mikebse2a3

Hi jfmacken: I don't think risers will change what your describing but I do like heresys on the angle risers pointed toward me.Do try moving them in relation to the side and front walls. It's free and might achieve what you want. First if you like the sound with the eq your using thats what matters. I personally if possible would rather work with speaker/listener placement than use an eq but sometimes we do what we have to. If you want to try something; play your 1khz tone (and some of the lower freq. while walking around) and then while listening move your head about 1 foot in any direction. in alot of rooms you will hear the sound level rise and fall and the same thing will happen with meter readings.Your hearing/measuring the modal responce of your room. Actually I believe warbletone type test(avaible on some test CDs like sterophile) would be a better way for you to test/listen than single test tones like this. mike

DrWho says; "Anyways, I just realized that I never talked much about the mids and the highs in my review". ----------------------------- "There was a clarity I've never heard before in the home when listening to the khorns...There was no way to differentiate between a real instrument and the speaker...In fact, I'd argue that the speaker sounds better because a mic was placed in the optimal position for the best balance of all the sounds from the instrument and then I get to sit back further away and enjoy a room filled with that point in space that was recorded. The best term I can come up with is "clear", like looking through newly cleaned glass (the kind your dog will run into because he can't see it either, hehe). Another term that came to mind was "HUGE". The sound was extremely deep and large and powerful and effortless". ---------------------------------- Hey artto: From a couple of post I've read of yours I assume your KHorns are still stock is this correct? The reason I ask is because I had mentioned in another thread that I've been wondering if alot of the problems people are attributing to the stock squawker & tweeter horns & drivers aren't really acoustical/room problems. I believe your room is one that proves that the stock drivers/horns are actually capable of very high performance if given a good enviroment and thus the first thing people wanting to upgrade their sound isn't swapping drivers/horns but instead (if things permit) treating their rooms would be the the best choice.Especially some form of diffusion can go along ways toward clearing up edginess and increasing detail in the Squawker/tweeter range.At least if treatments are done first and improvements are still felt to be needed you would atleast be able to hear any improvements better. mike

Thanks for the replies artto: I've observed what you said also about diffusors being to close to you and causing problems on the back wall as well as if the side walls are close you can definitly get some unpleasent coloration interference.Thats what got me to wondering about trying to delay some of the reflections to the listener by maybe redirecting them to a later point in time trying to simulate a larger space.I do realise their are problems with this since there is no way I can truely simulate a larger space full bandwidth since any panel/diffusor/absorber are bandwidth limited so I can see how some frequency would be delayed and some wouldn't which will probably just create a different coloration.I see that a small room is a limitation that can never be fully overcome (I'm trying to find ways to manipulate the room to give the room higher resolution and natural sound than its size will permit untreated) as compared to a more ideal sized listening room.I'm just trying to optimize the room I have to live with at this time.Thats why for me alot of trial and error is necessary because I can't be sure what the brain is going to accept in my situation. Again thanks for the thoughts artto its nice to talk to someone about these things because I've not met anyone around here that seems to even be aware or cares about these acoustical things. mike

DrWho Your observation on recording qualties is dead on and I don't think it will change for an extremely long time if ever.How frustrating when a recording sounds pretty good on a car radio say only to sound unlistenable on a really good system. So what can we do about it if we want realistic reproduction when the recordings vary all over the place? There are times when I've had to use a Dynaco Pass preamp with tone controls just to be able to get listenable sound on some recordings that I or friends want to hear. I've decided at this point in time to setup my system to play recordings that are recorded with great care to capture a realistic sound and then if necessary alter its sound with the Dynaco Preamp when recordings need help to sound good. I'd guess an equalizer with several programble settings would be better for this purpose. mike

