Quiet_Hollow

You'll need a flash video player (what YouTube uses)....and a good set of ear bud headphones or something else with good bass response down to 30Hz. Wimpy player is a small file freeware, works well, and is cross-platform. It's what I use.

Excellent catch!! Just checked the back of the speakers....yep '90. Now I've gotta change my signature and my YouTube videos. '89 was the year of a pair of AL equipped cabs I used to own. For whatever reason, the number just stuck with me. I might switch out to poly caps one of these days, but lack of bass has never been an issue at my place. Thanks! Did you get a chance to check out the video?

Stock AL-3's

Video as promised. http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/327691/EQdemo-flv.html It's a 70MB flash video. Yes, Megaupload looks like a fly-by-night FTP host with head shop and male enhancement ads, but it works. A little slow at times, but at least you'll get my video in it's entirety. Can't use YouTube for reasons we're all too familiar with. File name on the site is EAdemo.flv but will download as EQdemo.flv

Setting the DEQ to mimic what my sub woofer arrangement accomplishes down to 30 Hz, in my specific circumstance*, I end up with the following: 31.5Hz +13.5 40Hz +7 50Hz +2 60Hz +5 63Hz +9 70Hz +11 80Hz +12 90Hz +2.5 160Hz +0.5 200Hz +1 * These numbers are not universal. If you want to give EQ a try without blowing the bass bins out, start with the numbers I mentioned earlier on the post. For best results use an SPL meter, test tones, and run the math. Check voltages with a multimeter. This approximates the frequency response of the AS-EQ1 / sub / and amplifier combination. I say approximate because using solely the La Scala's, I'm at the complete mercy of room acoustics given their placement. So this arrangement can safely put 100 dB @ 31.5Hz across my sofa along with rattling everything in my living room. Yes, at that utmost limit, ~ 99 dB, there is some audible distortion that is familiar to anyone that's heard a woofer being pushed near Xmax. But, I don't listen to my system that loud with music for the sake of my hearing. So at more reasonable levels for myself, like say 85 dB, everything sounds very good still, even with Telarc stuff. I understand the subtle differences and can tell that it isn't "horn-loaded" down there, but it's a heck of a lot beefier than the raw response of the a stock La Scala and a completely reversible mod. Short video in the works for those who are curious... *edit* - for grammar

This is what I did too as I've got a component horn sub. Yeah the La Scala's will never dig like that machine can. With only the La Scalas fired up though, sliding in +5-8 dB in the 30-60Hz range is like listening to a whole new set of speakers. From this: To this:

It's one percent. There's a decimal point in there. It is also stated in the lower right as part of the second to the last paragraph. And that was measured at 100dB (ie. pretty darn darn loud). It tells me that this speaker plays very loud, with very little distortion, within the paramteters of the test. Trying out EQ is a lot cheaper and less permanent than acquiring a sub of commensurate quality or giving the cab a facelift. Does not even the finest woman look better with something as benign as good make-up? IMO it's not. My speakers are lucky to see one watt. Why? Because otherwise I'll have the fuzz over at my place asking why dishes are rattling in neighbor's house a half-block away. A factor of 6 is 6 watts and would be raising absolute Cain. It just isn't as big of a factor at the power level I'm talking about. I'm saying if you want to be conservative, and subtract for "power compression"...by all means, go ahead. Subtract a full 6dB (compresion of an average speaker at 100 watts) and the number is still more bass than your police will gladly shake their stick at. That math is wrong. 25 watts is displacement limited power. There is little, if any, power compression taking place. It's just not an issue at anything under 100 dB SPL with this design's capability. I'm not blowing smoke. C'mon, keep it real. People aren't chopping up their La Scalas for infra-sound.

Distortion figures are part of the engineering specication shown below. I'm not claiming those numbers at 30Hz, but Klipsch has them for 45 Hz and above for the home version and 40Hz and above for the LSI. Keep in mind, the bass bin is not comparable to a standalone powered subwoofer that can easily dip into the infra-sonic region. There is nothing glaringly distiguishing about the freq responses shown below until you realize that the K-Horn had to be in a corner to get those numbers. The La Scala wasn't. However, comparing the two is not the point of this thread. +/- 8 dB is far from "EQ the crap out it". It didn't, seeing that the senario requires less than 30 watts. But if you want to substract 2 dB SPL (a reasonable number) ...it still comes out above 104 dB SPL. I hear ya.

The specs might appear paltry, but run the numbers. Half-space the La Scala is 96dB SPL @ 1 watt (conservatively rated) from 30-60Hz. 25 watts will net 13dB over that. That's right around 110 dB, as I mentioned before above. All well within the power envelop of the design.

