ft internal measurements used above, I thought adding some poly would help improve things, but I didn't really know how much was too much. Reading your comment above, I gather the box ain't big enough for me to get all of the required stuffing...If I understand you correctly. If anything, using any at all, may hurt me given my trade off with the smaller diameter port, and I may need to reduce the internal cabinet size. I'll probably leave the crossover alone. They killed my lab at work, so access to the necessary test equipment is gone. W/O being able to see the changes being made I'd be there forever playing an expensive guessing game...which I'm already playing now! The only difference now is I'm adapting the knowledge of others..and it's still biting me!. Home Despot is closed today, so tomorrow will be the earliest for me to play. I'll let you know my results. Thanks for the help, TC

$961??? Is that all??? For a new Belle?? Good Lord.........

Marvel the 2213 is 50 watts from what I can tell, but the 2213H is 75 watts. TC

Thanks for the link Doc, it was interesting. I have a confession to make though. I'm a Heretic... not only am I a heritic, but I'm also a hack. I replaced the blown K-24's with JBL 2213h's...the pro version of the JBL 123a3, but rated at 75 watts continious. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Thiele%20Small%20Parameters/Theile%20Parameters.pdf I ported the boxes, rebuilt the crossovers, stiffiened the walls, added some fluff inside the box and dampened the carry handles...would have done the horns, but I ran out of material. I wish I had some measuring equipment so I could quantify what I'm hearing, but I don't. I'm going to do a search online to see if I can find a audio test track that I can play through them. If need be I'll hook up my tone generator, but still won't be able to plot the waveform. If anyone has the spare time and software to predict the waveform using the JBL 2213h in a Heresey box, w/ a 3" X 10" port and the only real change to the crossover was letting the woofer roll off on its own...no 2nd order .. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/39682/361064.aspx#361064 I'd APPRECIATE it. I should have asked before I dorked around with it...[:$] I have to tell you I am curious though. As Mike noted in his thread the horns seem to slightly overdrive the woofers, I think I'd agree with him. Most people wouldn't notice, but a -3 db midrange cut would be nice. Anyway, I have a new problem of sorts. When I crank the crap out of the speakers, the woofers really come to life and you can feel the thumps of the bass. The bad news is the ( K-53?...definitely not the k-55) midrange begins to sound like you're in a concert hall. I don't know if it's the horns resonating or if I'm pushing the diaphrams to their limits. Before I open these things back up and start doping them with rope caulk...any thoughts?? My amp is clean and w/o distortion, so I'm going to discount that as a cause. One other comment, these can't hold a candle to my LaScalas, no surprise there, but even when I did an A/B and had the Lascala channel cut down -10db, they were still noticeably louder and had more bass. (there's a shock) I wish I had another pair of Heresies to compare with, or at least another K-24. Once I solve the Hall effect, I'm going to call this project done! Over all I'm pretty happy with them. The overall sound quality is pretty damn good, just slightly out of balance to my ear...which may be a characteristic of the Hersey...not sure. I plan on using these on my deck, so it's not that big of a deal. Any thoughts on the Hall effect, and the proper amount of polyester fluff to use woould be appreciated. Anybody need any K-24 spiders? You can have them for FREE. Just pay the freight, and cost of materials for packing. Thanks TC

I can recall no previous issues w/ the Doc, so I don't know what to think, Way to go Dtel...just keep stirring that pot...I was going to let it go, and then you had to go go there[](just kidding) TC .

I hear ya. If my woofers were not toast, I'd follow your path. However, since I need to replace them...I may diverge over to the dark side and marry part of theirs with Klipsch. It's just less work for me! THANKS for all of your input! TC

Marvel, I pulled this off the Altec site. An original L100 (with the LE20 tweeter), has a 2" diameter vent in the front baffle, with no tube (1" vent length, due to the 1" thick baffle). This gave a tuning frequency of right at 41 Hz. The L100A (with the LE25 tweeter, and the "elbowed" vent tube) had a vent frequency of right at 31 Hz. The dimensions of these HP-1's are about 667 cu In bigger than the L100a. So I guess if I were to go that route w/ a JBL 123a3 I'd need a 9" cubed brick...or something close! in any case 31 hz ain't too shabby.

Marvel, no real rush. I am curious though, but I also need time to think about it anyway. Do I add a cubic ft to the existing cabinet, port and stick with the K-22 for a bottom end of 38hz and 100w capability? Or do I port the cabinet as is, and add either a JBL 123a @ 50 watts or JBL 2213H @75 watts for a possible low of 25 hz? Decisions, decisions... Actually I've use the JBL123a before on my back porch speakers. I knew they had some bass, but never knew how low. These were and absolute nightmare for me to install. I know they look simple, but I SUCK at wood working. The other problems were i ASSumed my walls were square and I pre-cut my pieces. Then, a couple of compound angles popped up that I had to deal with. I ended up putting in a zillion stainless screws to draw everthing together...and I never finished painting their sorry little heads!

Mike Colter... my crossovers look a lot like these posted by BC http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/76053.aspx?PageIndex=1 with the round cup. They may be E2's, but I'm not sure. I was trying to avoid tearing them apart to measure them, before I had a schematic, but may reverse engineer anyway. Marvel... I could kill you! [] I really was trying to avoid getting deep into another project. All I wanted to do was change a driver, drill a hole and be done with it. Then you had to throw that teaser out there...Now you've got me dreaming....adding a 1 cu. ft basement might not be that time consuming. (this is how I get myself into trouble time and time again) What size ports do you think those are on the Tangent 400, about 2" ?? Would using the 200w K-42 kill the bottom end by much??? I don't need that much power, but now I'm thinking about thise guy I work with that's in a band, who's looking for some midsize, full range portable speakers. Thanks! TC