---------------- On 7/31/2004 4:10:50 PM jfmacken wrote: Strange. I picked up a spl meter and did some graphs. Oddly enough, my woofer is down about 6 db in the 400-700 hz range, when playing at 100db (at 1k). Simply using an eq seems to really help things out though. If I were to attenuate both the mid and tweeter (to hear the woofer more), I would probably end up with an excess of db in the sub-300hz region. I have no idea how the room acoustics factor in this particular area, but the eq seems to be doing the job! ---------------- jfmacken Just an idea but are your speakers located on stands or the floor? How far from the center of the woofer to the floor/sidewall/frontwall are they? Wavelengths for the 400-700hz are between 2.825'to 1.614' so its possible that you could be getting boundry cancellation effects from the floor/sidewalls/frontwall if your located close to any of them.If you haven't you can try moving the heresy slightly in relation to these boundrys and see how this affects the measurements/sound your getting. Where is the meter located when your measuring this also? Any reflections close to the meter or your listening postion could cause these readings also. mike

Hi trader I'm pretty sure the heresy woofer you have isn't the electro voice one I believe it has a orange surround. Also the woofer does have whats called a mud magnet it isn't alnico. mike

Let me guess. The music was very dynamic and life like. You could here the room acoustics(side/back walls of the recording venues. Great clarity/detail and vocals that are so realistic! Soundstage that was very three demisional and a very accurate since of scale! The system created an emotional connection with the artist's music!! now I'm DEPRESSED mike

Hey artto You've probably read also that one of the design features of the skyline diffusor is that it virtually eliminates the specular component of the incident sound wave which is suppose to make it ideal for primary 1st reflection points that you want to treat. I'm using some of the 2'x2'x7" skyline diffusors on my ceiling and side walls. My current room is small so I went with these since they are recommended for situations where the rooms surfaces are close to the listening position which is definitly my situation.I like that they are very light weight for the ceiling use but they are made of expanded polystyrene foam which does make me nervous about maybe damaging them by using them in areas where someone could bump into them. I still need to try these in some different areas of the room to optimize their use but I've been very pleased with the results in my room so far. One idea I'm thinking of trying since I'm in such a small room is making some slightly angled panels to redirect the 1st reflection points on the side walls into the diffusors in the back part of the room. I believe this would maybe help by dealing with the first reflection point but delaying the diffussion to a later point in time when it would be more beneficial in my smaller room.I'm like you I've not had much success with absorption at these points it just seems to create an unnatural tonal balance and can seem to suck the life out of the music. Have you tried anything like this? By the way have you also noticed the shape optimized diffusors that RPG are developing now. It looks to me like they have basically concave and convex curves arayed on an arc shape.Kind of like a wavey poly. mike

---------------- On 7/30/2004 6:46:26 PM artto wrote: No I haven't Mike. But I have read some of their "papers". Is this book available on Amazon or anything? Kinda pricey. ---------------- Yes thats how I felt. Its available on Amazon($149 to $159) and signed copys from RPG but I don't know at what cost. I'd sure like to see a copy to see how much information about diffusers and small room acoustics was in it before spending that much. thanks artto mike

Hey artto Thanks for the webb site really good reading. Have you by chance read the book (Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers; Theory Design and Application by Trevor J. Cox and Peter D'Antonio)of the RPG Company. I believe its about $149 new OUCH! http://www.rpginc.com/book/index.htm I would like to know what you think about it if you've seen it. Thanks mike

"Im starting to work backwards now that Ive got some speakers that I like. Now Im attacking my room. The only thing I see myself going after is some KHORNS in the future" Hi charlieboy I know what you mean! I made a decision along time ago after hearing the Khorns for the first time (and several times after) that, that sound was so real I couldn't imagine wanting anything more. So I didn't rest till I finally got a pair of Khorns and figured I would work toward getting that sound I had heard that the Khorn is capable of. That special ability is so fragile and easly destroyed if things aren't set up just right (to me all speakers have needs if your wanting all they can do).What I mean is the Khorn has a combination of capabilities that no other speaker I've ever heard could do. So I wanted off the merry go round with speakers and decided that the Khorns was the way to go for me and I would do the best I could to accommodate them.So I've always worked on the acoustics of any room I've had them in to get the best sound that the Khorns and the room were capable of and I believe the Khorns played whatever room I had them in as good or better than any other speaker I could put in their place.I sincerely believe that alot of problems and criticism that people are modifying their Khorns for would actually be found to be room acoustic problems not being addressed properly for the Khorn. Anyone knows all you have to do is move a speaker a foot or so and the sound can shift dramatically and to me this should be a real eye opener that whatever speakers you have your listening to the speaker through the room and if its neglected you'll never get the best sound you can. Enjoy your room treatment journey (I don't believe it ever ends because I still like trying things to see if I can improve things) just don't drive yourself crazy with it instead use it to learn. I know I'm still surprised at some of the things that I observe about acoustics! Be sure and update us when you get to play with the tube traps! mike

