001
-
Posts
1657 -
Joined
Content Type
Forums
Events
Gallery
Posts posted by 001
-
-
19 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
So which is it? Capacitors sound different and you can easily hear it, or the difference is like power cords and wire which differences are largely imagined? I personally don’t see a valid comparison between different capacitor types and wire.
Voltage relates to transfer function and amplitude response. When Roy says it changes the voltage curves, he’s not being “ambiguous”.
which is it?? never claimed i could easily hear cap differences, sorry if it came across like that. for the few new caps ive compared i didnt hear a major difference, the difference i heard was on 25+ year old stock caps vs budget PP caps. i mentioned i've had original chorus2 & forte/2 & others that sounded fine, didnt feel a need to replace them. but on a couple other klipsch ive had the caps were clearly "bad" because the speakers sounded like crap, dull muffled mid/tweets, i asked for others to confirm tweet/mid ohm readings to know the drivers werent bad before i replaced the caps. changed to budget PP caps that instantly fixed the problem & to me they sounded slightly better than original chorus 2 i had at the time on brief comparisons. placebo? maybe. but same room same system switched on A/B channels. were the caps in the originals that sounded ok on their way out of spec? i will never know that, but i liked what i heard on the recapped ones & didnt notice any overly brightness then or today 5 years later.
wasnt comparing wire types to capacitors, it was a hypothetical question. most people including PWK say wire is wire & lamp cord is all thats needed, ive had all kinds of mid range wires over the years, 16awg RCA walmart type, monster cable 12awg (for longer runs) some other brands of 10awg for car audio high power subs i had & many other average brands that i have used over the years on different systems, never heard any noticeable differences. the hypothetical questions was if you cant hear the slight difference of voltage curve from a PP cap to a PE cap, which the average person probably cant or at least not reliably, then is this voltage curve really that big of a deal to the average person with some fortes & a mid-fi receiver/integrated? im not talking crazy expensive networks or K-horns with upgraded mids & tweets etc.
just saying "it will change the voltage curve" without any further explanation or details of what that means for what we will hear is kind of ambiguous, so is, "some people just dont get it?" you said yourself you need a decoder ring to understand those comments. is it really too much to ask for an explanation on what that means? apparently so.
-
22 hours ago, Racer X said:
It's never a big deal until it is. Like most every other new idea or mod I've stumbled across, was very skeptical at first, then begrudingly gave it a try to see what all the fuss was about, then regretted not trying earlier.
Following is a short list of things I've had to modify my thinking about: Tube amps, Analog always, MP3s, dynamic range expanders, caps, caps, and more caps, crossover changes, variable L-pads, power line conditioning, and every single wire in my system, including power cords for my amps.
Your mileage may vary....
agreed. i havent changed as many things as you mentioned, mainly because using average cables, wires & even just good ol mid-fi solid state gear has always sounded very good to me at my budget. i could buy expensive things or tube amps etc, but for mostly rock & roll or modern alt rock & listening louder than the average guy with good strong bass, from what ive heard the average tube amp isnt the best for that, or at least not a budget friendly one, & i cant talk myself into buying a tube amp that costs thousands of dollars then pay hundreds of dollars for speaker wire or RCA cables etc that i probably cant pick out on a blind A-B test. ive heard many high dollar systems using fancy wires at friends or audio stores that didnt sound any better than what i have here, some were noticeably worse.
for the power cords or power line conditioning etc, im sure theres some improvement to be had with a conditioner, but paying hundreds of dollars for a power cord when the house has standard 12-14awg romax wire doesnt make much sense... & again, what little improvement in sound, or not, is just not worth the price to me. same for caps so far, i dont see (or hear) any benefit to paying $60 for a 3uf sonicap vs a dayton or erse etc for a few bucks a piece, im guessing that applies to jem PE caps too that are like $10ea vs another brand PE cap that costs .25-.50 & could possibly be of better quality.
mileage does vary with these things, but i try to keep things in perspective & always question the overpriced hype that can happen in the audio world.
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, jjptkd said:
I've had a number of Chorus II crossovers rebuilt by Crites over the years even bought the drop in replacements. I noticed a difference in sound each time, they got brighter and clearer sounding, was under the impression this was because the old caps were failing and rolling off the high end so I just wasn't used to hearing them as they were supposed to sound. I would be curious to try the JEM caps if I ever have another set rebuilt-- it would be really nice to get that extra clarity without the added brightness.
to most people, brighter & more so clearer is an improvement. but too bright is not good.
ive said it before & will say it again, i have no dog in this fight, im open to learning new things & would love to have these cap questions answered in terms that the average hobbyist can understand. i post these comments/questions on threads that have usually ran their course but the subject comes up, might be best to start a new thread so anyone willing or capable can address them?
i would also be curious to hear jem caps compared to PP caps, i guess the only option thus far is to buy jem (or another PE cap) & compare them for myself...
