HornEd

Thanks for being there Boa! Having four KLF 30's is a treat... a pair for mains and a pair for side surrounds. It is surprising how much better side surrounds they are... must be the efficiency. So, now I have a pair of KLF 10's to put to work. The Denon 5800 quandry boils. Some say it has a softer sound than the Yamaha RX-V3000 I have but which can be traded in to take $2k off the 5800. The cost of this deal is not so much the issue as speculating as to which receiver would produce the best HT environment for $2-4k. The Yammie has two separate 25 watt front effects amplifiers... but I suppose I could rig up a seperate amp to the front outs and create a front effects channel in addition to the mains. I am open to any suggestions. The 5800 caught my eye because of its rich array of algorithms to provide 6.1/7.1 from a wide variety of sources... even stereo! Also, there is more speaker latitude with two sets of discrete surrounds. But... I have some trepidation regarding Denon's record of less than spectacular service... and the oft cursed remote control that comes with it. The 5800 has 170 watts per channel (Yammie has 100x6 channels, 25x2 channels)... way more than the KLF 30 need to fill this room with sound! Also, there is a grapevine issue of a 5801 model coming for the Christmas season. My lack of experience with Denon products puts me at a disadvantage. Rumor has it there is strong reason to doubt Denon's customer service standards... and the quality of the 5800's remote. So, what would you do if you were me? Thanks HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Side Surround: KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R Rear Effects: KLF 10 L/R Rear Center: KLF 10 atop KSW-12 Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Boa, I was about to buy a Denon 5800 and thought I woudl stop in the process to ask you why you chose Marantz. I bought another pair of new KLF 30's this afternoon... to use as mains and use the occaisional "bean effects" pair in the "rear." Does your new Marantz allow for front effects speakers... I really like what they do for a RPHD system like mine... allowing the mains to be tight against the monitor for smoother dialogue. If I go ahead an by the Denon 5800 I gain neo 6.1 but loose the front effects capability... unless I buy another amp to accomodate it. I would appreciate any input... quickly! HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Probably even older, Boa. Remember when John Madden (of NFL fame) used to pitch beer commercials... well, I was the guy on the football, baseball, basketball, etc. team that also got to tutor John and others to keep them eligible for sports at Jefferson High School... a long time ago. Actually, Red (as we called him... it was that long ago) was really acting in character with the beer commercials. Our football coach was shot across the chest and throat by a Japanese sniper in WWII and had difficulty making himself heard at half-time. Not to worry, John just bounced around, full of psychic energy, exhorting everybody to be better with all the volcanic emotion of one of those commercials. Cheers to ya. HornEd PS: Oh, yeah, and my cake said 63 on it last week.

Hey, Boa, read the instructions... life HAS changed... the has joined the Legends in mortality. You must now type a : and then biggrinn: to get to work. The one that didn't work for me was ~ (which is supposed to stick its tongue out... and may be fixed by now). Oh, and I am not a Miller fan... but their commercials talk about the "High Life" which was hopefully humoursly linked to "No Life." And the non-ractive spell checker is threatening to turn Klipsch prose into broken English spielers. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Once a cherished and respected webmaster, BobG has been suddenly relegated to the Boa rank of "No Life"... a shock to all of us who look at our Klipsch time as reflective of the quality of our lives. Obviously, the new system needs more high tech work to retore our beloved webmaster to his former status. On second thought... enjoy the "No Life" BobG... while the rest of us reach for a Miller. Except for Boa, of course! On second thought, BobG, get a life and... fixe thy speall chexer. HornEd

Hmmm... that's mighty peculiar because, "I found the absolute best sounding speakers that Klipsch has ever produced are the one's that I own."... but, upon reflection, they will be the ones I am about to own. Must be all those "BobG Whiz" comments we have been reading! HornEd

