SET12

I have probably 40-50hrs on them and they are absolutely stunning, I had some company last night and the man said he never was a fan of Klipsch to speak of (neither was I till I started working with them with a SET amp) but he said he sure liked what he was hearing and was one of the best Klipsch's he'd ever heard. The new mids took a while to break-in and bloom but when they did they created some of the most phenomenal sound I have ever heard in my 36 yrs of high end audio. The first cuts I played for him were from Jenifer Warn's CD Hunter cut 10 and cut 1 which he described simply as just huge. And when he says huge he means that the imaging just blew well past my 18ft wide side walls speakers are just 9 ft apart. Our last cut of the night was Cassandra Wilson's Belly of the Sun CD cut 8 Wichita Lineman the dynamics of everything in the recording just floored me but the thing that stood out most was the recordings harmonics which were so extensively full and with beautiful decays that they just took my breath away. So I'm just blown away by what Bob has developed with these new midrange diaphragms. Thank You Bob Crites! SET12

I have been using Bobs tweeters for some time now and the Midranges for a couple of weeks. I think what your going to hear may be system dependent. I use outboard networks for my Forte's pictured here I use a Duelund Copper VSF coupled to Bob's Larger Autotransformers which are connected in the large black box with the green terminal post. The coupling caps are some of the worlds best IMO and are 4x more money than Bob's new mids, but IMO Bob's mids are just as signifcant subjectively as the Duelund caps are. Bob spent 2 yrs developing these, and I hear his efforts. My system is a simple one with CDP direct to my SET Amplifiers. After about 5-10hrs Bob's new mids started showing their stuff, I find them awfully smooth and very detailed, I believe as Bob says, these do not have bounce back at higher frequencies which make for harshness. Piano is just phenomenal with more meat and potatoes to the sound without being hard. They hold together better under more complex material under high spl conditions. Simply put they are World Class IMO. I am currently doing a comparison of my modified Fortes to stock Fortes here http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=25

Russ is right. It can be very rewarding. Transparency especially. I had a Peach II here in my system, which is very popular on this forum used with my highly modified CDP and I preferred my CDP direct. My system also has substanial dynamic response and yet I still prefered direct as the low end on the Peach II was loose for my tastes, I think part of the problem of the Peach for me was it is loaded with switches which can get in the way of transparency. The reason for this is I learned that music on its leading edges can approach 100 volts/micro second. This creates a diode effect with switch contacts. So the more switch contacts the worse it gets. It explains to me much of vintage gear sound. For me it takes a very,very expensive preamp to satisfy my needs. SET12

Or how about these DIY 833 amps. I don't really have any info on these other then some more pictures of them on my local clubs site along with a few other unique amplifiers. http://newaudiosociety.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1137773606

Sure read all about them here! http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roadtour14/roadtour14.html Komuro 212E Monoblocks The Western Electric 212E and the UK equivalent 4212E is a massive direct-heated transmitting triode. Standing over 13" tall and 3 5/8" in diameter. The small input tube is a 6463 high conductance twin triode. Komuro drives the 4212Es with a pair of triode-wired KT-88s.The 4212E is a massive direct-heated transmitting triode. Standing over 13" tall and 3 5/8" in diameter.

Of course there is always King SET power like these WE212's which are more my of my cup of tea.

Perhaps this is someones cup of tea!

