maxg

Anyone who genuinely gets great sound for minimal expense has not factored in the cost of his time. I don't care how dramatic you think the burn in has been - if you do not have a fixed reference point assume the sound hasn't changed and that you have. Expensive cables can make a difference to the sound but rarely in relation to their cost. The point of diminishing returns is meaningless to an audiophile. You can only stop upgrading when you stop listening to systems and start listening to music - or when the money runs out.

Groom, Very interesting and well considered review of the 901 - thanks. Just one point - I noticed your references to the first version. Have you ever tried playing with the V6? i think they are a rather different animal - being ported and with different surrounds for the speakers. As it happens I have a friend with a lovely looking pair of 901 version 6's in piano black he is in the process of perfecting in his room. Thus far I think he has made a lot of progress and the changes in the sound are sufficient to say that I think he has not surpassed the sound he had in that room with Khorns. O course - it is an odd room - but that is the fun of the challenge. I have an open invitation to take his speakers at some point to try them out in my room. I will take him up on that one day.

OK - this is the one to go for. You can now get a Denon 103 and try it out on the MC input on that receiver.

Thanks Shawn - I got that - I think.

"I want a real turntable so you guys will think I'm cool. " On this forum - with the number of Klipsch speakers you own - you could use an ipod as a source and your "coolness" would remain. You need a TT so that people on OTHER forums will think you are cool.

[:^)] OK - did you change the settings when changing the speakers - I guess you must have done. Is there perhaps one setting that is critical to getting this weird thing to play properly? It really does seem to be a twilight zone product.

"I totally love listening to vinyl when I have the chance, but being that my dedicated room is in the basement I often go weeks with out giving things a spin." Sorry dude - but reading that my advice would be to go spend the money elsewhere. If, on the other hand, you think that spending the money on an upgrade would increase the number of times you choose to listen to vinyl and presumably would increase the pleasure you derive then go for it. Oh and the Origin and the 103 is a good match - should be better than the Project 9 (?) arm I guess you have on that Music-hall but I have never actually side by sided them. I have compared the project 9 / 103 combo with the Rega 300 / 103 combo and the project was the winner.

This is one hell of a free service you guys are providing to Crown. Has any amp ever been tested to this degree in so many places in such a short period of time I wonder? Now - Shawn: for the non-techies - what do those results mean? You seem to be saying no distortion and then lots of distortion at the same time depending on how you measure. Which measurement more accurately reflects the listening experience?

No you dont need a high end rig to listen without excessive noise. Various possibilities: Your records havee been through the mill and are all shot. You have a problem with your setup - if all records are noisy this might be the problem. You need a new cartridge. With a record that is even semi decent louder passages of music should drown out any noise. The better the condition of the vinyl the lower the required level of music to drown out the noise. Vinyl in perfect condition means that you can't even hear the noise between the tracks.

Its been about 3 years since I listened to a record without using the outer-ring from clearaudio on my own system. Flattens anything I have. Alternatively there is a review of a furtech device to actually permanently flatten a record: http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200709.htm

In way over my head - but didn't Mark measure at 200 wpc as opposed to this which is at 1 watt(?) So this is an SS amp that measures better at low output than at high output - eureka? Time to throw them tube amps out of the window.

Well love it or hate it this does appear to be one of the more mysterious amps on the market. It measures well, it measures badly. The DSP is/is not a problem. It sounds great/dreadful. ??? Good news for Crown - it seems we are all going to have to buy one to decide for ourselves....

OK - the links I gave to Michael - I think I have posted these before which is why I didn't mention them in this thread: Cartridge Database - http://www.cartridgedb.com/ Linked Tonearm database - http://www.cartridgedb.com/default_arms.asp Database for manuals and such like - http://www.vinylengine.com/library.shtml Note - the last one you have to join to get access too - its free and utterly worth it - they have so many manuals for TT's you simply cannot find anywhere else.

Totally unable to find the apparent mass for this arm - even downloaded the manual and it isnt there. The good news, however, is that it supports cartridges from 7 to 19 grams - so we are covered for most of them. Have a play and see what happens.

This is the second time I am posting this - something went wrong - if 2 answers appear - apologies in advance: From the point of view of the resonant frequency - and only the resonant frequency - yes. From a practical point of view almost certainly not. Any given arm is designed to work with a given range of cartridge masses. In this case that range is from 4 to 9 grams. You would therefore need to get a 3rd party counterweight to be able to get the thing to balance in the first place. That aside - we would now be well outside the design specs for the arm and other issues would probably arise with the arm's suspension, bearing stresses and so on. I have no idea how it would work- I suspect badly.

