RFinco

I love my Def Techs. I think they sound fantastic. The only Klipsch speakers that I've enjoyed more were Heritage line, specifically Khorns in a "good" room. I've had many people over and they all have enjoyed my system, and I'm sure they would enjoy other systems as well. Now, with that said - I will say this.. I have listened to music on them maybe 10 times -- I have them for movies. Thats what I got them for. The other thing is I'm not useing seperates (maybe someday when I can cough up the dough) I'm useing a Pioneer Elite 49tx receiver, which - I do like, but I would prefer seperates at some point, particularly dedicated amplification. There are many many people out there that absolutely love the way Def Tech speakers sound. That doesn't mean they are the best thing since sliced bread, it just means some people like them, and vice versa - some don't. I've gotten into heated discussions about this, so I'm keeping it away from being derogatory in anyway toward anyone's particular sound prefrence. The built in subwoofers in the towers are very solid and the bi-pole design of the speakers (the back of the speaker matches the front so there are 2 tweeters and 4 midranges) Is something that I believe expands the sweet spot nicely but with that expansion comes trade off -- and they don't image as well as other speakers that I've heard. But, that isn't something that is important to me as a listener, or as important as it is for some. I have for my set up 2 BP2000TL towers - each with a 15" powered sub 1 C/L/R 2000 center channel 4 BPX surrounds powered by PIoneer ELITE 49tx receiver I love it. I'm quite pleased with it, and 99% of the time I've never heard a system I've liked more (the 802s, and John's all heritage system are that nasty little 1% -- hopefully Damon's will add to that 1% [])

I'm going to win. whoo hoo! Dude, your MS project is busted yo'. either that, or you didn't plan the variables correctly. where did you get your facts and figures for each stage of building and/or production?

Indy, That was me. Friend of DPayne's - along for the ride. Nice to meet you by the way, great conversation at the Jazz Kitchen, - You and your wife are very nice people. there were alot of technicals behind the speakers, no doubt - but the best speakers for me personally are the ones that don't sound like speakers, like there is a box somewhere reproducing the sound. they may SOUND fantastic, but they still are just a box reproducing the sound. I can hear this, and it is a standard by which I judge speakers.... Both sounded good - but, "A" definately sounded far more "real". Sadly, I can't quantitate this. I just hear what I hear....

January 14th, 9:38 A.M. Central Time I.E. 1 hour before the housing inspector condemms it for improper adhereance to the rules of color schemes designed around the patterns of migratory birds. but that's just a guess... my original "feel" was january - but I thought NNAAAAHHH nothing takes that long....but then, I remembered its building a house.

Far be it for me to continue this thread, but I do have to say--um...your electronics matching for your tests were not even in the same league as each other!!! I mean, you listened to the DEF techs on a Yamaha AVR and then sorta' compaired them to MLs on BAT and AIRE?? I'm not saying that one speaker is better than the other, but the listening conditions weren't even close!! its like saying, "I put Khorns on my sony portable cd player which had a hard time duplicating 5.1, and then I put ML's on all Bryston 2 channel, and wow, what a improvement--the ML's are *clearly* better..." I have no problems with whatever you like, but do your best to match the gear behind the speakers...its somewhat important-especially in MASSIVE differences as in your details. yes, I think Def techs are great for movies, lacking for music though.... I hope you don't think I'm blasting you here, because I'm not--I'm just saying that the listening you did, didn't really give a accurate compairison on any of the levels, be it klipsch, ML, or Def Tech. ---------------- Definitive Technology Listed to the BP7001SC and 2300 center channel. Great for movies but lacking in DVD-Audio and 2 channel imho. This could have been the room and amp (mid range Yamaha AVR. Great bank for the buck for HT! I wished the amp and processor where of higher quality. This I'm sure would have made a big difference. On to the ML's. This was 2 channel As a benchmark I listed to Wilson Watt Puppies just to compare. Of course the Wilsons where a bit more "refined" and vocals where somewhat more "natural" the biggest improvement was in bass. However the "puppies" where 3.5X more $$ too. BTW, the electronis was BAT prepro, FRELL mono blocks and a AYRE player, not bad stuff to have around. Regards, mm ----------------

Where is the dominant SUB expert to answer the call??? THE EAR? where are you? Stuck in your phonebooth changing into your SUBMAN costume?? I can see the spotlight over the fair city--a spotlight of a WOOFER larger than life.. SUBMAN WHERE ARE YOU WHEN YOU ARE SO DESPERATELY NEEDED?!!