While I have great respect for Al's work, I do find there is always room for improvements subjectively! For instance while Al suggests not using anything but Litz Inductors for the squawker and tweeter or you'll regret it! I beg to differ! I tried Litz 14 AWG in contrast to my 8 AWG solid core and found the Litz to sound very thin and way over the top in detail, it was just to much in a big way! While I found the North Creek very full sounding, smooth and just right for Bob Crites tweeters. It is so right that people have a hard time believing they are listening to horns when here. Inductors, So you can see I'm partial to North Creek as they have served me well as to your values you can get the North Creek custom made and I wouldn't hesitate at all on those if owned a pair of LaScala's and I would do the largest I could affoard and I think the 8 AWG's for the squawker and tweeter look affordable. One of the selling points for me on North Creeks was their low tension winding as most manufactures use high tension winding methods which cause micro fractures in the wire. A friend of mine just informed me that Mundorf has Inductors as well and prices look very good for their air cores. Duelund also make Inductors but their prices are almost double for their PIO inductors (not even their best!) vs my North Creek Low Frequency 3mH 8 AWG's at $500/pair Its pretty amazing what is available and just what these exotic parts are capable of IMO! Another thing to remember is just because something is in parallel and out of the mainstream signal path don't think its signature is not important! That point was made to me with the 40 ohm tweeter resistors which I was using Ohmites that North Creek spent a fair amount of time auditioning some 20 varieties of resistors to be used with their speakers. One issue for them was temperature coefficient as most resistors have a positive coefficient he wanted to use one with the lowest possible coefficient as he felt that high ones impede dynamic response! Well I think he was right cause I use Duelund resistors which have a negative temperature coefficient they are made of Graphite and are 4-5 times more expensive than your typical wire wound resistor but they are by far the very best I have ever heard by far and I don't mean this lightly, They are that good in that they make most resistors sound strained and rough in contrast! These are 18-$20 each but as I said worth every penny! Caps, I prefer Duelund VSF or I'd even try their Aluminum or Mundorf Silver and Oil. This just a start for you here of course there's more to comment on but the the items above for me are far and above the norm in my experiance , more or less you can go as far as you want! But the people that have used this stuff that I have are just as satisfied as I am and especially the Duelund parts as the man spent his life developing them and I certainly hear his efforts. SET12

I can tell you that what was enticing about Al's networks was the ability to adjust the mids level which my buddy and I felt was elevated sucking out the low end in our opinions. Once the mids were lowered the Bass came in spades over all the speaker is much warmer sounding! Part of this I believe is the use of Air Core Inductors! Which I find the larger the better! Many people like to use subs with LaScala's but with Al's networks as my buddy has done them none are needed! Also consider the range of the LaScala woofer vs. a sub! You get several hundred Hz of warmth from the ALK networks as the sub is only good basicly to 120Hz. I could hear the difference with the new networks as I walked into the room, they were that profound to me. They inspired me to redo my own stock Forte networks which opened my ears to what is possible! Which case I designed my outboard networks so I could try different componets in a matter of minutes and I found everthing has its own signature some good and some not so good! Of course much is system dependent. I know now from this experiance I would have a hard time living with most Klipsch stock networks along with the typical parts I even see used in upgrades. What I did was extreme but worth every penny I put into them both for what I learned and the sound. My Outboard Forte Networks

Heres my Buddies LaScala DIY ALK's on Plexiglass Hope this gives some ideas.SET12

All 30,000?! Did they even make that many Forte 1's? Of course not, I stand corrected, see my edit. SET12

Hi Dave, Welcome to Klipch! Myself I prefer 3-ways, and I to listen to a lot of Jazz and I have 10 watts of power. You might consider the Heritage line of Klipch like the Forte 1 that I have which I have taken to heights I never thought possible with crossover modifications that are what may be more than what is typically done but have been very rewarding to me and others. Nearly 30,000 people have viewed my thread and many have undergone many of the modifications I have in the same pursuit of high quality sound. Some of which inspired them to work with other Klipsch speakers as well. The nice thing about the Fortes is the low parts count and fairly low values which allowed me to use some of the worlds most exotic parts which could be cost prohibited for many. It really depends on what your in pursuit is of whether or not its worth the effort to you. Here's a link to some of my pictures of my outboard Forte networks. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12 If you go to the first page you'll see the start of what I did. Feel free to contact me with any questions SET12

