chops

driver Distortion .component's... iare not Additive Sometimes I have absolutely no clue what you're saying... If you're implying that the distorsion from both drivers don't add up to louder distorsion than from a single driver, then how is that so? Distorsion is sound too. If there are two sources of distorsion, that distorsion has to be louder from both drivers combined than just from a single driver. And if that distorsion is louder, then wouldn't be measured as "more" distorsion? ********** To get back to the original question that started this thread "to think outside the box" and "what's next on the horizon?", I think that might be a little bit on the impossible side when confined to the interior of a home. To do something like that, you would still need a fairly large driver for the bass section, you would need very large 360* horn lenses for the bass and topend, and enough space between the surrounding walls and large speaker arrays to get anything good out of them. When I had my Maggies and Definitive Technologies, and even when I used to set up Maggies, Quad and Martin Logan and any other kind of bipole/dipole loudspeakers in a client's house, they always sounded best when placed a few feet (at least) in from the side and back walls. A speaker design like that needs room to breath, and being that a 360* fullrange horn system would be the size of a small house, it would be highly impracticle for home use.

"So here are Your instructions , very easy to handle : 1st step : Take Your digital camera in Your hand . 2nd step : Place Your girl directly beneath or on top or before Your Klipsch Speakers . 3rd step : Push the button on Your camera . 4th step : Upload Your pics . 5th step : Post It now !" Sarcasm sucks you know.

I'm almost affraid to get involved in this thread, but I'm going to take a jab at it anyway... Just keep in mind, I'm pretty good with this kind of stuff, but I just don't know all of the technical jargon that some of you do. LOL [] As far as the quality of low-end bass of any of these horns are concerned (fat, light, loose, smeared, etc, etc...), I have not seen mentioned anywhere anything about the kinds of amplification being used when these assessments were made. To my understanding, not only is it a matter of the amp being SS or tube, but the quality of the power supply, the topology, the components, the power output, etc, etc used to make up said amplifier. All of these key factors plus others in and of themselves also play a roll on how bass sounds. All amplifiers lean either towards fat or lean sounding, slow and sloppy or fast and tight sounding, so that too has to be factored into what you are hearing coming from your Khorn, Jub, LS bass bins. One amp can make a speaker sound lean whereas another amp can make that same speaker sound fat. In the ideal world, the electronics should add nothing to the sound, then we would only be limited to the limits of the loudspeaker itself (and of course the room they are in). But even then, you still have to factor in personal taste. Fat and sloppy bass to me may sound natural and detailed to someone else, and lean and thin bass to you may sound open and airy to the next person. It's a never-ending battle. ********** Now as far as the limited upper-range of the Khorn, if I understand correctly, it is NOT a function of the driver, but of the horn itself. So no matter what driver you install in a "stock" Khorn, you're still going to be faced with an acoustic rolloff of around 400Hz or so no matter what, right? If that's the case, then I would only imagine that modifications would have to be made to the original Khorn, or an entirely new design would have to be born (a.k.a. - the Jub and DM's V2). ********** The discussion of 12" vs 15" vs 18", single, dual, whatever, there are pros and cons there as well. I think the same rules still apply to those particular size drivers no matter how many are being used of each, it's just that those rules come into play at much higher power and SPL levels than they would with a single driver. IOW, if you have 1% THD from a single 12" driver at Xmax, then you will have 2% THD from dual 12" drivers at Xmax. Granted this would be reached at double the power and SPL output. Correct me if I'm wrong with this, but if you're running dual drivers and you reach Xmax again, then wouldn't you be hearing double the amount of distortion because you are now hearing twice the amount of distortion due to running dual drivers?! Of course, all of this is a moot point when considering say 100dB with a single driver vs 100dB with dual drivers of same make and model. And once you get into the discussion of 2x12" vs 1x15" or 2x15" vs 1x18", there are some things to consider there as well... If you look at any decent brand and model driver, say the Eminence Definimax series, they make them in 12", 15" and 18". If you look at their specs, they have nearly identical motor structures (109oz magnet, 4" VC, 8 ohms). However, their Re, Le, Pe and SPL change slightly due to the added mass and size of the cones(I assume). Also, the Xmax changes slightly between models, not due to limitations of the spider, but because of the size limitations of the cloth surrounds between the edge of the cone and basket. If you look at all three drivers on PartsExpress's site, you can clearly see that there is physically more space between the edge of the cone and basket on the 15" driver compared to the other two drivers, allowing the surround to be slightly larger, hence why the 15" has the most Xmax of the bunch. So getting back to my original point about the motor structures, wouldn't you think that running dual 12's would out-perform a single 15", NOT only because of the 28% increase of surface area, but simply because of the 100% increase in motor strength?! ********** The way I see it, a bass horn is similar to a bandpass subwoofer enclosure; it has freq range limitations on both ends of the spectrum due to size issues. If you increase horn length/size, you extend deeper, but lose more topend. If you decrease length/size, you lose bass extension but gain topend. But I guess that also isn't totally correct either considering what kind of horn you design, unless it's a folded horn. Also, (me assuming things again), should it not matter what type, size or quanity of driver used that would determine the freq range of a given horn? Isn't it totally up to the length/size of the horn that determines the freq range? Kind of like a governor on an engine, it doesn't matter is the engine has 100hp or 350hp, if it's governed to 65mph, it's ONLY going to do 65mph no matter what. Like Dr Who says, "It's all about compromise". If you want lower bass extension, you have to design a physically larger folded horn, and if you want better topend extension, you need to design a somewhat smaller horn, or go with a completely different horn design altogether. Maybe a bass reflex/horn hybrid, something like the Altec A7 which will get you the topend you want along with decent bass extension, however with a larger footprint. It has been around nearly as long as the Khorn (early 1950's) and every bit as successful, so they must be doing something right. Anyway, that's my take on it. []