---------------- On 11/16/2004 7:47:39 PM nicholtl wrote: Whoa, RFinco back from the dead! Where you been?? ---------------- glad to see (or horrified??) that I was remembered. Kudos to all of the forum members-and hello once again! I dropped off the planet for a while, wasn't doing so well in the "real" life, so wasn't doing anything in the virtual one... Nicholt and Champange --thanks for the inquiry! Minn_Male42: LOL. you were "kinda" saying this--but you were bashing the hell out of something I so dearly love! remember--way back when--I never said I didn't like Khorns, NOR did I say Def techs compared to them. I Listen to explosions and drum and bass and Techno, and for this sort of stuff-def techs are great. they don't have the nuances however of the Khorn (I still think def techs beat up on other klipsh "direct" speakers (aka the stuff that Paul K. didn't really design or implement--RF series for example), but thats a arguement for another day!! ) The Khorn makes subtle music shine--it brings the music forward, "enhances" the sound. Def techs aren't subtle--they fill the whole room and that cello being played--well its 10ft tall now and being played by a giant. This is great when I'm cranking CTEC, or a set from JOHN ACQUAVIVA or watching BLACK HAWK DOWN at nutty volumes--not so great when I want to "see" the music, or hear all the grace that certain sounds can have. If I had to pick one word that describes what Khorns have and what Def tech's lack---GRACE. So--def techs--if you want to party and have incredible movie "over the top" type sound (although--how is the "new" Klipsh THX nonsense?? is it everything it was supposed to be? I'm out of the loop here...). I still believe this, and I welcome people to come over and listen (though my BP c/l/r center 2000 is a bit tinny...I need a new one I think...) many audio places really like def tech--they stopped carrying them though because def tech in a stupid marketing idea decide to implement a "carry our whole line, or carry none" policy. Well--their higher end speakers are quite nice--their lower end stuff--eh...its fodder. Smaller audio companies who can't afford to have wasted stock were then forced to find a different speaker company to fufill certain price points. If I had my options for a dedicated home theater--I'd go with either Khorns with some beafy subs, or 802s. at those price points I question if you can do better.... For now though--I'm quite happy with what I have. I just wish my apt had more power!! (I have to turn everything off when I listen to a "hot" soundtrack for DTS 6.1...otherwise--the fuses go!! Butterfly effect Directors Cut when the sound would phase in for his dream sequences---it would just nuke my power!) How was the trip to the Klipsch Factory? I was going to go with DPayne and Jmoltly but, I was in a bad place at the time... Dpayne and I just watched CHRONICALS OF RIDDICK-Directors Cut tonight at my place--not bad...I mention cause I thought that was the movie that was seen on that trip??

---------------- On 11/14/2004 7:52:50 AM DTLongo wrote: Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the top of the line DefTechs with Klipschorns? If so, what were your impressions? ---------------- I've heard both--I haven't been back on here in quite a while, and the last time I posted about Def. Techs (of which I greatly enjoy) I got into a huge battle that was childish and esentially pointless. I've Heard Jmoltly's setup (sorry if I butchered your name J'!!!) and I've heard the top line Def techs (which are incredible for CERTAIN things, lacking in others -lacking only in a/b compairison though..) and I own BP2000Tls, and a all Def tech system. So with that said, my honest impression is this: Def techs are very hollywood--flashy, room-filling--but they lack accuracy and finnesse that is needed to make certain music truely shine. I like Def Tech's for movies, because they are larger than life--and their lack of "accuracy" (I'm useing accuracy as a relative term here, not in the pure audiophile sense of the word) transposes itself well to some film. For music--there is no question--the Khorns out perform the Def techs. Their imaging and dynamics are just incredible. In fact, I wouldn't even consider this a fair compairison. if you want to compare the KHORNS to something, I would say a better a/b would be B & W 802s. (this is a hard one...they both are termendous speakers and musically are just sooo nice to listen to...) There is a certain subtlety that a fantastic speaker maintains, and the def techs-though I love them, does not have this subtlety. I listen to lots of techno and other "garish" sounds, and the Khorns--if they could talk say "turn this crap off and play some "real" music on me!!" Def techs are club speakers. Khorns are true audiophile speakers. Hope this helps a little--feel free comment.