I agree with the premise, but the actual implementation doesn't always come out as intended when going that route. Coupling more behavior into a single gain stage can introduce other compromises that may offset the desired increase in transparency. Thank you DrWho, Your key word "implementation" is correct. I use a a bottlehead C4S current source for my drivers plate load and LED biasing of the drivers cathode which makes for one dynamic driver stage. Gain of my output stage 811-10 or the 572-10 is typically twice that of a 300B. My power supply is also a contributor as well with an extremely low DCR path with a unique implementation of supply caps making for an extremely transparent fast and powerful amplifier. But never the less when implemented well it is more often than not a more musical experiance IMO. SET12

I agree that there are better inductors on the market than the Super Q, but I thought it would work well for the KLF-20, and is a good step up from the originals crossover components.The best crossover is no crossover at all, and rather than spend mega bucks on overpriced capacitors and inductors you might consider going with an good active setup. GotHover, Thank you for your understanding of that! And at the same time please pardon me, As my pursuit of performance is not something that is average but that of the extraordinary. As I have found in my 35yrs of experience that "if one wants extraordinary sound one must do extraordinary things" This goes for the rest of the system as well. And just doing what I did with my outboard networks doesn't guarantee the level of satisfaction that I get out of my system. So ones mileage may vary a great deal. But at the same token a project like I have done will allow the rest of ones system to express itself fully. Weak links are expressed as such as well. In my system every part changed in my crossover was heard very easily. So what works is largely system dependent on a whole. Though I have found that parts like the very large North Creek Inductors and Duelund Caps and Resistors make such a project more likely to succeed and succeed they do! I to have experimented with outboard electronic crossovers. But I found a better approach IMO. I would prefer to do it within my amplifiers! I saw this once in Sound Practices Magazine and I thought it was a stroke of genius! Why you may ask! Simply the elimination of gain stages! Every gain stage you have in series is a form of compression and another loss of transparency. I often hear it in amplifier comparisons in watt for watt If one is using solid state amplification like a many typical power amps you could easily have 5-7 ore more stages. And if your using a line stage you can add those as well. My power amps basically have just two gain stages. And a supply that has the equivalent energy of 10 typical home AV recievers. And I don't use a line stage simply because they often get in the way. And the ones that I might be able to live with are in the 5-$10,000 range which I don't have. Even my CDP is a real monster at nearly 40lbs and a power supply of 150,000uf's nearly 10 times that of an average CDP. From what Larry was indicating to me it was my understanding that he wanted to pursue some of this especially when he is considering parts like the Duelund VSF Capacitors that I use in my networks. Through the yrs a lot of money was spent and I had some pretty nice gear. But I can tell you nothing has ever been more thrilling than DIYing as I have with this stuff! Doing what I did to my networks has taken me on a journey few people have gone before and I might add an extraordinary one at that! Mine is but one journey and certainly nothing is written in stone! And so everyone has the right to their own journey, and so, to each their own! Cheers SET12

First, as stated before you will need tools to test the inductors afer you are done winding them. Second, it is difficult to wind the coils exactly. Most of all because inductors are fairly inexpensive, and for your application I would use a quality Iron core for your 1.6mH like a super Q inductor from parts express and a aug14 foil inductor for the HF. If the values you are looking for are not readily avaialable, you have the option of picking something close, or go to the next value higher and retuning. The parts express woofer tester will check inductance, and can be used to retune a choke. I saw you were considering AUG 10 for your inductor, but using an Iron core at 700 Hz will most likely give you a equal or lower dcr considering the wire will be 1/4 the length, and the Super Q inductors are good to 2khz or better. Enjoy, Dave. Unfortunately Iron Cores sound compressed in contrast to Air Cores due to "hysteresis distortion" DeanG in ALK's Inductor shoot out thread mentioned a listening test he did with a Super Q Inductor that had the same DCR as his Solen 10 AWG Air Core's and as he said it was imediately obvious to him that the Iron Core sounded lean! http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/38976.aspx?PageIndex=1Perhaps some people can live with a lean sounding Inductor but I sure can't and certainly not after experiancing my 8 AWG monsters, routinely I get asked where's your sub! SET12

