edwinr

Don't give up on 2 channel so easily. I don't know whether you guys have noticed but there is a small but discernable move by certain manufacturers (including a very well known former cassette designer and a well known U.S. subwoofer manufacturer- although not quite in the Klipsch class)in providing 5.1 like surround sound from only 1 or 2 speakers. This technology utilises the very latest in digital acoustic research. I would imagine that 2 channel audio is only going to benefit from such developments as our understanding of the 'surround' sound concept improves. I thought that the introduction of the 'Q' sound as featured in Madonna's greatest hits collection was a great idea. It showed plenty of potential. I can imagine that many spouses may accept the introduction of the magnificent Klipschorn into a living room, but as soon as you try and introduce the centre, surrounds and the old .1 of the equation, conflict starts - and rightly so in many cases. I've been there and done that before I came to my senses. I think current 5.1 thinking is a bit archaic. Just throw as many speakers as you can and as many DSP configurations as you can think of into the pot and see what comes out. Unfortunately in many cases we are left with a homogenous audio mess. The 5.1 channel/multi music channel formats are not helped by many audio engineers who think, "...great a new toy to play with..." without thinking through the consequences of messing with the natural soundstage. It's funny but while I was going through the stress of making sense of my whole 5.1 experience, my wife said; "...for goodness sake Edwin, what are you doing? You've only got two ears". Hey, she was right.

Smilin, I'm new to this forum and you guys, but I know what you are going through. My mum passed away 2 years ago. The same s**t. Breast cancer, then to the bones and liver. She went quickly and there is still a gulf or chasm in our lives. Like all mum's, the only thing she was worried about was us. I'm the eldest of twelve in our family and all she could think about was leaving us. She kept saying "you poor dears....". There are Saints, police, priests, heros, idols and icons - then at the top of the heap are our mums. Just remember, no matter where your mum is, there will always be a little bit of her in you and your family. You just have to close yuour eyes for a second and she's there. You just have to think of something nice, and she's there. May God bless your MUM.

...and speaking of room acoustics, I would imagine that any room that size with Khorn's in the corners, and the lucky victim sitting at the triangle listening apex, there would be no need for a centre or surrounds for home theatre. It would have to be audio nirvana. You would be part of the movie, not merely an observer! By the way I'm a big 2 channel home theatre fan. I'm always moving my speakers around aiming to reproduce the so called 5.1 experience with 2 speakers. I tried 5.1 (with all Klipsch gear) a couple of years ago and I wasn't impressed. I kept the speakers - great stuff but got rid of the rest.

Thanks for the feedback. I found a review of the Audio Note Oto SE, while the manufacturer claims 10 watts, in actuality it tested out to around 4.5 watts before distortion set in. It would be nice in a smaller room, but I think my room is too big. I'm going to audition the Audio Research VSi55.

Whilst my initial reaction to the extra care needed for the Khorn placement over the Belle was not positive, I am gaining more knowledge and confidence that the Khorn is the way to go. I have since spoken to the original H-Fi dealer who bagged the Heritage series as p.a. speakers. He admitted he owned La Scala's for years. His p.a. comments were directed toward the La Scala and not the Khorn's. He did say everyone should a pair of La Scala's sometime in their life!!!! This dealer is now assisting me in selecting a suitable amp to go with horn's I select. He has suggested a used Cary Rocket 88 with matching pre-amp as one option - good power and lots of low end punch (this amp belongs to the store technician). Another option is a brand new Audio Note Oto SE, EL84 tubes, 10 watts class A, single ended operation, or the Audio Research VSi55 integrated. All around the same price give or take a few hundred dollars. The dealer suggests the Audio Note would be the best choice - smooth, atmospheric, plenty of power for horns. I also got the tape measure out and I think I can slot the Khorns in without too much trouble. I like the idea of lining the wall corners with a fibreboard over the brick. This would provide a positive seal without the trouble of plastering. In relation to the Khorn's mid range horn, I noticed on Consistent's post pictures of the rear of his new Khorn's, it seems to be longer than the mid range horn used in the La Scala/Belle. Is this correct?

Yes it makes more sense to switch on and off as you please, as I have always done. I have friends who leave their gear switched on all the time (or so they tell me - although none run 300B's). I had a thought about the debate about tube rolling. I think ultimate tube sound is more influenced by transformer limitations rather than the actual choice of tube or whether PP or SET (not that I have much SET experince). If transformer design and quality is top notch only then would the selected tubes be able to show their full potential. My amplifier is definitely low to middling in quality (Jolida 202b) and any tube rolling I may do would be more for fun than a serious attempt to improve sound quality.

I was blown away recently by a demo of just a 2 channel La Scala setup. That demo must have been something else. I wonder why Klipsch have not started offering a dedicated centre channel Heritage speaker option - not quite as imposing as the Belles. At the moment the only option is to buy single speakers from private sellers willing to split pairs. Perhaps offering a Heritage series centre similar in configuration to the older C7 but obviously larger. Klipsch devotees are spoilt for choice when it comes to the rears.