My experience has been very favorable with the ASC products and my understanding back when I was ordering from them was that they build once they get an order and have very little stock already made up (Kind of like the way Klipsch use to do).I have been very pleased with the quality of their products especially the Tube Traps. Have you read some of there articles on acoustics? I thought they were very good. I believe once you get the products you've ordered you'll see that they were well worth the wait your going through and expense. People seem to feel OK about spending money on electronics but don't seem to see the need for room treatment. I sincerely believe you get the most for your money if you invest it in your speakers and acoustical room treatments than anywhere else in a system. It will allow you to get the best sound out of whatever electronics you have now and in the future. The room really is the weakest link that most of use face in trying to get the best sound we can. mike

A few more pictures of polys in the Klipsch Museum. mikeb

DrWho here is a picture of how some polys where used in what was the Klipsch Museum in Hope,Ark. This was taken in the late 1980s There in between the windows. mikeb

Hi DrWho I hope this picture comes out OK I'm new at this. This is from a room I use to have and the tall brown panel is a polycylindrical diffusor I had built. I used two oak strips on each side which I had cut a deep grove in for the masonite panel to slide into. Then I ran screws from the back side to lock them together. I also placed eye bolts in the oak strips and used small chains with s hooks on them to adjust the depth of the bow of the poly. I'm sure artto can give you alot better advice since he has alot of experience using these. I've made polys out of clear lexan (which can be bent)when I wanted them to not be as obvious like infront of windows or maybe on the ceilings. I would encourage you to get F. Alton Everest (Master Handbook of Acoustics) and read up on acoustics.In his book he says polys of chord length(Widths)of 2 to 6 feet and depths of 6 to 18 inches meet most needs. You want a mixture of poly sizes and orientations for best results also. There is alot you can do with the polys and what I,ve written just scratches the surface! Also notice the white panel leaned against the poly its one of those ceiling tile panels I was playing with at one time I definitly wouldn't recommend them they cause more problems than they cure IMO. mikeb

Hi D-MAN Thanks for showing your work. Your doing great! please share more pictures and details as you explore this. mikeb

"Sorry to pop your bubble too, but this is another big misconception. And it indicates a nearly complete lack of understanding of acoustic principals and acoustic properties of materials. I don't have time to fully respond to it tonight, but I will get to it tomorrow. In the meantime I suggest you throw that stuff out with your egg cartons." Its OK artto no bubbles busted here. I now use ASC tube traps and RPG diffusers in my room and understand there are limitations to any cheap treatments like whats been suggested in this thread. Even good products can cause problems if not used properly. On my way to using these products I've read about acoustics and tried many homemade devices learning along the way. I'm not claiming these will replace proper bass traps in the corners(these aren't bass traps) or will cure all the problems more properly designed products would do but in the spirit of the title of this thread I just wanted to suggest something cheap and in my case "when I couldn't afford much else but had more time" something that had a beneficial effect in my room at that time. By stacking these boxes from floor to ceiling in the rear corners of the room it cleaned up an audible problem in the vocal range of that room without any bad effect that I could detect for the cost of a roll of shipping tape and free cardboard. mikeb