Hi Erik... long time! [] I was going to say something within those lines as you have already mentioned. I was also thinking that maybe there might be some caps that are out of spec or possibly dirty RCA connections. I'd be inclined to go through the entire unit with some DeoxIT before replacing parts left and right. It just may very well be oxidized contact surfaces which run wild with older gear.

For one thing, if done correctly, passive radiators do NOT "flutter". I beg to differ, you can get an SVS PB10-NSD for $429 that has a 10" driver and has absolutely no problems at all hitting 18Hz loudly and cleanly. I know, I have one in the other room and it does just fine at high volumes. It easily shakes the walls. If you desire a little more output and still reach down to 18Hz, then go with the SVS PB12-NSD for $599. It has a 12" driver. If you desire a lot more output and loud clean bass down to about 15Hz and even reach to 12Hz with honors (depending on room and placement), go with the PB12-NSD/2 for $899. This is the upgraded version of the PB12-ISD/2 I used to have and is guaranteed to smash your skull in or knock your house off of its foundation. And let me just say, do NOT underestimate these subs! Just because they have less power than most, they have larger enclosures which compensate and get you to that low bass without thousands of watts and heavy equalization. BTW, the PB10-NSD will run circles around your current sub all day, not to mention what the 12" version can do!

OK The Dukester wins the power war! Not that I care, but how do you figure when I have 1000W for bass and 115W for mids?

And my system... Crown XTi-1000 - 1000W to DIY 2x15" Push/Pull sub - 50Hz and below. Technics SU-8089 integrated - 115W to the Klipsch K-33 woofers and Cornwall cabinet - 50Hz to 600Hz. Crown D-75A - 30W to the Altec 902-8B/511B horn - 600Hz to 20kHz. At full tilt the XTi-1000 will sometimes flicker the -10dB Signal LEDs (maybe a few hundred watts??), the Technics amp will peak between 5-7 watts, and the Signal LEDs on the D-75A will stay on almost constant. I have seen the "Clip" LEDs light up once or twice on the XTi amp, so I know I have at least put nearly full power into the sub, I'm sure the meter on the Technics isn't very accurate so give it a watt or two in either direction. And I highly doubt I have even put a full watt into the 902s. In the end, it all really depends on your listening habbits. If you listen at "normal" levels, then 30 watts or less may be all you need on the K-33s. The top end will only require a fraction of that.