How about a Jolida 102. EL84 tubes. Cheap to run. Could you get a used one in the States for $300? Also backed by U.S. assembly therefore easy to fix if something goes wrong. An early Antique Sound Labs integrated would be a good bet as well.

Thanks for the pictures. That's the first time I have seen the Khorn's from the rear. Now I understand the need to back them securely into a corner. It's given me food for thought in my choice between Belles and Khorn's. I find your choice of Cyrus electronics interesting. I thought they tended to be on the lean side of neutral - but obviously this would be heavily influenced by room acoustics.

Yes this has turned into a debate, albeit an interesting one. ...and I am reminded of the time I worked for a radio station in New Zealand back in the late 1970's. I was told that most of our studio and transmitter amplifiers were tube based. On a number of occasions we had power failures for various reasons and being a 'Radio Cadet' I assisted the technician in replacing various tubes that had failed. I was told me that the tubes had a lifespan of several years and they were left on all the time. It was only when these devices were switched on and off frequently or were subject to power anomalies, did they fail. I wonder if we kept our amplifiers on all the time would it significantly increase the suggested 2-3000 hours of quality sound manufacturers usually suggest as the maximum lifespan? I can see some merit to the argument that our ears are just getting used to a sound that we hear - it becomes familiar therefore it becomes correct. It's like when I sing in the shower. My ears have adjusted to the sound and I think it's good - when I hear someone else sing I think they can't hold a note as good as me. Perhaps that hour warmup I regularly use is merely my ears adjusting to the sound. I'd like to think not.

The green tinge of my skin is not really jealousy. It's just something I've eaten. You could make me feel better though by posting a picture of your new Khorn's if you get the chance.

Okay, you guy's have convinced me, I'm going solid state.

...and I agree about warmimg up the tubes for an hour before serious listening. The difference between switch on and an hour is like chalk and cheese sonically.

I've run tubed amps for over 10 years sourced from Anthem, Copland and currently Jolida. Usually I burn my tubes in for 80 to 100 hours continuously playing low level music - radio etc with some serious listening during this time to see how they're going. Depending on the amplifier I check bias at the end of the burn in and then every 500 hours after that. I don't think your method of burning in is any better or worse than mine - just that I reach optimum tube performance sooner. I run matched pairs of Sovtek EL34's - a minor upgrade from the standard Jolida tubes (I think) and I anticipate about 3000 hours from them. So 100 hours burn in doesn't significantly effect the lifespan. Tube rolling (swapping stock tubes for different or better tubes) sounds like fun. If the new tubes sound better to you then they are the ones to go for. But to be frank I haven't really got into it.

The Denon will work fine with the RF7's at higher listening levels, it's only at lower listening levels (late night listening for example) the you will find solid state amps like the Denon lack transparency and finess - usually due to switching distortion prevelant in lower cost class AB designs. Now if you didn't want to go tube, I agree with the suggestion of upgrading to 'pure class A' amplification. The Sugden 21A is an absolutely superb amplifier for solid state and has plenty of upgrade options. You can add on another Sugden power amplifier and also add a phono board. It does run very hot though.

Wow....If I hired a canoe and started paddling fast from Aus, would I get a big discount for effort?

---------------- On 6/11/2004 5:48:52 AM edster00 wrote: Ordinarily I would agree with you, edwinr, but in the case of the Sony product I mentioned the unit was designed and buit by Sony's audio engineers, not their video engineers. It does an incredible job with SACDs as well as redbook CDs. ---------------- Yes you are right in the case of the ES series. The Sony QS series is not as audio orientated far as I'm aware. I've just read a review of the new Sony SCD-XA9000ES in HI FI News. It looks good. Apparently Sony and Marantz are the only manufacturers that use true 1 bit converter DAC'S. Subsequent DVD-A and universal players from other manufacturers use 3-5 bit 'Delta Sigma' converters which apparently offer compatability with SACD but is ultimately not quite what Sony intended.

I own the KLF10's driven by a Jolida 202a tube amp. I like these speakers and I think they compare favourably with the latest Reference series and are certainly an improvement on the KG5.5's which I used to own. However in hindsight I should have purchased the KLF20's. The 20's during the initial audition with the 10's had more mid range presence and an overall smoother sound. The reason I purchased the 10's instead was that they were in stock in the veneer I wanted and I saved some money over the 20's.

You could consider the Sony SCD-XB790 SACD player. A new product the HI-FI World (UK) said was "...creamy smooth and laid back...atmospheric...". UK price is 249 pounds - I don't know what that is in real money. I would avoid the combination Sony DVD/SACD option as audio seems to take a back seat when you throw in DVD and SACD into the same case.

Thanks for the feedback. It seems that the move to the holy grail (the Khorn) requires a greater level of commitment than contemplating the move to the La Scala or Belle. Klipsch themselves say that both the La Scala and Belle offer nearly 90% of the Khorn sound - but in a more compact package and affordable price. The ability to place La Scala and Belle elsewhere in the room certainly is attractive. In the heat of the moment it's easy to get caught up at the prospect of reaching audio heaven - maybe I should take a couple steps to my ultimate system via the Belle's. I can wait for some used Khorn's to come on the market in the meantime. I can see a Belle 2 channel setup backed up by a suitable sub that can be switched in and out as required is probably the best option at the moment. To Consistent; what veneer option did you choose for your Khorn's?