---------------- However, I am listing to my new Front Line Assembly CD (Civilization), which is some good Industrial stuff. I guess I run the gammut - but at the end of the day, I see it all as 'quality' music and not some jacka$$ screaming to a drum loop from a Korg Triton for 5 minuites ---------------- 'Civilization' is quite good...excellent choice. its about time Bill and Rhys get back together. I've been on a "TACTICAL NEURAL IMPLANT" marathon now....All "TNI" all the time...for the past 4 days anyway.. if you don't know it--get it. it and "implode" are FLA's best works... if you want some others--here are some names for ya'--some you'll know....VNV nation "empires", Covenant "Northern Lights" or "sequencer", Neurotic Fish, Apoptygma Berserk "7", Leather Strip "solitary Confinement", Sister Machine Gun "torture technique", Pop Will Eat Itself "Dos Deados Mi Amigos", The Fair Sex "virgin Superstar" Funker Vogt "execution Tracks", Cubanate "barbarossa" or "cyberia", Spahn Ranch "The Coiled One", Delirium "semantic Spaces", Underworld "dubnobassinmyheadman" those above are the cannon of the "new" industrial music era. sadly...industrial peaked around 1995....but, if you get those above you'll be ready to do a set at the local club...

Try this-- the JL Audio W6v2 10" in their "pro-wedge" enclosure. its serious. as for head units, you have two choices for top of the line sound quality. the audiophile unit but no bells or whistles: NAKAMICHI the High end unit, but with all the technology: ECLIPSE those are the ONLY head units worth their weight or price.

this is a interesting post and I think I may be able to help. what you need to do is look for cell-phone holders that LAW ENFORCEMENT uses, cause they seem to have the best most effective gear. I'm thinking of brands such as RAINE, EAGLE CREEK and one that is PERFECT for your situation..but alas--the name eludes me at current.... www.uscav.com go to US cavalry or BRIGADE QUARTERMASTERs on-line and you'll find something that is more suited to what you want--the "regular" cell-phone holders and such are not going to be what you need. I mention these brands because they have DEEP pockets and the velcro fasteners are usually very long, and can therefor acommodate different sized items... here--check this one out to give you an idea of what is out there--this is RAINE products... http://www.baproducts.com/raine.htm

---------------- On 5/11/2004 7:29:06 PM TheEAR wrote: True,Sony Japan has some products not seen in America.Like high end headpones,speakers and audio components.Sad some of these are not sold here,I was looking for Sony's high end closed headphones to no avail in Canada.Only special orders,these cans sell for 4000 USD! But when shoping for the ultimate in speakers Dynaudio and Focal plus Accuton drivers level all competition.The best Dynaudio makes make Klipsch look and sound like Cheapo Mart gear. ---------------- I've been reading about Sony's newest program to market to the High dollar crowd... here's the line--they are very hush hush about it, and the only "store" for this line is by appointment only--they even have their own signature fragrence that will be pushed through the air-vents of the showroom. http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/QUALIA/ Here's a great article detailing the QUALIA program. http://www.iht.com/articles/515551.html

ProDJ: I agree with EAR, that was a great post. something can't "suck" as fact. perhaps its more along the line of a perceived value perspective, and consumer pricing. i.e. for what you pay for sony you get less of "x"(quality, quantity, whatever variable works here) vs. this other brand. the problem is with sony "sucking" when looked at on this level, it may not be all that true. Sony, may not actually, suck. now...magnevox on the other hand....boy do they suck.

