SET12

By No Means does 2-Channel Gag me! I love and appreciate the creative inspiration that goes into all aspects of the Art (and appreciating the Art) of Music. If I had to equate it to something it may be how I feel about Pizza. If I am at home I ALWAYS prefer Pepperoni. If I am out and someone offers me a Hamburger and Mushroom slice, I can enjoy that equally as well. [] I didn't mean to hijack this thread and will respectfully step out. [au] Thats nice! I wish I could say the same but I can't[]

I am electrically inclined and am very familiar with 300B SETs I saw your Post on Audio Review of your amps they are gorgeous and I never knew that a Graphite Plate 300B is available WOW! I love the sound of it! The fact that you swapped the tube to the other channel and saw the same thing happen says that the tube is likely toast you may or may not be able to go to a music store and have the tube tested depending on what they use to test their tubes many older testers can easily test 300B's but I'd bet it is toast! I don't know if you have a simple multi-meter you can conduct some simple tests. But you should use caution! hopefully the amp has bleeder resistors on its caps so you would give it several minutes to discharge! and carefully remove the cover off take some DC voltage readings of the caps to see they are discharged There is a good chance that it is self biasing which case you'll see a large wattage 800 ohm or so resistor that is near the filament of the 300B you can measure to see if it was damaged you may also measure two smaller resistors 25-100 ohms but you may have a hum pot that actually is attached to the 800 ohm resistor via its center wiper this is important to check this as your bias will run away if it is damaged. It gets a little more complicated to go thru adjustable bias. but depending on its design if you have it, it is likely fine if you have one adjustment but if you have two the pot could be damaged. hopefully you have the non adjustable bias Next is your Output Iron the easist thing to do is check the DC resistance of it's primary it should match the other tranny or be very close to it if the tranny is damaged it will show a lower DC resistance or even be open! Basicly you have one good channel so you can do measurements from one channel to the other I think your 6SJ7's are likely fine So compare parts and let us know what tyou find if your incline to try! SET12

Well, tkdamerica I 'm not ofended at all really![] I will say I to am rarely in the multi-channel side of of this forum[] I'm glad you enjoy what you have! I'm sure 2-channel gags you as much as multi gags few of us and I guess with multi-channel format isn't an issue for you but that coming isn't it? I'll have to peek in and see how that goes![:^)] SET12[]

Yes, The wiring was rated for 30 amps I was using 20 amp breakers on them. I don't care for Isolation Transformers unless they are big like paralleling two 3kw's for a low output impedance! And even then I'm going to wonder about the dynamics because the pole only less than 100ft away has a 50kw transformer think of it's output impedance! The issue I'm concerned about is the lines phase! and not the noise but the lines actual power factor rate ( how inductive it is) which is why I like the Furman power factor corrector!

Gosh, what an unintelligent response. You forgot to tell us how much you've sunk into your electronic monstrosity. To design one of these is no simple undertaking for any designer with a gain of 2000, 36000 before the RIAA network and to keep it stable with low noise; My first phono took a couple of years of developement to beat out a very good sounding solid-state unit this particular unit took about 3yrs of thought with some interesting discoverys along the way like getting a bulk electrolytic power supply which sounds pretty dark and ugly to sound like the transparency and speed of a Polyprop based supply which was discovered by going after another principle. As one DIYer pointed out for every dollar one spends you often can get 10 back in performance and I think this project met that mark as for the cost of this project it was a 1000$ in parts with several hundred hours of thought and alot of math. SET12