Is it also possible that certain non classical music such as rock/pop is recorded with much more compression than most classical music. Any increase in amplitude with such high energy music may interact with room acoustics causing the unpleasant sound you are experiencing with non classics. This may also sound like an amplifier clipping if the music is played too loudly. Have you tried acoustical damping in you room? Next step of course is equipment upgrade...that's where the real fun starts.

Please refer to my previous post regarding 'upgrade to Belle'. During recent chat with my Klipschman here in Australia, we had an interesting discussion about considering Klipschorn's instead of Belle's. The price difference in Australia is less than $3,000! His argument is 1. ultimate sound; 2. unlikely to need expensive subwoofers even for my 2 channel home theatre thereby saving $$$; 3. a life long investment - in other words get out of the upgrade cycle before I even start; 4. He needs to pay for his visit to the new Klipsch Headquarters in September! Now he made an interesting comment about Klipschorn placement in my room of 6 metres by 5.5 meters. He suggests that while corner placement is ideal, it is not absolutely essential. The Khorn was primarily designed for corner placement because of the size of the beast while also taking advantage of corner bass reinforcement. You could still enjoy Khorn benefits without corner placement. Further that if corner placement is possible on the long wall (as it may well be in my room), sealing the Khorn via gaskets into the corner is more a tweak rather than an essential. My question is, given the advice I have been given, do I really need to be that particular about Khorn placement, given other comments in this forum. I am happy, if I purchase Khorns, to board up or move a sliding glass door (which opens to the outside) in one of the corners to obtain two solid corners. The interior walls are painted brick. But any further renovation such as plastering etc to obtain an airtight seal would make Khorn purchase over the Belles probably unlikely (according to she who must be obeyed).

Thanks for the advice. I have since listened to a pair of 10 year old la scala's belonging to a friend driven by solid state amplification. I am still in shock from the experience. I had no idea that any speaker could sound like that - I thought I was sitting in the front row of a live concert. Now I know what you guys are talking about when you mention dynamics. I have now started serious negotiations with the Klipsch man. I am also seriously considering how to raise the money to buy the belles brand new - perhaps if I sold the wife and a couple of the children I may be in a position to buy in the next few weeks! I will let you know. Kind regards....

---------------- On 6/6/2004 7:19:34 AM edwinr wrote: Hi, I'm new to this forum. I enjoy reading your posts. I currently own mahogany KLF10's, Jolida 202a tube integrated, Toshiba 900ee DVD player configured to 2 channel plus NEC vt540 projector and a Project T/table. The local Klipsch importer has brand new walnut belles available. However local hi-fi dealers are saying I will make a big mistake as the heritge sound is harsh and p.a. orientated. They have suggested instead upgrading to Theil 2.4's or Martin Logan Aeon's etc with matching amp's. I guess I like the dynamics of the KLF10 but they are a little harsh at times. Will the move to the belle's be a significant upgrade? Will the Jolida be okay with the belle's until I can upgrade to something like the Audio Research VSi55? ---------------- ---------------- On 6/6/2004 7:19:34 AM edwinr wrote: Hi, I'm new to this forum. I enjoy reading your posts. I currently own mahogany KLF10's, Jolida 202a tube integrated, Toshiba 900ee DVD player configured to 2 channel plus NEC vt540 projector and a Project T/table. The local Klipsch importer has brand new walnut belles available. However local hi-fi dealers are saying I will make a big mistake as the heritge sound is harsh and p.a. orientated. They have suggested instead upgrading to Theil 2.4's or Martin Logan Aeon's etc with matching amp's. I guess I like the dynamics of the KLF10 but they are a little harsh at times. Will the move to the belle's be a significant upgrade? Will the Jolida be okay with the belle's until I can upgrade to something like the Audio Research VSi55? ---------------- Thanks guys for your initial responses. My music/projector room is downstairs and is 6 metres by 5.5 metres in size. Double brick construction with carpet covered cement floor. Walls are painted brick affixed with numerous movie posters on polystyrene backing. Some curtaining around the windows. The screen and speakers are situated on the long wall with speakers about 4 metres apart and 400mm from the back wall (sorry about the metrics). Music tastes are Frank Sinatra, early Elvis, jazz, light classics and modern contempory pop. Costs? well are you guys sitting down? Try $17,000 for Klipschorns, $13,000 for Belles, $8,500 for La Scala's and surprisingly reasonable, $2,600 for Heresy 2's. Only last year the Klipschorn's were retailing for $20,000! But put that into perspectve the Theil CS 2.4's retail for $9,900 but you can deal and get them for $7,500. So I guess I will get a discount from the Belle retail price of maybe $3,000 or $4,000? The Audio Research VSi 55 retails for $7,000 but I've been quoted around $5,500 for cash. Goulburn is a town of 25,000 people, located midway between Sydney and Canberra. The Klipsch importer is located in Melbourne about 1100 kilometres away so I will need to get the Belle's delivered straight to my door.