Room Treatment on the Cheap! One thing that I've done playing with room acoustics that is very cheap is to take boxes or large pieces of cardboard and fold them into Triangular shapes and locating them in the corners of a room. I make sure and seal the boxes with shipping tape or something similar and you can leave them empty or stuff some of them, a mixture would probably be best to spread the absorption character of the boxes. I suppose you could paint or put paper on the boxes to decorate them up some. The advantage of these over some treatments is they will not deaden the room but they will clean up some room problems that fall in the midrange and lower. I could especially tell it cleaned up vocals in the room I tried this in. I've never heard a room that couldn't be improved with some kind of corner bass traps and this cheap trick will let you learn something about your own room acoustics.It can add some balance to your room acoustics especially if you have carpeted floors. As artto has basically said our rooms are our largest problems and cannot be ignored if you want the best sound you can achieve! Have FUN!!! mikeb

Thanks Jazman I appreciate any info and will be checking the site out. By the way for anyone interested I did try drilling a hole in one of the racquet balls (to release any air pressure) just to see what would happen and as far as the balls bouncing from about 7ft they both still bounce approximately the same amount and they both squash the same under the CD Player.For the purpose were trying to use them for I don't think it will make any difference letting the air escape.I guess the ball structure itself is the predominate factor in this case. AK-4 what name would you like in place of "the not live" ball mikeb

Thanks Tony for the www.mcmaster.com site. I would really like to try the dead balls you mention if you do locate any. Really interesting looking at the Durometer Range for hardness of common rubber,foam, plastic,and other objects. I noticed the Sorbothane they offer is rated at 40, 50, and 70 on the Shore 00 range and a racquet ball was rated at 35 on the Shore 00 range. Of course the racquet ball has air inside and how this might change things I'm not sure but I suppose it would act somewhat like a spring force. So if we drilled a hole in it to relieve the air compression it would be an interesting experiment. mikeb

Hi Tony Audioquest has sorbothane feet and sheets but I don't know how much they cost maybe you can find some reasonable alternative sources also. I believe I have an older style sorbothane feet called Big Feet by Audioquest and when I get time I'll try these under the CD Player and see what happens. I hope I didn't sound like I'm not for Dead type materials. Actually I've had alot of fun trying Sand in freezer bags, Small Inner tubes(For Lawn Mower Tires), Metal style cones and Air Bubble Packaging and various rubber mats. I just like to keep an open mind and try things especially if there cheap to try incase I don't like the results. Whats funny is alot of these things will change the sound sometimes but not always to suit my system at the time. I would encourage others to play with isolation devices just be carefull about spending lots of money on them but you can learn and have fun with the cheaper stuff. mike b

---------------- On 7/4/2004 8:27:22 PM sunnysal wrote: I tried various types of balls and half balls under my components, tennis, handball, squash, etc. my best results came from a totally different area. I used "dead" balls from a physics experiment set, the set contained "live" balls, which are roughly the same as a squash ball, they bounce a bit when dropped. the "dead" balls look exactly the same but do not bounce at all when dropped, this is because they are made from a material with a very low Coefficient of Restitution (i.e. butyl rubber), which means that the kinetic energy from a collision (drop on floor) is dissipated as heat inside the ball rather than returned as bounce. this translates nicely into working for vibration isolation since vibrations reaching the ball will be disippated in the same manner (after all vibrations are just lower magnitude kinetic energy), I have settled on these dead balls sitting in vibrapods (mainly to hold them in position) to isolate my amp and TT instead of any bouncy balls (i.e. tennis, squash, handball, etc.) and could not be happier with the results. regards, tony ---------------- Logical thinking would tell me that the more absorbing the isolaton device the better.I can remember trying different turntable mats when I owned a Thorens TD147. I tried the orginal hard mat,a very dead rubbery mat, and a felt type mat and all three had good and bad qualities.You would think the very damped rubber mat would give the best sound by damping the unwanted vibrations and indeed their did seem to be some increase in clarity but at the same time the sound was also kind of lifeless. I don't know but maybe the well damped mat was creating damping in just certain bands and thus making things stand out unnaturally I just know that even though the orginal hard rubber mat had less clarity its overall presentation was more pleasing. I've found equipment isolation and room treatments to have similar effects. I can treat the room and increase clarity but loose the life of the music and every equipment isolation I've tried has usually had some kind of good and bad result and that is why I was kind of suprised that the racquet balls under the CD player seem to be all good but I do believe the results someone else gets will depend on their individual equipment/setup. The main thing is for a few dollars people can try these cheap alternatives instead of spending $100 or $1000 on isolation devices. I have to keep reminding myself that all this we are doing is stereophony and at this time we are just creating an illusion of a real event. So with the limitations of what we are doing and our equipment I ultimately will tune things for whatever gives me the most realistic illusion knowing that I'm using alot of imperfect things trying to create this illusion! mikeb