Thanks, BobG, I kneaded that! My basement is "littered" with at least fourteen from other vendors... In deference to your new slate of K-wonders I should probably be holding back until I see them. But, my primary incentive remains bringing a daily shot of auditory joy and neural reinforcement to a 93 year-old mom who can't afford to waste a day! The RS-7 sounds very promising and I look forward to hearing the complete package soon. As you may guess, my local Klipsch dealer doesn't frown when I walk in... and they are trying to bring their sales crew up to speed thanks to your roving sales booster team. At least, they don't have as blank a look as they did when I first asked those Klipsch questions. That being established, I have some concern about how the RS-7 would resolve the ambiance/discrete problem. It seems to have enough muscle for the discrete but how about its potential to issue the timely broad scattered "aural clues" necessary for full enjoyment of Dolby Surround "standards." Actually, it would seem to be an exciting time in the sound business... and maybe a bit risky for both manufacturer and, to a lesser degree, the consumer. A spurt of continued economic well being (for manufacturer AND consumer) with a commensurate growth in sound technology AND creative implementation by the "film" industry makes for an enticing caldron. Up until your above post, BobG, I was thinking of building an experimental hybrid which would have an external amp with outs to a BASH implemented sub feeding a pair of WDST horns. The primary receiver would be used to feed the "discrete surround" speaker such as the RS-7. From what I see on this board so far, the RS-7 and its companions are a cut above what Klipsch has offered in this class speaker... but, it seems that there are still some issues in getting the most from both older and emergent HT sound formats... but then I may be picky... but as long as I pick Klipsch, I hope you will be tolerant. Actually, the Klipsch revolution in this household was sparked by the nonagenarian ears reacting to the presence Klipsch horns. Thanks for your concern... and quips! It continues to be fun playing with your now discontinued but still praise worthy speaker line... and look what training that and this board is doing to make me a better Klipsch consumer for years to come. HornEd

Right on, Boa! There's no sneakin' a bean scene through your listening lounge... Craig, I should have a "factory fresh" set of KLF 30's arriving Thursday... which will give me four KLF 30's and three KLF 10's to play with. (More on that is in my post on "Discretely Surrounded..." in Tech Questions. Suddenly, the opportunity arrises to turn a 30 or a 10 into a monster center speaker to better match the 30's on either side of the RPHD. Of course, while I might play a bit... I intend to hold tight to the KLF C-7 until any Klipsch surgery is an unqualified success! By using the KLF 30 with the occasional "bean streak" as the Guinea pig... if all else fails, I can reassemble it in stock fashion with special attention to sealing off the "campfire effects." Q, it looks like I can get some extra milage out of your experience. Thanks for making this opportunity worth exploring. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

I have just had the good fortune to find another pair of KLF 30's (auth. dealer, factory sealed) at a good price. Thus, it's time to ask for ideas as to how I can derive the best Klipsch HT sound from a different array of speakers. So, here's my plan. The Yamaha V3000 gives me a 6.1 config for all 5.1 or 6.1 formated DVDs (front center, r/l mains, r/l surrounds, rear center effects plus subwoofer... and r/l front effects). The mew array will have the KLF C-7 as a front center, KLF 30's for mains and side effects... with a pair of KLF 10's for rear effects... and a KLF 10 as the rear center effects speaker. The KSW-15 handles the front subwoofer chores while the three rear KSW-12's add a discrete kick when called upon. The SB-2's will still take care of the front effects sound stage. I expect to add another amp to allow provide power for the side effects KLF-30's and rear effects KLF-10's... or possibly migrate to a Denon to have more control over the surround environment. But, even with 14 Klipsch speakers in the room, there is a shortage in the "ambiance" character of the surrounds. Thus, I am speculating the addition of a pair of WDST SS-1's to mount atop the rear KLF-30's to correct that shortfall. I had been looking for some KSP-S6's to match the legends... but to no avail. With 30's taking care of the discrete aspects, I thought it not necessary to go to RS-3's... plus the guts of the SS-1 match those of the front effects SB-2's. Another option would be to set up a 7.1 rig by using a pair of KLF 30's as mains and surrounds with a pair of KLF-10's as rear effects... and experiment with turning the remaining KLF 10 into a large center channel... by cutting a new board to hold a rotated centered Tractrix and providing some shielding (which does not seem as critical on an RPHD 65"). Or as a third option, splitting the "old" KLF 30's and use one for the rear center effects and "rearange" the other to become a center channel speaker to ideally match the KLF 30 mains. The "Klipsch totem towers" (SS-1 atop a KLF 10 atop a KSW-12) would become the hybrid discrete/ambiance surround array. Maybe I should sell it all off and look to building something with the new product line... but it is kind of fun preserving the legend of the Legends and reaching out for new and better sounds. After all, why should PWK & friends have all the fun? Further... Klipsch pros will be around to provide support... whether it be a clever quip on this board or a plethora of great replacement speakers at my local Klipsch dealer. Join in the fun... make a comment! Thanks, HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2! This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-08-2001 at 08:42 PM