This is true! The A-7's are very highly regarded speakers. So much so that they are back in production after quite a few years of nothingness. That's gotta say something for them! Anyway, I don't know if you've heard of this other site yet, but over on the Altec User Board ( http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=3729 ), there are a bunch of nuts on there ( just like this site) that know everything there is to know about Altecs and all of the various tweaks to get the most out of any Altec model. Stop on by there and see what they have to say. One of two things will happen, either you'll modify your A-7's to some degree or you'll end up with some kind of "Frankenspeaker" involving Altec and Klipsch or a complete DIY setup, hopefully still using the 511B/808-8A combo. Also, if those 808's of yours still have the original diaphrams in them, you may want to consider replacing them with fresh new ones. That will most likely regain most of that "sparkle" back into the sound. (this is what I have to do with my 902-8B drivers sometime soon).

I'm not sure how the LS network differs from the CW network, but in order for me to run my 902-8B's on those particular networks, I had to move from the stock tap #3 to tap #2 to aquire the proper attenuation. Tap #3 is on the top left corner of the pic and tap #2 is on the bottom right...

Did I hear my name mentioned?! LOL Yes, I went the route of the 511B/902-8B combo on top of my Corns. Sounds mighty fine, too! However, I have to say, the biggest improvement was moving to active filtering and biamping. One more thing, I finally got around to buying and installing a near mint 902-8T driver for my center channel from Todd White over on the Altec User Board. Obviously, this driver hasn't seen the abuse like my current drivers apparently have in the past since it has no problems reaching up to nearly 20kHz and have not developed the "work-hardened" diaphrams of my 8B's. So when I get around to swapping out the old and tired diaphrams in my 8B's, I'll most likely be selling my DEQ-1024.

I didn't want to go drilling into my 511B's (aluminum), so I just drilled 2 holes in the adapter (plastic) that matched up to the 511, and attached it with only 2 bolts. That's plenty of support for the K55 drivers. Just make sure to not over tighten the bolts or you'll distort the mounting surface of the adapter. Just my 2 cents.

No link to the drivers, but to the source... http://forums.klipsch.com/user/Profile.aspx?UserID=9312 BTW, Bob sells them on eBay as well, but I'd check directly with him first before resorting to the eBay route.

Yeah, in that case I'd try a vented enclosure, either with the Altec 15" driver or one of Bob Crite's (BEC) Klipsch clone drivers (CT1526) and keep that 511B/808 combo. BTW, you can see the route I took in the adventure of better sound here... [] http://chops.tzo.com/klipsch.htm

From what others have said, including George Roland, the 511B horn is much smoother and cleaner sounding at all volumes. The driver George is using is the Klipsch K-55V driver with a Selenium adapter to mate the screw-on driver to the bolt-on flange. I have done the same with my Cornwalls, except that I took it a few steps further and UPGRADED to the Altec 902-8B drivers, electronic crossover and bi-amped, resulting in a major improvement, especially over the stock Cornwall's K-600 horn.