I certainly disagree. I've heard quite a few "high end" turntables and cartridges in action, all plugged into very expensive systems. One stands out as being one of the best systems I've ever heard, but that has more to do with a professionally designed room treatment than the system itself. I've heard several that didn't sound any better than my $400 turntable/cartride, despite costing as much as a new car, and certainly didn't sound better than CD's. To be fair, I've also heard a few CD players that cost as much as a car and didn't sound any better than the CD player I bought for $160 used. In all cases. the owners of these systems say basically the same thing that you say, and it seems to revolve more around a very large investment in equipment than any real improvement in sound. Without a doubt......................., you are definitely "Def"! Get yourself a Blose system. Klipsch out. You really are rude, aren't you, jazman? The sad thing is... I kind of agree with you. If you spend big on your source, don't expect your middling level system to reveal the improvements wrought by better engineering and the superior components found on most high end CD players and turntables. A really well engineered turntable probably won't reveal how good it is until the amplifier and speakers can keep up. Unless of course you resort to a DSP where you can dial in whatever sound you like. This Thread has been excellant on all fronts! I have enjoyed it very much and I believe one must compare apples to apples such as a 500$ CD player to 500$ LP rig and so on! And to hear the most to be had one should have the rest of the system in some what proportion. I can say that I certainly understand the pains of the care of an LP based system and yet appreaciate the ease of CD based one! I have enjoyed both! But only recent yrs have I enjoyed much CD, due to my CD source direct to SET amp set up. I am a DIYer because of the expense of it based on my income and the sheer pleasure of designing and building my own! I have had fortune of some pretty impressive results based on my local peer's listening sessions some of who are recording engineers and musicans. I have not tried to do an all out assult on a DAC project, but I will! but for now based on experiances with Digital and getting down to the brass tax I have yet to hear a Digital Player compete with this giant and if you take a good look you might say that this thing is real over kill with its supply and I wondered that to! but after taking 1/2 of it away and listening to it I was a little shocked that it was audiable. The only commercialy available phono stage in this ones power supply class is the Aesthetix IO a two box design like mine with a 900 joule power supply and I might add that some of the IO's are sold with a second Supply surpassing the energy of my own! not many people in the world have such giants In my opinion my own is vastly more transparent than the IO has been reviewed as being and I can understand why which I won't go into detail here! But when it comes to sheer dynamics I haven't heard any Digital product come close to this Anaolog Giant!

Speakerfritz, What you said here makes perfect sense to me! especially avoiding the use of other earth ground connections from other breakers within another breakers run because if there is a serious fault issue with high current it could involve another location point to start a fire! At a second location rather than keeping it localized would be my take on the code you mention here and a very good point to mention and since some of use are into tube gear which in itself can be a fire hazard you point is well said! And I have witnessed even tube preamps starting on fire as well as having a friend tell me about his 200 watt/channel tube PP amp go NOVA! on him more than once! Dedicated lines are great to use I once had the pleasure of wiring a listening room for this and used wire rated for 30 amps with two outlets out of phase with one another for some of the best dynamics I have ever heard from Acoustat Monitor 100 watt/channel Tube Power Amps I also had a seperate line for my front end componets! BTW a friend of mine also owned a pair of these which started his living room on fire when they were in standby mode while he was gone! luckly his fire stayed localized enough for the fire dept. to arrive and save the house. One Moral here be careful with tube gear! and shut it completely down when you leave! SET12

You hit it right on the head from my perspective! With the Mids backed down where they belong! I could appreciate them in Bliss[] SET12