Larry, I just measured my North Creek 3mh 8 AWG and as close as I can measure them they sure are massive. Diameter 6.5 inches Height 1.5 inches Inside Diameter of Hole 1.5 inches DCR .10 The .16mh 8 AWG Diameter 3 inches Height 1.5 inches Inside Diameter of Hole 1.5 inches DCR .02 SET12

Larry, Unfornately there is more involved in wrapping your own. One is a good accurate meter. Two is how you do it! When I was going to school, a few of my instructors chastised me for buying the North Creeks but on the North Creek site there was some obvious reasons why I thought I shouldn't as even the schools Inductance meter was not calibrated close enough. And I thought it sounded a little messy, so I bite the bullet to speak of, and I have no remorse for doing it! From North Creek Is "Perfect Lay' better than "Scramble Wound"? This is very dependent on the manufacturing process. Perfect Lay uses slightly less wire than Scramble Wound, resulting in slightly lower DCR. However, Scramble Wound inductors have slightly less self-capacitance, which some individuals claim is audible. But there is a caveat - perfect lay inductors that are wrap-and-dip (not vacuum-impregnated) have mechanical resonance problems because the inner windings do not get bonded. Scramble Wound wrap-and-dip inductors do not have this problem because of the increased penetration depth of the bonding fluid. In our subjective tests, no one has been able to hear the difference between a vacuum-impregnated Perfect Lay and vacuum-impregnated Scramble Wound. Are bobbin-wound inductors any good? Bobbin wound inductors are usually scramble wound under high tension inside a nylon bobbin, then taped with masking tape so the outer wrap does not come loose, and are the least costly type of air core inductor to produce. This is called "bobbin-wound, wrap-and-tape". They suffer from high tension microfractures, severe high mechanical resonance problems and also tend to be microphonic - not a good combination inside a loudspeaker cabinet. Luckily, most bobbin-wound inductors can be upgraded, by carefully removing the tape, applying a bead of hot melt to fix the last outer wrap, then dropping the entire inductor sideways in a can of clear shellac that has been thinned at least 50% with alcohol and letting it sit for two or three days, rotating the inductor every day, then allowing them to drip-dry overnight. Because they are usually scramble wound, and thinned shellac has very low viscosity, the penetration depth is quite high. Again, there is a caveat - shellac is very brittle, and dropping a shellac-dipped inductor will usually break its bond. If this occurs, repeat the dipping process. What about "goop-wound"? Goop-winding is the process of winding an inductor inside a bobbin or former, while a bonding agent (usually hot melt adhesive) is applied directly to all of the windings throughout the entire process. Goop-winding makes a very unattractive inductor, but they sound remarkably good. This is the only method recommended for those that wish to "wind their own". And then we have the Micro Fractures to deal with. From North Creek again! First and foremost, our wire wound inductors are made on a custom built, tension-free winding machine. This winding method minimizes the stretch and mechanical deformation of the copper, so there is no strain on the copper and its conductivity remains at a maximum. All copper foil inductors (and most copper wire inductors) are wound at very high tensions, so both the copper and the insulating film are stretched and remain under tension for the life of the product. Tension is differential stretch, which creates microfractures in both the copper and insulating material. This is about the worst thing one can do to a conductor. The second factor is mechanical stability: North Creek inductors are varnish sealed in a vacuum chamber, which bonds each winding to the six surrounding it throughout the entire body of the coil. Most copper wire inductors are varnish dipped, which seals the outer wraps but not the coil body. Copper foil inductors are usually heat sealed, which seals the edges but not the body. Typical copper wire and copper foil inductors will have a number of mechanical resonances that are activated by current flowing through the inductor, and can be heard to "sing along" with the input signal. Because of their unique vacuum impregnation, North Creek inductors do not show any signs of mechanical resonance. That's hard to compete with IMO! I prefer the peace of mind that they are matched and the materials are correct not stretched and fractured! And so on! And when I'm spending the kind of money on Duelund caps that I have I'm even more glad that I made the purchase! And while ALK proved that the "Q" factor of the North Creek weren't as good as say Solen Litz, for Bob Crites Titanium tweeters it wasn't even a contest in my listening experience, for me the North Creek was "oh so sweet and full sounding!" I for one never expected such a huge difference it was as though Bob's tweeters were a high power magnifying glass and everything became abrasive sounding it's as thought the Litz was to much! So this is what I refer to as voicing and perhaps the Litz would work with something else better but not in my system and of course I use tubes and I can't imagine what SS would of been like can you say chalk board! Cheers! SET12