Belial, have you set up your system with a sound level meter? The center channel problems you are describing sound like what I experienced BEFORE setting up the system properly. The Radio Shack analog sound pressure level meter is about $35 and one of the most cost-effective tools you can use. Balancing the sound pressure level is the most important step for dialogue clarity and timbre matching after the fact. Try it, you'll like it. HornEd

YEA BOA!!! Now you catch my drift! Surround sound began as primarily an "ambiance" oriented technique and has drifted into being an increasingly discrete channel orientation. But, from an HT perspective, being able to have the advantage of the "ambiance" effects punctuated by appropriate "discrete" effects makes the most sense. It's digital sound, so why not tag the discrete effects sounds and blast them through an equivalent of the main speaker... and push all the rest through a 180 degree "ambiance dispersion" hybrid. For most instances, an internal automatic switch in the receiver that route sounds under a set db level to the "ambiance" aspect of the speaker and everything over a set db level to the aspect of the speaker that matched with the mains. I would suppose that a bit of switching electronics could be added directly to the compound discrete/ambiance speaker... and make the speaker be a top performer with any surround sound amplifier rig. It just doesn't seem that far fetched. Any more ideas? HornEd

Having had the "two center" experience and having gone from RC-3 to C-7 using KLF 30 mains, I would suggest using a single C-7 and tune up your system with an SPL analog meter from Radio Shack. I tuck my mains close to the RPHD 65" and use front surrounds to size my soundstage. One good center should do fine. Positioning it above the set angled to the listening area is best for "high-range" enjoyment. Below the TV usually erodes the tweeter performance and muddles the apparent dialogue/background music separation. But, fear not, you are on the cusp of some really sound entertainment. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Craig... you were posting while I was answering Boa. I know the drill about being stationed overseas. In fact, one of the most fun stereo speaker systems I ever owned was one that I backed into in Orleans, France. In the very old and very substantial stone building in which I lived, a previous tenant had papered over huge cupboards on either side of the fireplace. I carefully cut the woven wallcovering fabric to find very heavy oak doors. With great care, I removed enough oak to have 15" woofers, an exponential horn and a tuned port sealed in the centuries old cavities. As luck would have it, there was a built-in set of shelves that held all the amplifiers, etc. beneath the left "speaker cabinet". It was fun to watch the puzzled looks of amazement when people would walk in and not be able to locate the speakers! The approach your friend took is probably something I would like to try as an interim measure. I would appreciate any other comments along this line. Who knows, maybe starting over with the new K-line is the way to go. HornEd PS: I still look forward to a report on your "in-the-mail" report.

Unless I missed something, this Yammie doesn't allow such surround control. In past systems, I would piggyback another Yammie to serve as a distribution amp to two year channels (i.e., the "front" speaker outs of the second amp feeds the mid-theater surrounds and, with an inserted time delay, the "rear" speaker outs feed the rear effects). The effect can be awesome. In this case, I will probably do that... which will allow the Primary Yammie to also feed the rear center as intended in its 6.1 mode (real or matrix as dictated by program material). Thus, it seems there is a potential to create an induced 10.1 system (2 mains, 2 front effects, 1 front center, 2 surrounds, 2 rear effects, 1 rear effects center PLUS a subwoofer cluster) using 14 speakers. Then again, maybe I should save a little listening area for people listening! Somehow, for me, using KSP-S6's and/or constantly switching between specialized sets of surrounds do not seem equal to the answer I am seeking. Clearly, there are two different missions for surround speakers and they ideally should be met by the same speaker configuration... as is attempted in the WDST approach. I just think the concept needs some more "discrete" implementation... and I am seeking to do that by adding/merging a wide area potential to a solid discrete unit (KLF 10). Am I alone in such musings? HornEd