Richieb, Congratulations on your discovery! I found the same path a few years back and have no desire to spend funds on an expensive line stage better to put in your front end especially with Digital Players that feature line outs with enough juice to drive any power amp. Still with enough input sensitivty and Klipsch's I don't find it difficult at all, My preamp has been on the shelf for years now and it is a pricy one at that in its day! But it sure covered alot up and restricted my dynamics. Two channel performance is my preferance although I could add a switch to easyly switch in and out my DVD player which I also use direct, I just simply swap IC's The following is a conversation with some of my local Forum members and by the way I am also a big EL84 fan I have posted some pics on the forum here of it it is yellow brass in color and very good looking if I do say so myself! Also I imagine that your amp has the same circuit as the Manley Stingray or the Mahi Monoblocks in which case for the 50/watts out your sensitivity is in the 300 millivolt range more than enough for Klipschs don't even worry if your passive is all the way up! Front end componets are designed not to clip of course Preamps are rated at clipping but rarely do in real use. So heres some of my conversation over pre or no pre! Rzr, I have been waiting a little bit here before I threw some comments out. Dennis Had lists your input sensitivity as 950 millivolts in or .950 volts. I did the math on it using a couple of different primary loads for the 2A3 and I see it more in the range of .750 volts which is good! Now imagine if you had an input sensitivity of .250 volts in! That would represent a gain of 9.5db from the .750, my own Motiff line stage is just 10db of gain! If it went the other way like 2 volts in or lets say 1.5 volts in which isn't uncommon you'd need 6-8.5db more gain to make up the system sensitivity from your .750 that you have now! Yek's! Now lets take that a step further and say a sensitivity of .125 is dialed in thats another 6db of gain for a total of 15.5db!! That is very easy to do with just a single 6SN7 triode sections cascaded or in series with one another. The 6SL7 the amp is using now in its configuration is producing a gain of maybe about 50 when an 6SN7 cascaded can do upwards of 250 Even the Western Electric 310 can do 150 and thats one pretty tube especially the mesh plate or even the electrically equivilent 6SJ7 I have an article where Dennis Had redesigned one of his kit 300B front ends to to produce a sensitivity of .130 volts this was done so the guy would get better results dynamicly, In Dennis Had's own words it was "explosive" The trick to making it really work absoulutely is the right gain for the system. In mine I do strongly suspect that my Sony is doing more than 2 volts just because I've had other sonys with a 2 volt rating that didn't quite have the reach they did play fine though! the sensitivity of my amps is around .7 volts for 10 watts out. Most of the time I am at 10 or 11 o'clock on my volume from a control that goes from 8 to 4 with clipping occuring around 2 o'clock with the Titanic sound track I think with the cut, sinking of the titanic the sound track for clipping test is relatively gentle for hard clipping because of the short intense peaks that it has but it is very audiable The control on my CD player may well be linear type and maybe most are on CD players, rather than a Audio tapper type as most preamps use and most are about 10K and mid settings are of course about 5K output impeadance. Now here's the clincher do you know how much of the signal is typically fed to the gain stages of a preamp when a typical audio tapper control is used? I'll tell you! As I measured one in one of Dennis Hads preamps! Just 20% at the 12 o'clock position!from ground! and the rest of it is between the preamp and source! Not good! something Doc and I disscussed a bit. Where as with the CD player I am using is more in the 50-60% range of the control, Much better! So my point is when you have enough gain dialed in the front end of a power amp especially from the gain stage that is already being used anyway why not take advantage of it! And have less gain stages over all in the system! to give you more transperancy and even greater dynamics obviously I certainly am not hurting for that aspect! And I have just 3 valves in the signal path! So these are the kind of things to think about that make alot of sense to me both subjectively and from a measured point or science point of view but I think I have a better understanding of when and why it will or won't work with a preamp or with out a preamp! So when I design amps I will need to keep all of this stuff in perspective as to marketing. One can have a happy medium for sensitivity though that can do both although both can be optimized I don't think I can put it any better! SET

I have heard the Tulip but unfortunately I can't really give you much an assesment of it because of the associated gear and set up of it that I listened to. The speakers were Druids rated at 101 db/watt there was enough volume to reach maybe mid 90's and the owner felt that they were not that sensitive. Herb Reichart a major DIYer that has built over 100 amplifiers did a review of the Tulip in Listener Magazine several years back was very favorably impressed with the tulip and even bought it because of its sound and great looks its hard to build something from scratch for the money that competes with its price but it can be done. If I were to look at other 2A3 amps I might lookn at a Used Cary KR2A3 amp will be more dynamic I think than the Tulip which I have also heard and it will do 5 watts but in the end a 10 watt 300B will give you the power for rock that I think you will enjoy even more. On another note my own self designed SET Monoblocks rated at 10 watts peak from a 811/572 running Class A2 power ( Transmitting Tubes with thoriated filaments- the glow) have no issues exceeding 100db at my listening chair from a modified pair of Forte's that are rated at 98 db/watt, I also once brought my amps to a store to listen to them on a pair of RF35's I had a sleu of sales staff standing around just drooling over their sound with my SET's I am a believer that Klipsch crossover componets are rather poor my own are outboard and I spent some 800$ on parts they are extream any thing is just about an improvement over stock especially the caps are the cheapest to replace and a good place to start I have posted several pics of my crossovers through the forum both under construction and after construction. May The Glow be with you! SET12

