Manuel Delaflor

Malcolm, Leaving aside all the concepts in your post (which are correct generally speaking), the best bass I have listened in my life has came out of Tube preamps and amplifiers. The theoretical control you mention of typical SS's is simply not there, at least in the sense of replicating the natural resonance, timbre and speed of acoustical instruments. Last week I learned this when I seriously auditioned (for the first time in my life) some Hi End tube designs from Margules Audio. There was a fairly good SS HK in there for comparison purposes, and I can tell you, the bass in Classical music is simply an horrible mess with the KH. With the Tubes, on the other hand, the bass is spectacularly tight and controlled, one can easily hear that there are several instruments playing at the same time, instead of the blurry mess of the SS. As you can see, I don't buy anymore any theoretical concept, no matter how well done is it. I choose to believe my ears. Now, of course, if you talk about really difficult loads (which the Heresy IS NOT), then SS can have some use, but again I will never run an SS without coupling it with a good Tube Preamplifier! This message has been edited by Manuel on 09-14-2002 at 01:38 PM

Malcolm, Can you be a bit more specific about the bass issue with your Heresy's? I think that a good tube amplifier will drive them without any stress, probably what you say relates to "weak" (in watts) tube amplifiers. Now, have you listened your speakers with a Hi End tube amplifier? In a week or two I will buy an Hybrid integrated which uses a tube pre and ss amplification. I will post my impressions here. This message has been edited by Manuel on 09-13-2002 at 05:21 PM

sunnysal, In my opinion, a lot of still unkown subjective and objective factors are involved in the listening process. I tend to be an "objectivist" but can't deny that there are not a reliable way to measure any set of characteristics to do a map about such terms as "accuracy", "detail" or "lifelike sound". One should listen before having an opinion. If somebody says all amplifiers sounds equal, and all he has done is read internet posts, something is very wrong. Specifically speaking about tube amplifiers, one should go and listen some gear, preferably really hi end equipment, and only then decide if they like SS better than Tubes. But I think this will be difficult... This message has been edited by Manuel on 09-10-2002 at 10:08 PM

Obvious vote: HERESYs> It is a no brainer, Heritage sound, same drivers as the almighty Klipschorn, Horn on tweeter AND mids... what else do you need? Oh, yes, bass... I can tell you, if you carefully locate your Heresy's they will give you a nice punch. Don't even doubt about it.

Have you considered Tube amplifiers? I have experienced myself their beautiful sound and now is the only thing I want for my system.

Poleelop, What about this one? ACRH-1 Certainly appealing to me. In fact, my next buy!

I use them as bookshelfs on some stands. Far from the side and back walls. The tweeter and mid horns are at my ears level, and of course I use a good sub with them. Play with them, as you know, speaker location is the trickiest part in a system's setup. You can make your speakers to play music or to interact with your room creating all kind of colorations and artifacts...

Lol Mobile, But I still think that the DB tests I have read about are bad designed... I will try to make my own tests and perhaps even go for the unclaimed 10K offering that I saw here: Who Knows? Maybe I can really win?

Poleelop, I strongly suggest to contact Julian Margules. He will explain to you better than no one what his products are able to do. For what I read in the info of his site you will be prepared for easy upgrades: quote: In some instances, the owner of an HD-1 may want to upgrade their system by adding a high quality tube amplifier. In this instance, the internal power amplifiers of the HD-1 can still be used in conjunction with either the preamplifier section or an external remote unit such as a dolby/AC3 processor, multi-room control device, active crossover for subwoofers or other add-on components. This gives the owner the ability to drive another set of full range speakers in another room, rear surround speakers, or subwoofers as well as any number of configurations one can think of. It is also possible to effect a power upgrade to a quad power unit that, when connected, will convert the unit from 75W/channel to 220W/channel (using a special Magenta bridging add-on). Oh, and I also think is a beauty:

kjohnsonhp, It would be interesting to do a double blind experiment. At this moment Im sure the differences are really there. On the other hand, I have a scientific background, and it should be interesting to design a proper experiment. The problem with current DB tests is that they rely on an assumption; that you can identify something without comparing it to your previous experiences and memories. It has been demonstrated that our auditive memories are not precisely accurated, so I think the "normal" DB tests are somehow bad designed to really show something of importance. I would focus the attention of the subjects on little clues and for a very brief periods of time (just seconds), for example, one of the differences that were absolutely audible is that with Tubes I could hear the resonance of the box of the string instruments. With the SS on the other hand all I could hear was somekind of mess, something resembling the resonance, but with a blurry effect of some kind.