OOH! Soundgarden....man, did they have talent. As far as Metallica goes--their "new" breed of music is weak. Their old stuff is much better. Lars IS a joke, and though I don't like the whole death metal thing there are some AMAZING musicians in that genre...the drummer for "DEATH" comes to mind.... people that rave about NEW metallica are the band wagon people--the ones that first heard of them due to MTV.... They as a band are now everything they claimed they wouldn't be way back when. their transition reminds me of how hippies became yuppies...and Dinks (Dual income no kids)

The Entomonyics (SP?) are a MUCH better investment, and block quite a bit more noise, as they are 23 DB rated (yes--thats the same noise blocking rate of a maximum grade pair of industrial earplugs) they are pricey--but they not only are incredible for noise blocking, but they also are audiophile quality. the drawback is that they are earbuds. www.headphone.com check em out.

Not that I know much about this subject so do your own research... I know a big alternative to AutoCAD that many companies are useing is SOLIDWORKS. you might want to investigate that as well. This comes from people that I knew in the engineering and technology fields. autoCAD-as mentioned is HUGE, and can get difficult to manage--definitely take some classes if this is what you wish to learn. but--I wish you luck! I appreciate anyone that wishes to aquire new skills.

---------------- On 4/29/2004 11:11:42 AM IndyKlipschFan wrote: ========================================= Daymone.. Sometimes salesmen and saleswomen can be elitist snobs too. Find one that shares your passion with your gear, or your search for it, and you have a gem. I have two salesman here at the same store... It is like walking a tightrope to keep them both happy, sometimes sales go to one sometimes the other. ============================================================= --------------- I too have familiarity with the Flanners crew, and they are putzes. Their clients have a lot of money, don't shop around to find good prices, and buy a home theater just so they can have one--regardless of it being a passion or not. These types of clients reflect rather clearly in the sales staff at Flanners. I question if any truely passionate audiophiles EVER shop there. There are a few places around that are much smaller, and their service is MUCH better. The sales people at Flanners are also brainwashed to "like" whatever is selling during that particular period. I've had so many bad experiances with them that I long ago stopped giving them the "benifit of the doubt". its at the point now where i will drive out of state to purposely not give them any of my business. I know others that feel very similar as well... those were some good suggestions though! and...they'd work probably anywhere other than Flanners....but flanners is a sinking ship willing to sell you MONSTER XP for 'only' $1.65 a foot...(nope...not kidding...ripoff!!!)

I like a dispursed sound field. the very thing that people LOVE about monopole design is what I actually don't like about them. That "directness"--I don't want to be able to "pinpoint" anything...I don't want to know that the sound I just heard behind me was specifically from my right speaker... BUT!!!! there are people that do. For those I say--cool. and for those others that like the whole THX thing I say--cool. and despite my system my old roomate use to listen to movies and such out of ONE front speaker only--and to him I say..weird, but...cool. its opinion. its your money. like what you want.

---------------- Kodo, Mondo Head Leonard Cohen, I'm Your Man...THAT VOICE!!! Leaetherstrip. Penetrate the Satanic Citizen. Good for scaring customers! Kevin The Sound Broker ---------------- LOL! Leatherstrip in a audio store...hehe...PS--leatherstrips best album---Solitary Confinement, and if you want to hear some REALLY scary stuff--check out his side project--KLUTE. "dessert Storm remix" is a good one... Leonard Cohen..."tower of song" and "everybody knows" are favs. of mine... I've seen Kodo live twice now......all I can say is WOW! if you like them, check out SAVAGE AURAL HOTBED--a percussion team out of Minneapolis, MN. they don't just play drums though, they play...saws, 50 gal oil drums, large coil springs, those orange barrels on the sides of roads, and a few weird horn-funnel things that they built... Also: Check out 16 HORSEPOWER--"Low Estate" or "Sacloth and Ashes". nothing like you've ever heard, and if you like em' you'll never outgrow them. Also, they perform THE BEST live show I've ever seen, and I've seen them now about 6 times...each time...incredible.