Dave is right on the money with the KSW-12 as the better choice in a "cost-effective" low end K-sub... and I made that decision three times for my system. Keep in mind, though, that the KSW-15 uses BASH technology (as explained by BobG in the power sub section)... and it really adds yet another dimension (for somewhat longer green )! The "direct radiating vs. dispersal surrounds" brings up a more difficult dilemma (as posted in "Discretely Surrounded" in Technical). The problem in a nutshell is that to enjoy what is available to us consumers as source material the ability to have both results in one discrete/surround speaker is needed... but then, I may be somewhat more "picky" about the rear portion of my sound envelope. If ever there was a place to push the envelope by manufacturers and creators... it is here. At least the Hope folks have coined an advertising phrase "WDST" and a product concept that attacks the problem. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

There was a time, before I could snag an increasingly harder to find C-7, that I used an existing Infinity C-36 as a center between two KLF 30's. It provided good service... as I suspect the Polk might. But, most confirmed Klipsch ears prefer to be serviced at a level far above good! A great center is probably THE key speaker in a multi-channel HT environment. The issues include dialogue separation from background sound, timbre matching mains, and relative speaker efficiency. It is very hard to find an acceptable cost-effective balance of those categories outside of Klipsch... for those who revel in the K-sound. If your experience is like mine, you will find that compromising the center selection compromises the whole HT experience... and that is revealed more and more over time. Best to chose a proper Klipsch before the disparity becomes more glaring... and expensive. So, it is not only what sounds better... but what sounds better over time. Caution, growing a discriminating "Klipsch Ear" is a "happiness hazard" of mixed key speaker environments. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Somehow, the speaker choices have not been equal to the challenge of the surround/rear effects channels. The closest for my rig would probably be the hard-to-find KSP-S6... and, maybe, some new Hope is about to arrive soon. Obviously, part of the problem is an industry which, historically, has not put as much emphasis overall soundtrack on rear effects... and just puts it best thought into a few "high drama" scenes. The Klipsch "WDST" approach helps... but, of course, the timbre of Klipsch mains is not likely to be matched with typically downsized surrounds. And using rear towers that match or approximate ones mains do not have the latitude of creating the ethereal sound qualities of well designed surrounds. I wonder, could a person put a WDST surround atop or nearby a KLF 10 or 30 and, somehow, connect it to sing out ethereally and let the tower do the heavier discrete work. Mounting the KLF 10's on KSW-12's has provided some extra depth to otherwise lackluster soundtracks... now to attack the ethereal end of Klipsch enjoyment! Any suggestions? HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Ah, Craig, such "treasure" found on the trash heaps of commerce rarely wait for opportune times. I am sorry to hear of your loss and hope the lone 10 finds a happy end. Maybe the new owner may have your foresight and relate his fortune on this board. In any event, you have sparked some serious thoughts in a lot of us. From what I understand, it is no picnic to build a superlative center and the C-7 (which you and I now enjoy) is one of the finest I have ever encountered. That having been said... I must continue to note that the C-7 seems to have been designed to complement more than our 30's... and, thus, the lure of a giant center remains attractive. I have put a bid in on a pair of new KLF 30's and am tempted to turn one of my older ones into a center... since it is beginning to give me some "air leak rattling" sounds at a fortunately rare frequency. Suddenly, the right KLF 30 becomes a wind instrument that interprets a tense moment explosion as a loud report from "Blazing Saddles!" Then again, perhaps I should let well enough alone for the C-7 probably handles the dialogue/background sound situation better than a modified KLF 30 on its side. May opportunity knock up another box for you to open... or at least pass on to a fellow board buddy. If the new "speakeasy&accurate" Klipsch line is as wonderful as BobG suggests, we may all be trading in our old boxes and significant others to bath in the sonic aura of Hope. HornEd

MacKlipsch, have you tried the Santana DVD? You can probably rent a peek at your local Blockbusters. It's vintage fun! HornEd

Good advice, Craig! I, too, love the KLF 30's that led to my current all Klipsch configuration. I also saw no great advantage to bi-wiring... and suspect that bi-amping is more benefit in a two-channel environment. Craig, I noted that you also run front effects and so I thought I would send this photo along. I like being able to tuck the KLF 30's in close to the monitor for HT purposes... and then having the front effects to widen the sound stage with Klipsch quality aural clues. I also noted that you have an SVS sub config and would like your thoughts on it. I am in the process of testing the effects of subs for their positive effects on nonagenarians... and have a dozen different subs to experiment so far... but no SVS to date. Any thoughts? HornEd PS: I also commented again on your KLF 10 project... hence the caption below.