Mobile, quote: But mediocre solid state (which there are A LOT more of) can really be painful and unmusical via horns. I will go as far as to say that you don't need Horns to realice the lack of musical realism on most SS's. In the Margules Shop I listened to his speakers, no Horns there, but the sound I whitnessed was as good as Any Horn I have listened to. Dynamical, very dynamical, both in macro and microdynamics, the detail and character of the instruments was there, the percusive and lifelike qualities, all was there. He said that this was because the amplifiers, that he was before also a believer about that the speakers are the most important part in the chain, until he begain to experiment with Tubes. Margules have several patents and I think you might be interested in hearing some of his gear. In fact I think people like you will be able to enjoy better the CD's using an inexpensive little "black box" that he sells by the name of ADE 24.

Tom. I think I understand you a bit now. You are a contrarian. Nope, Im not trying to put you a sticker. I want to explain why I feel this way. On the HTF there were a discussion around Klipsch speakers and every Horn lover jumped on the thread. I was there and of course you were there. Right at the end in that thread I said something about Klipsch Horns and you replied that, well, you love Horns, but certainly not Klipsch's ones. Then the next reply I got from you is in this thread, when you simply state that what I said was somehow wrong. Don't misunderstand me. I know what you tried to say and I think it was ok to say it. I didn't tried, but apparently I was doing it, to say that every Tube amplifier is ipso facto "better" than any SS. What I said and I mantain is that the Margules Tube amplifiers I listened to are better than ANY SS I have listened in my life (and I have listened some fine amplifiers, like Bryston's or Krell's). There is something musical, euphonic, tuneful if you want, in the Margules gear which I presume is also there in other Tube amplifiers. Something that is simply not there in any SS I have listened to. A musical refinement which is lost in the cold reproduction of waves that is common to every SS I have listened to. Am I right? Am I wrong? Nope, I feel I have passed away those distinctions, if you know what I mean!

Yesterday I witnessed what all the buzz about Tube amplifiers is, I went to the only Hi-End Manufacturer in my country and fall in love with his equipments. I spent almost three hours listening and talking with the owner and designer, Julian Margules. Margules Audio The equipment I listened was the lovely U280-SC amplifier and SF220 preamplifier, the ACRH-1 Hybrid Integrated, the "black box" ADE-24, and their Orpheus speakers. First a bit of history. I have Heritage Heresy speakers, the first model with the same drivers for mids and highs than the Klipschorns, and I drive them with an old SS Technics pure class A amplifier. Now, I certainly love my gear, but yesterday I found that his non horn speakers can sound as great as my old horns both in micro and macro-dynamics! Of course this fact leave wondering why. His answer: The amplifiers. The Tubes and their "magic". He also have a fairly good SS Harman Kardon amplifier in order to make quick comparisons. After listening to the U280-SC for a while he connected the HK and all the magic was gone! The sound-stage was greatly reduced, the intimacy of the violins and human voices was gone, generally speaking the sound was less pleasant and in particular the bass of the contrabass and the cello was a complete mess, I couldn't hear the detailed resonance of the intruments anymore. It was a revelation. Then he connected another amplifier, this time his Hybrid design the ACRH-1 and the magic came back (this integrated uses tube preamplifiers and SS amplifiers), the detail this gear is able to draw is comparable to the one I listened from the U280-SC, far away from the ugly sound of the pure SS HK, and its price is really really good comparing it to the price of the U280-SC and the SF220 (no wonder why this will be my next acquisition). Yesterday I fall in love. Im convinced now. No matter how well the SS's can measure, no matter how convincing is the speech behind them (about the "accuracy" or whatever else comes to your minds), the sound they can make is far away from the richness and completeness of Tube amplifiers. If you are an SS lover don't believe me. Try for yourself. You might be surprised by what you find. Oh, I almost forgot. If you are one of the guys who feels that CD sound is awful compared to the vinyl, you need to listen again, this time using the Margules ADE-24. This little box really do miracles to the cold sound of CD's.

Mike is right Arena. Don't listen to horn bashers, better listen to horns and judge for yourself.

Where are you located? Im interested, but only if shipping to Connecticut is reasonable.