Yes - from a resonant frequency point of view - no in the real world. The problem is that any given arm is designed to work with a range of cartrdige weights (masses more properly) and this one supports a range of 4 to 9 grams. Even if you could get it to counterbalance properly (with a third party counterweight if there was one) you would be way outside the design specs for the arm suspension / bearings etc. In other words - heaven only knows how it would behave. Badly would be my guess.

Interesting Kev - are you sure it was the Trio's you have heard and not the Duo's? I only ask as your reference to bass integration is spot on for the Duo's (with normal woofers) but for the Trio's - which are horn-loaded I found the integration to be perfect - all the way down to the separate horn loaded subs. I am not saying they are perfect speakers, however. I did detect a slight learness in the mid-range which might be down to speaker design / room or driving electronics - not sure - but it would be a cause for concern for me were I serious about them. Gotta say that in this company the Westminsters are a bargain and a half. I have serveral friends with various of the larger Tannoy's (GKF's, Westminsters and a York minster - I think) and they are truely excellent speakers. Anyway - would have to win the lottery several times to even consider any of this stuff - not the least because I would need a way larger room to accomodate them.

Just to re-iterate what others have said the SME 3009 Series 2 improved arm (the curved version - not the straight arm) is 9.5 grams apparent mass. This is not ideal for a Denon 103 with its relatively low compliance. I would suggest that the ideal match for such an arm would be a high compliance MM cartridge - a grado for example, or a Clearaudio Aurum or suchlike. There are many choices in the MM arena - what budget do you have in mind?

Talk about not what I was expecting here.... I anticipated a complete rebuttal of Mark's non-assessment and a hundred technical reasons as to why what we all surmized from the technical stuff was off-base. Lovely surprise. If only all audio reviews could be this simple.....

The grand utopia's put an appearance in at every high end show in Athens. Personally they are not my cup of tea. I am not sure why - it is a bit like the Lamm amps for me - they dont quite do it either. You do need a huge room for these things but at this price I would seriously look at a pair of Avantegard Trios and some basshorns - imho they stomp all over the Grands....

Has always been my comment on SUBs ......... thought I was alone, or worse, I was wrong !!!!!!!!!!! We all thought we were alone, but, as it turns out, there are more of us than we thought. Right is right. And a not particuarly valuable - me too. No-one ever seems to remember I have a sub - till I switch it off.

Mark - that avatar's a big aggressive isn't it. I prefered the cute little dog you used to have.

Dave, We are largely on the same page I am sure. I didn't set out to be picky - its just that I managed to achieve a given quality of sound in a certain way and am left scratching my head as to how to achieve this another way. I may beat the vinyl drum ad nauseam - but not through a previously held religious conviction. I would ADORE it if I could package up all these recordings into an easy to use digital form that allowed me to save my vinyl records for posterity - if not for best. When things are less tight financially I will be having another run at digital along the lines of a previous thread - ripping my vinyl at a higher than 44.1/16 level and then playing them back from some kind of computerized system. If it works I will be bragging all about it on this forum. Hope reigns eternal.

Last night I was alone at home and listened to 10cc Live and let live - a live recording from the Hammersmith Palace. Yup - all the applause was upfront and with the music - but spreading out a fair bit from the main speakers. Volume was pretty intense by my standards - dont know how much - but the volume control was at 3 o'clock. Anyway - it got me up and playing an air guitar - so I guess it worked for me. The layout of the band and the sonics certainly gave me the impression of being there - the applause diminished it a touch - but as that ain't really part of the music I hardly felt like I was being let down. Now if I thought that I could get the same quality for the music reproduction as I enjoyed there AND properly placement of sound in 3d space then that is something I would look at. I have just never found that combo....

Similar experiences here. Went CD, went DVD, went surround, went SACD, went vinyl, sold surround, went 2 channel only. Just enjoy it more. I don think it was a setup issue. For me it was merely that the soundtracks that really used the sub and surround effects kinda lost out on the background music that is more important to me. I am fairly sure my sub plays back as it is supposed to - its just that I dont need that much bass - whatever the originating sound engineers thought. For movies with a good music score we use the stereo. For movies with really big bangs we use the TV speakers to avoid them. Having a sub in my 2 channel setup, it is as bad for the boom as having it surround sound. I never minded applause coming from the front - who listens for the applause anyway? I know when I am impressed without it.