Hi Larry, Yes, Bob does have the better autoformer here at his site http://www.critesspeakers.com/ And specificly here http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html You have the 7A which is for a -10db reduction so you'll need his 3504 replacement. I would estimate its core to be about 50% larger. I would say you can also hear imroved bandwidth, greater air in recordings with a greater sense of ease. In a nut shell they are worth every penny and help put the meat on the bones as you put it! and are a perfect companion with the Duelund VSF cap your interested in. Larry, Solen does make a 80uf PP cap here at Madisound were I often buy parts. They will match these for you as well here you can always parallel two 40uf caps as well if you wish or any combination. Mundorf's are within 2% or better. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=152&products_id=762 Be sure to get Bob's Titanium Tweeter's as they are very smooth, Typically many people have frowned on metal dome tweeters but Bob's are smooth! I did find that my choice of inductor was a big issue for ultimate performance for me! The Inductor choice is not about "Q" factor but subjective presentation! I tried a Solen Litz which ALK found superior in "Q" factor but I found the Litz to be very incisive or bright for my taste and it sound just plain lean in contrast to my North Creek 8 AWG Air Cores. Why? I don't know I just know that Bob's Titanium's were heavenly with the North Creek's and Mundorf Silver/Oil coupling caps and I was told that the combination was the nicest my local club members had ever heard from a Klipsch and they don't even care for Klipsch's in general! But the results I am getting got their attention! Could it be better yes I think so, with Duelund's but we are talking nearly $600 for Copper VSF's and more for Duelund Cast and an ungodly amount for Silver's! The Mundor's do a very good job IMO for now. Man that stuff is expensive but with out a doubt some of the finest in the world IMO. BTW Duelund rates their caps in VAC typically 200VAC is nearly a 300VDC rating. You'll never aproach 200VAC. When I first did my networks I used Hovlands that are 100VAC and of course I never had an issue nor expected any issues. Its one well made cap unforunately I found them very hard sounding. So no need for the VSF 400VAC's I haven't seen the 1.25uf VSF's being offered. As far as I know an AK member with KLF20's I talked with had Partsconexion get them custom made I don't recall hearing a price for that. For those interested in specifics of cap sound comparison subjectively you might try this site as its where I got turned on to Mundorf's and Duelunds http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html Larry you could go to the 2.2uf Mundorf Silver/Oil's I don't think it would be to much of an issue. Otherwise you could go to the 1.8uf and use a .22 bypass of your choice perhaps the Mundorf Supreme Cap MKP would be a nice bypass IMO based on Humble Homemade HiFi's reaction to them. Oh yeah, Don't forget those Duelund Resistors! Absolutely the finest I have ever heard period. They droped my jaw makes all other sound harsh in comparison to my ears! And they are pretty reasonable at abot $18 each or so. Also Larry George at North Creek will custom make the .16mh inductor as he did mine the price is the next size up if you interested. I especially like the size of you 1.6mh low frequency inductor as its a lot less expensive vs the 3mh I use. but I about mine more than 5 yrs ago for half what he has to have today for a pair! I think if you don't consider the 8 AWG I'd get the 10 AWG for sure I have no doubt you wouldn't regret the purchase of these as they lay the foundation to the music. Incontrast to what your hearing now the stock Iron cores in battleship terms would be like your Iron cores would like be a Tin can as the say in ship terms compared to a Battleship, Full taught and fast! still turns my head today! Cheers SET12 Mundorf Supreme Cap MKP Mundorf Supreme Cap MKP