An audiophile have the right to know, for sure, the ultimate meaning of terms like "accurated", "neutral" and such. If a physicist tell them that he honestly can't understand the meaning of such words in the audio context is his problem. Besides, who cares what a scientist think? An audiophile have the right to believe the concepts that hi-end manufacturers create in order to sell equipment. Such refinements as "this amplifier/speaker/cable will give you the inner feeling, the warm and delicacy of real music" are to be taken as absolute truths. Any audiophile who questions this is NOT an audiophile. In fact there most be an undiscovered law among this. The price paid most be in exact relation to the believe strength. To bad Im not a mathematician to put it in numbers. An audiophile will be able to hear, beyond any rational doubt, the smallest subtleties and tinny changes in sound quality. The smallest imperfection in any of his cables or line conditioners will have an audible impact of unknown proportions. An audiophile have the right to believe that recording engineers are godlike creatures with absolute knowledge on how to make a perfect match of a true life audio event. To think otherwise is to put in danger the Entire Industry. Me? I can't care less about this subjects. I don't care about what the recording engineer wanted, I don't believe in the hype the manufacturer/seller/buyer will make arround any kind of equipment. Give me a signal and the tools to modify it at my will. That will make me happy. This message has been edited by Manuel on 09-03-2002 at 09:40 AM

Now, that's what I call a post to think about! This message has been edited by Manuel on 08-30-2002 at 11:07 PM

Prodj101 and Prana-Bindu I think the question is not yet resolved, yet you both continue to speak as if you know exactly what are you talking about. What is a neutral speaker? The one that the manufacturer says it is neutral? The one that is considered like that by the audiophile community? or perhaps the one that you both consider to be "neutral"? Furthermore, neutral in respect to what? other speakers? Where is the table when one can compare speakers to see if they color the sound (or whatever is needed to appart them from "neutral")? Does the price or technology involved makes them more neutral than others? Again, based on what? on the manufacturers process? on the materials? shape?

quote: Originally posted by skaloumbakas: Hi-End systems should make you distinct different versions of the same Symphony for example, and give you the ability to decide about good or bad recordings, good or bad orchestrations, different flavors of Pianos or violins etc. This is what is all about. Im not sure Im following, but I would say that this will happen no matter your system. Someone can have some Avantgarde's, some will have Wilson Audio's, some will have Kharma's or whatever brand and all they will listen different things. Even assuming all have dedicated and treated rooms. So, some recordings will sound better in some equipment and some others better in other, there are a LOT of factors involved here, even if we left out the predominant one: subjectivity.

quote: Originally posted by maxg: When reproducing the live event it is important (for some audiophiles) that the reproduction match as closely as possible the original performance. If you like - we are diferentiating between the values of production and reproduction. In other words we are defining neutral as the ability to play back the original performance (with all of its flavour and colour) exactly as it was - with no added gain or loss due to the reproduction. And this is, exactly, what is impossible, even by definition. True, it is "the holly gray" and what is wanted, but most tend to forget that there is no way to know how the original performance sounded. The maximum goal would be then to reproduce the recorded session. But then again, we have not way to know how the original recording sounds. So, we are left to believe that our particular gear will play it as accurated as possible. We are left with just faith on the manufacturer we trust the better. The only way to listen to the original recording the way the engineer wanted is to go to the original studio and listen the master there. And even there, we will be far from hearing the original performance. This message has been edited by Manuel on 08-30-2002 at 09:07 AM

quote: Originally posted by TheEAR: Cant wait to see the Adire Tumult. Yep, a couple of those boys in a well designed enclosure will put to shame almost anything else... It will be really interesting. Of course, think about four of them in an IB!

quote: Originally posted by Prana-Bindu: I ask Mr. The Ears to correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect he was referring to a neutral sound, not a neutral measured response. I think you already stated why "neutral sound" is at best, just a theoretical goal, and of course one hell of a myth: Quoting you: "The second use, I believe, is erroneous, and I'll tell all y'all why: We can't repeat and reproduce for each other measurements of many perceived qualities of speaker performance (soundstage qualities, imaging, for example). Every speaker leaves its signature on the sound fed to it. There is no way to know what the original recording is supposed to sound like, because that knowledge involves the use of a particular pair of speakers. Perhaps the best approximation of this kind of neutrality is to compare your speakers' response to the response of the speakers used in the studio to mix the recording? Using the same electronics? In the same room? The original recording is a useless referent, as its examination requires a particular commitment to a certain set of electronics and a certain pair of speakers. In other words, you can't listen to the original recording without the listening session being stained by the equipment you use to listen. That kind of neutrality is a myth."

Rotflmao!!

Wow Dustin, the Aurasound is an impressive driver!

Dustin, Now, that was a nice dream before you woke up!!!