Marvel, Congrats on your SET arrival and listening pleasure, Even with what I refer to as a classical design appoarch, can be enjoyed by most people these type of amps are one of the easist to modify and alot of fun. I learned alot of out of the box principles of design from my own I guess your just sitting back and enjoying them as they are and perhaps as they always will be. If you have any interest in moding please feel free to drop me a line. Enjoy! SET12

Hi Speakerfritz, You certainly live in a crowded area my god! No wonder you have power issues! Thanks for your assesment of my observations. I see that the Home Theater power conditioner debut has a following for the Belkin PureAV Power Console I guess I could use for my AV stuff! I find it pretty generic it is nice looking and a good product name. There is not a lot of imformation about it other than covering the very basics of protection and noise filtration. The Furman is another story and I'm very glad I found this product as it really works I don't think I would trade its performance for some conditioners that are many times its price! As they do not have the ability to source current like the Furman does! SET12

I agree with this for the most part for people that live in very active areas. I live in Appleton, Wisconsin some 25 miles south of Greenbay a small city of some 100,000 people we have a lot of mills I live in a fairly low noise residential area so I really don't have the issue of noise. My concern is not with Voltage Fluctuation at all either. Even though it does fluctuate here + or - 6 volts according to my Furmans bar graph LED line monitor at the most. Nor is it with line noise even though my conditioner has lower my precieved noise floor of my system. What I am very concerned about is the Lines Power Factor especially during day, It is usually better at night! When it has fewer appliances running in your nieghbors homes along with their Air Conditioning running less and the list goes on and on! As you share the Pole Transformer with your nieghbors up to ten of them! if the line is Resistive which is best then the power factor of the line will be an ideal mathamatical value of1 If the line is Inductive the mathamatical value will be less than 1 like a .5 which is bad what this means is that the current available on the line will be lagging the voltage meaning that the lines current is not in phase with its voltage a bad thing when it comes to an amplifiers dynamics. This is basic AC therory folks. There are a few ways of tackling this issue one of which is AC regeneration, Or like the PS Audio Power Plants an expensive route for some of us as well as using DC power and their associated inverters. Nagra Audio has introduced new solid state amplifiers with Power Factor Correction Circuitry to correct for this issue. The Furman Power Factor Corrector tackles the issue by lowering the AC line impedance and storeing energy being able to source some 45 amps if need be. I am aware of just a couple of Manufactures that have related to this and their designers think that it is an even bigger issue than noise!. Furmans Referance Product that sells for some 2500$ is able to source some 90 amps so this product seems like a bargin and I can afford another if I like! The issue of Power Factor of a line is so important in Europe and Japan that they have mandated all computer supplies have some form of power factor correction built into them and this mandate may happen soon in the U.S. as well due to the fact that true power and apperant power are not the same and an Inductive line cost more large mills that don't make an attempt to keep some balance are penalized in their rates Below is what some may call a flowery discription of the Furmans Technology. Furman Sound introduces the all new Power Factor Pro, redefining power conditioning for the guitarist, bassist, or keyboard player. Todays AC power is contaminated. Whether you play in a stadium, bar, or rehearsal space, they all have one thing in common: the AC power is supplied from your local utility. The power factor supplied from your buildings AC outlet is typically poor, thanks to increasingly overtaxed power lines and raised line impedance. In fact, the quality of AC power has been so poor for so long, most musicians have no idea how great their amplifiers could really sound. When the AC power factor is poor, amplifiers sound muddy because their power supplies cant deliver when pushed. The scream and cry from a guitar loses bite and harmonics, basses lose their punch and weight, keyboards sound nasal, losing clarity, attack, and extension. Not so with Furmans Power Factor Pro. Clear Tone Technology The Power Factor Pros Clear Tone Technology actually lowers the AC line impedance supplied by your wall outlet, while storing energy for peak current demands. In fact, there are over 45 Amps of instantaneous current reserve in the Power Factor Pro. Coupled with Linear Filtering Technology (LiFT), this dramatically lowers AC line noise to unprecedented levels in the critical audio frequency band. What does this mean? Just plug in your current starved amplifier, crank up the volume, and listen to the dynamics, harmonics, and clarity youve been missing! This product is working very well for me! And everything that it is doing has been verified several times and each time the improvements were very audiable. Again Thanks everyone for their input! SET12 P.S. Other conditioners can be used with this Furman Product such as line Voltage Regulators and Isolation Transformer based products they are Fed from the Furman.