Colin wrote: Since Gingkos research showed smaller racquet-size balls to be better, those are the ones I would use. Their advice is to weigh the front-end components and then use one ball for every ten pounds. So if the receiver weighs 15 and the CD player is five pounds, that is twenty pounds or two balls. Obviously two balls under the front-end equipment is NOT stable, so at least a third ball is required. That means however, that ten pounds of weight should be added as a platform between the units and the balls. A small $3 paving stone is dense and weighs about 20 pounds, meaning that with four balls (40/4), the combination makes a vibration isolation platform similar to the Vibraplane and the one I wrote a few years ago. In an article for EnjoyTheMusic.com, Save $1680, Simple to make platform isolates vibrations: Brings out details for CD and record players, on Tweak Page One (http://enjoythemusic.com/tweaks/), I detailed how air and rubber isolation improve the sound of front-end equipment. Mass also helps. The weight of the stone and components lowers the resonance of low energy waves, the bottom component of human hearing range. The front-end equipment should be coupled to each other, with space for air between the units, and the heavy platform. Blutack or sticky rubber is good. Racquet or tennis balls, cut in half are also popular with tweaking audiophiles. Personal correspondence with a reader last year indicated that large bubble wrap under a thick maple platform had bass extension almost the equal in measurement to the inner tube under a marble slab, with no bass hump at all. Bass was extended and taut. Vertical and lateral stability were second only to the small bubble wrap. So yes, four racquet balls under a 40 pound load seems to be the recommended ratio. tell me if you hear a difference at moderate to loud levels THANKS for the tip Colin! I tried three racquet balls under the CD player with extra weight and this is what I've noticed.The CD I played was JUNIOR WELLS (come on in this house) Telarc. 1st: Dynamics were improved. If you remove the balls your impression is like the volume was turned down. 2nd: the vocals, guitar and piano are more realistic and in the room with you. 3rd: imaging isn't as vague with more depth layering. 4th: Bass is tighter and easy to follow. 5th: I noticed improvements at all volume levels. I was curious and asked my girl friend to listen without telling her what I thought and her responce was: 1st Did you turn the Volume down! 2nd: the guitar is more real, everything is just more real sounding! Three racquet balls at wal-mart $2.50 man talk bang for the buck!! Thanks Again for the tip Colin mike b

If the pre-amp and amplifiers both invert polarity then hook the speakers up regular(+ to + & - to - ). mikeb

---------------- On 7/1/2004 7:18:48 AM Frzninvt wrote: 1984 I believe was the transition point to the AK crossover network, I think they were still using the K-55V but they may have K-55M midranges in them. They should still have the metal K-400 horns, the K-77M square magnet tweeters. If you are compelled to open the woofer trap doors on the side they should have the K-33E woofers in them. If any drivers have an "R" stamped on them that means that they have been replaced with a refurbished one from Klipsch. Good luck, I am certain that you will be happy. The parts for them are still readily available. Welcome to the forum. ---------------- I bought 79KHorns from a man in Nov. 1990 and he had recently updated them with AK-2 networks and K55M. I noticed the "R" stamped on the K55M drivers so I called Ginney who handled the parts questions at Klipsch at that time(Great Person and would go out of her way to help you like every one I ever talked to at Klipsch) and she told me the "R" meant that the driver was a replacement part and those carried less waranty than the orginal drivers but they are "New Parts" not rebuilt. mike