When it has to cover nearly 4 octaves in the mean time? It isn't like that cone is scrambling to just get by down there. It's loafing along, EQ puts the spurs to it.

Distortion at a normal listening level for me was inaudible. As far as maximum output capability, calculated max RMS SPL in half-space (because actual is situationally dependent) when you flatten the bottom end using a 8 dB of EQ, would be ~110 dB SPL from bottom to top. Enough to easily flap your clothes at all frequencies when standing near the speaker. Running without EQ...yeah, thin would describe it. They really need 3-5 dB of EQ in the 30-60 region to get full. 8-9 dB and they get down-right authoritative . Nothing the drivers can't handle at all, given the design's lofty sensitivity. I've found the bottoms of mine to vibrate at even the most minute levels, almost regardless of playback level, and at most prominently the mid bass frequencies. Which makes sense as that would be approximately the natural frequency for a 22 inch span of wood (ie. the un-braced mouth). When dialing in the EQ, the cabinet vibrated no more significantly that it had already been doing so....in my experience. The LSI uses a K-43 woofer which is tuned higher than a K33-E. None the less...even 40Hz is pretty damn low for music. [bs] The La Scala was designed to output K-Horn style goodness in the absence of perfect corners. It can do that just fine without physical modification.

I understand the uniqueness of your very large shop / lounge, but you're also running home theater. Have you ever plugged in an EQ just to see what you could've gotten away with strictly for 2 channel music? []

La Scalas have sub bass. For all the people contemplating buying a sub, or god forbid, physically modifying their cabs solely to listen to music..choose wisely. I have to raise my brows when someone contemplates cutting up their cabs, or says they can't get the bass they want out of 16 cubic feet of bass bin. Buy or rent an EQ and slide in 5 dB from 30-60Hz. Simple as that. What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each, 8 square feet of mouth, 96 dB of sensitivity in the basement in half-space, with 20 dBW RMS of headroom over one watt. I run a sub with my pair for home theater extension, dynamics, and precision bass management over my meager receiver. But I ran my La Scalas solo, listening, err flat-out jamming, for 5 years no-problemo before adding a sub. If you find the bass in a stock LaScala lacking...EQ because it's in there. *EDIT*- Link to the video is on page 4 of the thread, and fixed broken links.

+ 1

I appreciate the scale of your system. Just saying that using a compressor on the play-back side of the signal chain for anything but live sound is not proper implementation of the device. I'd be a little skeptical of that recommendation. BTY - at 6000 ft^2, that's not "home" theater....that's real theater that happens be home!! LOL [] Should be using 2-3 full width T60's or a DSL TH221.

55 dB SPL just loafing along with some quiet evening jazz, and yet, I can pick out every little nuance. All the while, no sound makes it beyond the living room. I really enjoy that no matter how low I set the volume, the La Scalas and sub can still completely resolve the music from top to bottom. Anyone else enjoy über-subtle levels with their systems from time to time?

Leather....ug.

. As far as using a compressor in a home stereo....don't do it. That's not what it was designed for. The THT placement is room specific, unless he's shuffled them around and listened to where they sound best in that room personally, his recommendation would be moot.

In addition bass + bass + bass ? simply more bass. The only time sound from two or more sources sum is when it reaches the listener in absolute phase with each other, to include all the harmonics. Then, they only sum logarithmically, a lot less than you think. Otherwise they are working against one another. This is a waste of power at the listening position, destroys transient response, and puts a bunch of errant energy into the room to vibrate, among other things, the walls, shelves, neighbors, etc. Factor in that each bass driver contributes their own distortion and the whole situation quickly becomes a steaming pile of audio. It is much easier to manage bass from a single point. However, If you're going the multiple source route, they had best be identical in response, exhibit low distortion, and be controlled by a DSP that can manage all their timing in a closed-loop fashion.

My misunderstanding. [:$] Sage advice there.

I'd recommend against that as a means of comparison. It'd be a nice visit no less, but there'd be no correlation regarding K-Horn's and Jub's in terms of presentation. The two tops would sound vastly unique from one another. There's very specific reasons why Jubs sound the way they do, they are not K-Horns.

The difference between the "LFE" and "Line In" regarding the RW-10 is this: Signals routed through the "LFE" input by-pass the subwoofer amplifier's low-pass filter. Any filtering will have to be handled exclusively by the receiver when that input is used.

I remember that thread. What's he got hanging on the wall there? a portable MRI? Free energy device of sorts? Oh oh! I know.... "Whack-a-mole 3D" right, right?!

[]

Dunno. Some of the offerings from the Genelec 8200 series are pretty delicious for their size.