Yes, the 902-8B is the correct driver of choice, yes 106dB @ 1W/1M with 511B is correct, yes, I think that most all 902 drivers come with the loading caps installed, there is no adapter needed to mount the 902 to the 511B horn. If I had to choose between the KHorn bin and Jub bin, I'd go with the Jub, and I will tell you why. Since the Jub bass bin will get you a little added HF output from the woofer(s), you can cross the 902 drivers higher. As others have mentioned here in other threads and on the Altec User's board, the more you ask the driver to produce lower midrange, the faster it seems to roll off the top end. I'm not exactly sure why or how it does this, but it's true as I have tried many crossover points via my Rane AC-22B. From a range between 400-800Hz, I have found that 600Hz (measured roughly 625Hz through TrueRTA) provided the best possibly midrange sound and from 600Hz on up, the HF output seemed to level off with no real added output above the 600Hz point. Also, I know people cross the 902/511B rather low. I've read somewhere as low as 365Hz, 2nd order. From playing around with x-over freqs, it sounds to me that the 902 fails to load the 511B horn properly below 500Hz (500Hz being the limit) and the lower midrange begins sounding a little odd. TrueRTA showed some pretty bad jagginess when crossed below 500Hz, and worse the lower I went. However, things seemed to smooth out at 600Hz. And as for beaminess, I don't hear it at all. Again, it might have something to do with my room and layout, but HF dispersion from side to side seems to be pretty uniform throughout the room. The thing I have noticed about beaming is that these horns don't like to disperse HF energy vertically. I have the horns tilted down to ear level, so when I'm seated in the sweet spot everything sounds fine, but if I stand up, the HF tends to roll off a little. Nothing drastic mind you, but clealy noticable. The time delay is another one that I would rather be able to adjust on the fly. I never knew it before, but the time alighnment changes with the crossover frequency, so once you figure out the distance between the woofer and 902, you still have to adjust for whatever x-over freq you choose. Even then, there's no set rule as to what will be correct, only guidelines to get you in the ballpark. I had to fine-tune with TrueRTA and lastly/mostly by ear. And you'll know when you get the time delay just right as everything (voicing, imaging, soundstage) will just snap right into place. I too wouldn't mind going for full-fledged VOTTs, but if space is a concern and you think the KHorns are large, take a look at the A7 bass horns sometime. They're not exactly small. If I had a pair in my room, they would overlap my 9' screen by about 6" on either side, and that's with the cabinets up against the side walls where the CWs are now.

IIRC, the 902-8B is rated for 15W while the 902-8T is rated for 30W. Even as loud as I play my system from time to time, and at how little the "Signal" LEDs light up on my Crown amp powering the 902s, I highly doubt they're seeing 1 full watt, probably 3/4 of a watt at most.

I find this rather interesting. You feel that the K55/902 drivers sound very similar to eachother on the 511B horn. I on the other hand heard a vast improvement switching over to the 902s. Sure, the K55s sounded much better on the 511B horns then they ever could on the K-600 or Pyle Pro horn (which is supposed to sound like the K-400 horn), but the K55/511B combo in no way compares to the sound quality of the 902/511B combo... at least not in my system and to my ears. The K55s just have a harshness to them that makes the midrange very hard and painful to listen to at high volumes. And even at lower volumes, they tend to have a hint of that hollow, honky tone to them. Not very pleasing at all, and definately not natural sounding. The 902/511B combo seems to do just about everything correctly. There's certainly more detail to be had, the extended HF range is a big plus (for 2-way operation only), they're cleaner, smoother and more open, they have never gotten harsh or hard sounding when pushed to high volumes. However, to achieve high volumes means only giving them about 1 very clean strong watt of power. Now I know that the harshness mainly comes from having a small 1" throat, but I have yet to hear any of that come from the 902/511B combo. Maybe it's the way the 902 loads the horn, maybe it's because the 902 driver was designed to work optimumly with the 511B horn, I don't know. The fact that I'm now bi-amping this setup with the Rane x-over, powering the horns with the ultra-clean Crown D-75A, and using the Behringer DEQ-1024 to help on the topend a bit, and tame just a very slight bit of midrange between 1kHz - 2kHz, the entire system measures flat as a ruler. Everything has a very natural, open, airy sound to it. Imaging and soundstaging I find simply amazing due the sheer large size of these speakers in my somewhat small room. Anyway, that's my view on it. The only thing I regret is not finding out about all of this earlier, so I wouldn't have had all of this time and money wasted on other speakers over the years. Oh well. The only thing left to do now is build custom bass bins and buy 2 new 15" drivers, most likely the new cast aluminum basket ones from Bob. Or maybe 4 new ones, I haven't completely decided yet, not for more low end, but more efficiency. Not that I really even need that either, but it would be nice just for the heck of it. As it is now, the Technics amp only read a MAX of about 7 watts to the K-33E woofers while blasting the heck out of the system (about a steady 105dB in the sweet spot 13' away). Yeah, I'm having a fun time with my system!