Thank-Q for all of us who like to push envelopes and turn scratch & dent bargains into unique treasures. I am sure that Craig will agree that putting action to dream scenarios is well worth the time and expense... after all, that's entertainment... and the sound you may get is just a wonderful bonus. Q,your added info hit the spot... and brings to mind Craig's potential to use his existing cabinet (refinished to eliminate the scratches and buy a new grill) and just juxtapose the two 10" woofers on either side of the rotated horn and be done with it! While there is a potential that the port may be a problem, it would not be a big gamble to put it to the ultimate test... by listening to "reality" before you get too much sawdust on the floor following will-o-the-wispy-woofer speculation. Laying a KLF 10 on its side creates a cabinet that is just 1.25" taller than a KLF C-7 and a bit over a foot wider... and with a large RPHD there is plenty of room and little to fear from a lack of shielding. But, once I had the cabinet open, I would likely follow the idea of putting a sheet of galvanized metal (after testing as above) as a cost-effective minimal precaution. One of the best set of speakers I ever left with an ex-wife were hand built by a priest who attempted to stay within his vows of poverty by building a replica JBL horn loaded corner cabinet. The cabinet was beautifully done... except the front grill frame and material was designed to look tacky. But, to his bishop's ear, the genuine JBL dual 15" woofers, horn and x-over broke the poverty barrier even if the grill didn't. Since then I have searched in vein for another clever Jesuit with a penchant for K-horns and a bishop with the good grace to let him finish the project But, I would settle for another KLF 10 and an opportunity to build a matching center... even if it didn't beat the C-7. How better to build an even deeper appreciation for PWK and the Wizards of Hope. ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Congratulations Q!!! You had the guts and the sense to do it up right. Before I found my C-7, I was planning to rebuild one of my KLF 10's into a center channel. You proved that with the right kind of audacity and the sense to use Klipsch engineering in the sensitive areas... and some deft cabinet building ability... one can even build a better speaker than they anticipated. Now, do us all a favor and write down what you did and what went into your decisions and make it available on the 'net. From what I can see, you have had a class act from beginning to end. I hope you made photos of some of the interim steps... and publish a finished photo here ASAP. Meanwhile, rack it up and have a ball-Q! HornEd

This HT was built as nonagenarian stimuli... and so is on nearly all of mother's waking hours since her 93rd birthday. The 65" RPHD and expanded sound system have definitely been a factor in raising her awareness and cognitive processes. A few months ago, I changed out all speakers for Klipsch versions. It started with a pair of KLF 30's on the theory that the brightness of the "horns" would prompt greater awareness... and they certainly seemed to. So, to balance the system, Klipsch speakers were added all around. Even though sight is usually the sense of primary reliance, as eyes age, cataracts form, and the mind tires of the hassle of tracking fleeting electrons and putting them in a meaningful concept in the ultimate home theater (the one between our ears)... the importance of sound looms ever more stimulating. It is generally easier to process... particularly in the first octave where all you really need to be is hydrated and the vibes do the rest! So, for all you "Rock On!" folks, be sure to put a little extra aside for Klipsch support when you hit the "Rock On of Ages." HornEd

Hey Boa... congratulations on post number 1111 for "that's Klipsch." I noticed that your 1,000 post got you the title "no life"... yet BobG has nearly twice the posts and has yet to have his life style impugned! Rock on feathered serpent. HornEd

I have had very good fortune with Yamaha in home theater environments. Years ago, in a 60 seat showroom theater I piggy backed two Yamaha surround sound units to rave reviews of audio pros. The v3000 is a great unit that comes very close to the current top of time with the major difference being then proprietary 42hz chips for HT plus a modest 10% boost in power to six discrete channels. But frankly Q, I would wait a bit before I jumped for a Yamaha this early in the year. Denon 5800 is using some algorithms from dts that I expect to see in Yamaha's next iteration later this year. These algorithms turn virtually any source into a 6 (or 7) discrete channel sound feast. I would also hope that the new Yammies will have increased flexibility and control of bass management issues. Frankly, the V3000 is not the world's best two channel environment... but then again no one said it was trying to be. And I get far more value out of the proprietary DSP's than most people admit to. Again, the critical measure is the sound one enjoys... and not the snooty platitudes of someone else's ear. It is nice to hear someone else is getting extra jollies from the Yammie front effects function... once they are set up correctly, it is hard to think of home theater without them. HornEd