How about this nice Phono Stage

How about this DIY 300B!

Speakerfritz, Thanks for your contributions to this thread they are all very good points! And there are also other peoples notable points as well, Such as dedicated lines and the influnce of devices in power strips etc. all very interesting! SET12

That should be very interesting! I believe the VTL is an amp designed to run single-ended or push-pull! Please tell us your experiance and the other associated componets used in the system! I also have listened to Manley Mahi's a similar design to the tiny triodes these are very musical amplifiers highly recomended along with the Stingray.

I'd agree with stock crossovers, but not with ALK's set up properly

Isn't that an autoformer in your AVS that is a single winding? Are you thinking about an additional transformer line in and 60-0-60 out?

And I was always of the opinion that it was the Forte that was THE Klipsch Rock speaker. Max why do you think the Forte was known as the rock speaker? Is it because of the low frequency extension? This is an area that a few of my Klipsch buddies always like to point out to me (owners of LaScalas and Khorns) when they are over commenting on the very good solid state like bass being driven from my 10 watt SET mono block amps. SET12

please say more on this kills dynamic's I have to agree with you this has been my take on isolation transformers unless they are huge like 3-6 kw you may be looking at killed dynamics because of the high source impeadance of them a company like Iso Clean handles just such a product and yet they recommend with higer current demands that two of them be used in parallel each one is 3 kw, here is the distributors web site http://www.aaudioimports.com/ There is a dealer for these in Chicago, Essential Audio has told me that their magic is easyly demonstrated and that without them it is like listening to cardboard cut outs! Maybe? I haven't heard them these things go 60lbs and 2700$ each.

Did it seem to reduce line noise, or did it definitely reduce line noise and make a difference. The reason I ask is because I've yet to meet someone that can say a line conditioner made a real difference. I own one. It wasn't cheap, and I can't say I notice a bit a difference. Nothing at all actually. Personally, I think they rank right up there with high dollar speaker wire, and cheap snake oil. I honestly don't think a power conditioner offers anything over a good surge protector. There are many different types of conditioners out there! The Furman is unique in that it attempts source current when it lags the voltage due to a line having alot of motor activity, The line becomes inductive people are often sharing power transformers on the pole with 5-10 other house holds many people have experianced great late night listening and have noted a differance in the sound of their systems I believe the more performance a system has the more you'll notice. Many conditioners simply attack the noise issue or they correct voltage by regulation, Other people will use Isolation Transformers large ones at that 3-6 KW but they do nothing for the Power Factor which is a relationship between a purely resistive line and an Inductive or capacitive line usually Industry uses a bank of capacitors to change the phase of the current, a power factor of 1 would be a purely resistive line where as a power factor of .5 would be very inductive. You can find the electrical math on this subject. When an amplifier wants its current for a dynamic peak the line if it could talk would be saying to bad I'm keeping the current at what it is and am not releaseing any more this is what a choke does in a tube amp besides droping noise across it. Chokes are a topic onto itself. But the Furman does work as advertised it does eliminate noise maybe not as much as some conditioners but my main interest is its Power Factor correction capabilities which are very audiable in my system. SET12

Does any one know anything about these replacements? As they are cloth domes and may have a very smooth tonal presentation! From these people DIAPHRAGM-PYLE HORNS AND OTHERS. 1" VOICE COIL, CLOTH DOME 8 OHM (Also works in Klipsch K-71, K-72, K-74, K-75, K-76, K-79, K-80, K-81, K-82, and K-83)