personally, I actually prefer the "middle period" of metallica, i.e. my fav. being Master of Puppets. "Ride" is a great album, but it is a little slower, and darker than Master, although it's still great. In fact Master and Ride are two of the best metal albums ever. I never cared for Mustaine or his voice, and megadeath always left me feeling "eh". I guess i don't like the "higher pitch" stuff, but the growelly, gravelly voice is what I really enjoy, which at the time is what most WEREN'T doing...Ride the Lightning has a lot more of the higher pitched stuff than Master..I mean, compare "Battery" and its gruff, deep vocals to like, "trapped under Ice".... Kill em' all is a bit too speed-metal for me as well, but again--a great album none the less. those two albums definitely show Mustaine's hand in there...

Great story--I've been treated poorly by salespeople as well, but the best is my dad. He's a retired golf nut with more money and toys than he knows what to do with. He dresses in jeans and old sweatshirts and drives for his daily car a Hyndai Sonata with like , 12 billion miles on it. he has a bad haircut too, so he looks none too professional. He, however has made quite a bit in the Market, and has worked as a blacksmith for the last 40 years or so, makeing around 100-120 dollars an hour. He walked onto a BMW/Porche/MINI lot, and started browsing around....he then began asking very pointed questions, as he was considering buying my mother a porche or a mini or something for kicks, especially since she was in Ireland at the time, and it would have been a great surprise... the young slick sales person, completely blew him off, motioning to him with his hands where the cars were, and the information was clearly printed on the stickers. My dad-right there, decided to not buy ANYTHING from this dealer. The funny part--he has back home in his workshop a 1929 Mercedes Benz, a 1965 Mustang, a Model T, and the last car he bought my mother for kicks, a 1972 MG convertible (show condition, red) had that salesguy been a bit nicer, my dad would have made a major purchase, that day-in cash (he hates financeing)...and probably would have gone back to get a Jag or porsche... NEVER EVER JUDGE BY CLOTHES--especially if they are a little older!! that salesguy failed sales 101!

---------------- On 4/26/2004 5:56:22 PM Joe Shmoe wrote: Well, I somewhat agree and dis-agree with RFINCO. To say that Metallica sold out and is exploiting their fans is a little harsh. To quote Jason Newstead on the whole sell out issue "yea ,we sell out.... every show every night!" I am still a fan and I don't feel that neither is true. I do agree however that Lars's ego is getting way out of hand. Part of the problems they have had internally is why Jason left. Lars and James were being too controlling and were on some kind of power trip. Oh, and on the whole capitalist thing... Look at what Gene Simmons is doing with KISS! Whens the last time they put out a new album that wasn't a greatest hits package....lol I mean how many times can you release a greatest hits cd? Instead he's marketing KISS toilet paper, dolls, chip&dip bowls...you name it... that's capitalism, and that sucks! ---------------- I never said that others weren't part of the whole capitalist regime, and yes--KISS is guilty of this in spades! BUT!! Kiss never sued their own fans for haveing bootlegs and such. Metallica became in their age EVERYTHING they despised about the industry when they first started and did things "their way". Honestly, they need to hang it up--their new work is VERY weak, James can't hit the notes anymore, Lars is off time most of the sets...They peaked with the "black" album, which was really not that good anyway, in compairision to say MASTER OF PUPPETS or AND JUSTICE... I also knew someone was going to use that tired quote from Jason about "selling out", but the truth of it is that they did, they forgot what they were playing for in the first place. I'm not saying that musicians shouldn't make money, or anything like that, but music is essentially, and a pro level a type of job, and I don't think Metallica is performing to the best of their abbilities. What they give out isn't half as good as what they use to produce. Everyone else in the country gets laid off when this phenomena happens, but...not metallica. I use to be a fan, I've seen them about 6 times now live, and each time they lost more and more energy in the set. I think their old work is absolutely spectacular, and to some degree untouchable, but their new stuff seems formulaic and trite. I have no problem with people likeing them, because-to each their own. I have problem with people giving them this massive recongnition about how they did it their way, and never gave in and all that hero, champ, playing for the love of playing, BS that is cast upon them, when they were the primary force behind going after their own fans legally, something that "young" metallica would have definately never done. I think they are too wrapped up in being rock stars, and not enough in being musicians.