As a side note, I have now removed the passive networks and am now using a Rane active crossover and bi-amping the Cornwall cabinets and 511B/902 topend. This is the ultimate tweak that can be done using this kind of combo. The Technics amp is powering the K-33E woofers while the small Crown amp is powering the Altecs. And here's a couple shots of the diaphrams... Also, if you can, try to find a pair of the 902s with the "Tangerine" phase plugs as these are desired ones. I believe that most of them are anyway. This is a pic when I had the diaphrams out (obviously), and I was cleaning out the magnetic gap with a piece of masking tape (sticky side out) to pick up any dust/debris that might be in there.

The K55-V drivers were originally designed for PA use. And when I say PA, I mean as in this... They were never intended for reproducing music, at least not in a good way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Altec 902 drivers (as with all of their drivers) were designed for sound reproduction in the recording/mastering studio, pro-audio, live sound and movie theaters, hence they were designed with sound quality in mind. To use a pair of 902-8B drivers, you will have to use a different tap on the autoformer to get the desired output. However, if you can find a pair of 902-16B drivers, then you wouldn't have to modify anything. Just mount them to the 511B horns and let'em rip! Also, if you do get the 902-8B drivers, you can always buy new 16ohm diaphrams for them if you don't want to modify the networks. You can replace the diaphrams yourself. It's very very easy to do. In fact, most Altec compression drivers were designed to be easily serviced in the field without special tools or any trouble. Whether your speakers be Khorns, Scalas, Cornwalls, whatever, the 902 drivers WILL make a big improvement over the honky K55-V drivers. And yes, I have a good idea of what I'm talking about since I did exactly what the two of you are wanting to do... Look familiar?.. BTW, those are modified Type B Cornwall networks.

The best tweak for those 511B horns would be to get rid of the K-55V drivers and getting a pair of Altec 902 drivers.

Umm.... He said "Joan Osbourne" and "nailing it" in the same post! LOL [][6]

Thanks! Yeah, hitting those low notes can do some major rumbling, especially when I pipe it in through my stereo. []

Obviously, going from an old and outdated passive 1st order design to an up to date active 4th order design is going to make a difference. That's a GIVEN. What YOU were referring to was noise, hash, distorsion, whatever injected into the signal. You said it youself a while back when you bitched about the "op-amp sound". Now you're telling me you're going to deny that?! When you said "op-amp sound", you were referring to noise, etc, etc..., NOT sharper crossover slopes and different crossover frequencies, which will of course alter the sound. I find myself having to re-explain myself to you numerous times over the same things, and quite frankly, it's getting rather boring! Everybody seems to praise you and for the life of me, I'm trying to figure out why. Everytime I get stuck yacking to you, I feel more and more like I'm talking to a bumbling hill-billy. The reason YOU get the "Neanderthal treatment" is because of your outlandish, RUDE, one-worded and arrogant remarks that are totally uncalled for. But because the new guy (me) steps up to you, then I'm suddenly the local @$$hole. There's so much favoritism going on in this forum, and all the old-timers on here get away with murder that it's impossible for anyone to carry on a decent conversation and/or thread without someone like YOU, Duke Spinner and johnyholiday (by who the way makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever on anything he writes - lay off the weed already!) that it completely sucks coming on here. And ask me if I care if anyone replies to me or this thread. In case you haven't noticed, I haven't been on here much lately in the last few weeks anyway. Everytime I am, I just get ripped to shreds by idiots anyway, so why bother?! I have much better things to do then waste away on this forum.

Sure they do, when measured with analyzers and occiliscopes, but not necessarily noticable by ear, unless you're using absolute junk equipment. And don't even bother starting crap about Behringer products. I've heard it all, and I don't give a rats arse what anyone has to say about them. "It sure doesn't take much for you to come unglued." Then don't be so stinking arrogant with your laim responses! If you don't like it, then don't post in my threads.

Yes, you are rather full of "that", aren't you? Who the hell are you to tell me what I do and don't hear on my own damn system?! Oh, I forgot... You have calibration mics and occiliscopes for ears. Stupid me.