Hi people! I noticed a disscussion in home theater about power conditioners and thought the 2-channel could have a discussion on them as well! The following comments are from my local club posts. I am new to them I spent about a week doing some research and have found a very good performing one that is working better than I expected for the funds I have spent with very good construction quality here is a couple of pics of mine which is not as nice looking as the rack model that Speakerfritz owns but is less costly No doubt since becoming a NEWAS member the clubs members are having an enfluence on me Recently Raggy pm'd me with an interesting product which I'll let him go into detail, But the thing that caught my eye was a claim of being able to "reclock" for power factor correction. Over the past week I have been searching the net for any imfo on the subject when I ran into Furman Power Conditioner line with their IT-Referance 20 a 2500$ 80lb monster that has not only balanced power out like the EQ-Tech but with Power Factor Correction. Raggy's designer felt that it was an even more important issue to be addressed than just overall noise in one of the forums that I read and I would have to concur based on what I learned in my Electronics Schooling. And interestingly, Raggy has a few of the Furman products in his studio and has indicated that the company has an excellant reputation and service. So What is it? It is poor quality power an it is getting worse! Ever wonder why listening to music late into the night sounded so good? During the day alot of electric motors are running, and they are sources of Inductance this inductance robs the ability of your amplifier to source current that's "amperage" there by starving an amplifier of its dynamics! Because an Inductor resists current change it would rather hold the flow than give it up! A typical transformer for residential electric service is about 50KW it will supply 5-10 homes those 5 -10 homes will be using lots of appliances all shareing the same line you are! Power Factor is such an issue that in Europe and Japan, They have mandated power factor correction supplies for computers! Furman has a product that can within limits correct this issue! By sourceing current! Its called a PF-Pro Power Factor Pro - Series II and as of this moring I just bought one. A link to the PF-Pro Power Factor Pro http://www.furmansound.com/products/pro/pwr_cond_seq/cond/_pf/pfpro.php This particular model has 1/2 the capacity of the Referance IT - 20 one of these can handle Raggys mono's or my SET's and a few Solid- State amps It comes in a pretty version and an ugly industrial version I opted for the cheaper Industrial looking one as I may buy a second unit. Check out www.furmansound.com I bought mine from www.audiomidi.com because of free ground shipping for 245$ This product can also be use in series with other conditioners please consult Furmans for imfo as to use to avoid damage to either units. The Furman has arrived as of yesterday afternoon, I hooked it up right away and let it cook awhile. It is constructed very solidly and is rather nice looking you can get a rack mount one that is alot better looking but it is some 50$ more. Susan steped out of the house for awhile which allowed me to bee line to the stereo and check out some of my reference recordings for an hour or so. Heres what I have initially found subject to a longer evaluation. First thing noticed is a substantially lower noise floor. A larger soundstage as though it isn't big enough already but recently one of my 572 tubes filaments let loose and I had to insert my old Svetlana 811's their soundstage is normally a little smaller but not by much. With the Furman installed the soundstage is substantially larger than with the 572's Their clearly seems to be more imformation everywhere, ambient especially. I noticed, lateral imfo is more clearly outlined as well as the back of the stage. It seems the decays are longer piano especially sounds great. Vocals seem to almost pop out in relief really grabing your attention. Something Rzr may very well like it sure got my attention. Dynamic Range seems greatly enhanced with a greater sense of ease. The system seems to have a greater sense of solidity with speed, bass notes seem like they will stop on a dime, pitch defination is better not that I ever had alot of it but the bass lines are better defined almost like being fit and trim with greater wieght and authority not that I ever had an issue with authority, but the 811 has never been as convincenceing as the 572 yet with the Furman in place the 811 goes beyond what I remember of the 572. All in all the Furman has some magic no doubt. I am using the Plug with my CD player as we did at Boss's in combination with the Furman. With the Furman sourcing current alot of these observations makes sense. As I mentionioned elsewhere Niagra has a pair of solid-state mono blocks featureing Power Factor Correction built into their amps. SET12

As a SET designer I thought this review was right on the money for a classically designed SET I couldn't agree more after reviewing the schematic for this amp. SET's are capable of much more than this design I would rather live with one of my PP designs than to live with this circuit and I am a SET lover. I find the supply design very slow and restrictive as well as other issues but thats the biggest area of need for improvement. As far as tubes the GZ37 is one of the best and shows its merits with a stronger faster supply as stated I think one wouldn't find much differance in rectifiers as was found. As far as 2A3's a fave in my local group is the KR2A3 it is even richer in harmonics then most 2A3's and can do up to 5 watts do to a higher plate rating and it sounds similar to a 45 and has a greater emmission from it's filament as well as a higher vacuum, it is pricey but worth every penny! KR also has a high emmission 6SN7 pricey as well I haven't heard it but I certainly would like to! SET12