---------------- On 4/25/2004 8:12:52 PM LOADEDTUNES wrote: Read the article in this months addition of " Guitar World " about this summers release of " Some kind of monster " . I for one will not miss this one. Metallica is the " King " of metal , no doubt about it . This movie is a look inside the lives of james hetfield and lars ulrich along with the other band members. I for one have always admired the go f@ck yourself attitude this band has protrayed to the recording industry and media in general. This film is a open look at the Good " very bad " and " extremly ugly " life of this icon called METALLICA . I for one can hardly wait to see this film . ---------------- At one time Metallica might have represented that "metal" spirit, but now...they do everything in their power to exploit their fans, develop for record labels, and squeeze every last dime from anyone that has anything to do with them. They are not musicians anymore they are capitialists in every sense of the word. the very idea that they represent freedom and musical roots makes me gag. they are the very definition of the term "sell out", in the music world. The majority of that is do to the ageing meglomaniac on the drums AKA Lars. There was a time when metalica was king, but now...they're the jester, and their new horrible music shows this. What kind of band goes after its own fans??? and this movie thats coming out....well, one more way to squeeze a dollar from someones hand. If they still cared about the music anymore, I'd give them more credit, but they've shown time and time again as of late that only thing they respect is money. I apologize for my tone here, but metalica has lost all of the things that made them great and a band that did it "their way". They have sold out to the highest bidder, and to say that they represent musical spirit at this point in their career is an insult to music in general.

---------------- On 4/24/2004 3:24:35 PM kenratboy wrote: I won't even mention the prices they wanted (new retail), but I talked them down 70% before, and can try again, and don't give a $*&^ if they don't want to sell them, as I will gladly walk away. They have a Carver TFM-35x and a TFM-15, both in good condition with a few blemishes, but they looked solid. Any idea what a good lowball price would be? I looked on audioreview.com and $150 looks to be a good price for the 15, and maybe $250 for the 35. Any other suggestions? ---------------- I sold my TFM 35x on ebay about 2 months ago for 370.00 US. Mine worked completely, but the analog dial light burned out and it had a few scratches on the top. I was completely honest in my EBAY description, and I got very good bids because of this. I also agreed to take the unit back if they had troubles with it. if you don't want or need them, don't buy them--pawn shops are a risky proposition. calculate what it will cost to fix if it doesn't work into the price-if its still a deal, then go for it, if not--seek your fortune elsewhere... the best pawn shops by the way are around or near military bases. these boys buy some great gear and then...sell it all later...you can get some great buys at some of these places...just...don't be sad when it doesn't work....cause it does happen.

My speakers can be TRI-wired due to the built in subs, and there are 3 sets of binding posts and LFE jacks on the back of them, as well as gold "jumpers" in case one only wants to use 1 cable instead of 2 or three.. I notice a difference when I use the LFE jacks and the sub outputs on my Receiver, but when I did some quick experiments on the bi-wireing for mids and highs, I really just came up with more cables--sonically, it didn't seem to make a difference, but that may be due to the fact that the bass frequencies are already routed to the LFE and not through the speaker wires...I never tried bi/tri wireing useing only the speaker cables and not the LFE outputs... I've actually wondered about this whole "bi-wireing" thing for a while now...thanks for this post! I'm curious as to other views out there on bi wireing.... Bi-amping obviously makes sense, but bi-wiring...? my question is this: 2 sets of wire running from the same amp would be sending the same current through 2 wires, instead of one, how does this make a difference in a speaker that doesn't have more than 1 set of binding posts? more than 1 set of binding posts could make sense cause there could be some sort of isolation of certain frequencies with the way the Mids are designed, vs. the Highs, and in turn it is the speaker's design that allows for said isolation---but if there is only one set of posts, what difference does it make, and how can it make a difference with only one way into the speaker? I mean you could have 40 wires going into the speaker but they still all connect at one point....