Good Luck Larry [Y] If you can drop me a line on my thread over on AK when have your stuff! SET12

Crossover performance can be huge. Though I like Bob Crites upgrades especially the tweeters, I feel if you want more you have to go further than Bob's work as I have. See Larry's KLF20 thread for my comments and picture with links. SET12

Larry, IMO, Iron core inductors are just flat out lean sounding in contrast to Air Cores. Outboard networks are great! And the KLF20's that you have would be a first choice for me if I had to do another project like my Forte's done here. See my thread on AK here in reference to your KLF20's and why I like them! Along with the latest pictures of my networks. And a lot information and opinions. Scroll down and you'll see a comparison of KLF20's vs KLF30's in cost using some of the worlds best parts IMO. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12 As to ribbon Inductors I have reservations Read Inductor FAQ's at the bottom of this page. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html Cheers SET12

Best Cap I have heard! Duelund by far VSF Copper (the square on the right), the Silver is even better or the Cast. Their Graphite resistors with a negative temperature coefficient (long slender brown) are very affordable and way ahead of the competition IMO. Even when used in parallel with my tweeters they are the sweetest! SET12

No I am no familiar with the X33ES which of course is older than my player but it looks as though it has similar robust construction meaning that it probaly has the twin supplies like mine. Even the top cove is just like mine. I have no doubt they can be a good candidate! Also I see Burson has changed the board a bit making it some what more compact yet! The nice thing about the Bursons is that even if the Sony passed away the Burson's can be pulled and used elseware for a passive preamp for instance or preamp with gain. And you could salvage the Sony's supply even for such a project. I would purchase a schematic which you can get on line where I got mine for about $15 I think http://www.servicemanuals.net/ Here's my CDP thread link again showing whats envolved. It looks more intimidating then what it really is but with a service manual it will make you even more confident. And don't get me wrong you do have to be careful a local technician should have any trouble. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185971 And you can watch a video of a technician doing an install here Here was my first install (buffer) before I added the dual modules(digital filters) Here's the player in its stock form as I was looking it over and doing some planning. In the end it has been a real pleasure to me but ones miliage may vary depending on the CDP and other add ons like a supply increase which really was not to much more $. For super charging the Burson's! SET12

My solution, I now use a Duelund VSF Copper Foil and Crites Autotransformers for my mids and a Duelund Graphite resistor across Crites Titanium tweeters. Below is the current look of my outboard networks. With my latest Duelund componets Mr. Duelund who has since passed away spent his life developing crossover components for extraordinary sound. And George at North Creek Music has done the same especially with his work with Inductors. And I might add though Solen Litz may have a superior Quality Factor the North Creek are simply more musical involving for me. Duelund often found that his networks often exceeded the cost of his drivers! And I can see why! All I can say is, to my project, it has surpassed all my expectations and beyond. The "Fortes" are like a thoroughbred race horse for me. I had the opportunity to hear the P39F Palladium's with an Argon amp. I was surprised at what one of its watts had to offer! And I'm sorry to say My own SET Mono's were more dynamic and informative watt for watt in contrast to the Argon amp. But some would say its the P39's low end that maybe a factor there. My networks are expensive but at slightly less than 1/10 of the P39F's price they yield for me some very some of the most extraordinary sound in my 35yrs of audio, In the end my moto has become "If you want Extraordinary sound you must do Extraordinary things!" Cheers SET12