-
1
-
-
19 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
Most of your questions have been answered, just not to your satisfaction.
I don't remember it that way. What most people used to do was complain about how the midrange was too bright. Enter the ALK Universal. This allowed people to dial it down without having to deal with changing parts. Al used the nice caps because people wanted them, but he always thought it was extravagant waste. Others just knocked 3dB off of the midrange by dropping down a tap and changing the capacitor value. Not everyone liked that forward midrange. Now, when you knock it back, you've created some space you can move around in and using a very low ESR capacitor isn't that big of a deal -- though all of this does change what Klipsch intended.
After I bought my Klipschorns and started modding them, I built a lot of different networks with a lot of different parts. I didn't like the GE cans and I definitely didn't like the Sonicaps when I tried them. Even after adjusting for the brightness, I found the sound thin and two dimensional. At some point I tried Jensen paper in oils, and stayed there, well, I think until I sold them. I did a lot of Jensen builds back then.
Most people can't afford to try a lot of different networks. They pick one and tend to stick with it, and most aren't nearly as critical as someone like me. People will generally prefer ANYTHING new to the sound of a 40 year old failing network.
its not a satisfaction issue, i haven't seen any answers to the questions. you said they were answered on one of those past threads too & i asked for a link to the answers or where these questions have been addressed, didnt get any reply. also asked chief when he quoted me on one of those threads & said he'd try to answer... i said thank you & posted a shortened version of the questions, didnt get any reply & have only seen the ambiguous "it will change the voltage curve" on older threads. the silence was pretty clear so i gave up.
the positive crites reviews & comments ive read are mostly for the extended heritage models or KGs, KLFs etc, but many heritage models also got crites/sonicap caps, from what ive read over the years on here or other forums or FB groups was mostly positive or they didnt hear any change at all. i understand knocking the mid back ~3db offsets changes in ESR, but the comments i see are not doing that, vast majority of people are very happy with crites provided caps regardless of models. some members here or people out there even use basic dayton PP caps & are very happy with the results/sound on all kinds of models even the pro KP's.
ive never tried sonicaps but have heard a set of fortes with them, not being able to compare to anything, i thought they sounded great, & i owned stock fortes at the time that also sounded good. the majority of others arent hearing this difference in sound using PP caps.
i agree most people cant afford nor have a desire to try different networks or caps, also agree that most people aren't as critical as someone like yourself that has been building crossovers for decades.. or an engineer that might see a miniscule difference with super sensitive test equipment. its kinda like speaker wire or power cords, most people will never be able to tell the difference, so if you cant hear it, is it really that big of a deal?
-
1
-
-
i doubt the...
-
thanks for the reply, a lot of stuff gets posted on here that may or may not be true. captain also claimed the twisted wires in one members chorus were hurting the sound because they were twisted, i mentioned some brands do that on purpose, then you identified the wires as high dollar quality wires. the film caps not going bad was also a claim ive heard more than once, i stated my experience with the caps in my chorus 2 sounding horrible, changed to the budget PP caps i use in many other speakers & they sound excellent, night & day improvement. & ive owned 2 other pairs of chorus2 with originals caps that sounded fine, the recapped ones sounded slightly better in the mid & treble range when A-B in same room, same system. cant say i noticed any voltage curve change in the sound on any klipsch or other brands of speakers ive recapped, but then again my ears arent sensitive measuring equipment.
another polyester type with same value- i agree it should be OK to use similar type PE caps, i asked about comparing 2 similar types of PE caps that should have very close ESR & tolerances, even mentioned a specific brand as an example that claims they use highest quality film but are far cheaper price than the authorized ones... no answer to that or the other cap related questions i asked awhile back.
i cant answer why that was said about woofer shunt caps, but crites was very specific that film caps arent needed in the woofer shunt circuit because its not in the signal path. makes sense, but also makes sense that out of spec lytics for the woofer can let some unwanted freq through to the woofers.
i think the whole jem/stock vs PP cap thing has valid points on both sides. as ive said a few times, before jem caps were around, everyone raved about crites or other peoples work like yourself, ALK, etc for replacing low cost original caps that were considered to be of less quality or may have fallen out of spec after 25+ years. majority if not all the current people who use crites still say the same positive things. im all for learning & trying new things, but so far i have yet to hear this stated difference from using budget PP caps in the middle models of klipsch, never tried changing the caps in my AK3 or AA K-horn crossovers.
-
23 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
Who said "film caps never go bad"?
They're not exactly the same. The dielectric is the same but construction is different. Lead attachment is different too, which is probably the reason the older films caps are having some issues. Leads on the older caps were pressed on/in with a conductive paste and are prone to moisture creep and corrosion. Leads on most metallized caps these days are attached using an end spray and soldered/welded.
FYI, both the Chorus and Chorus II use an electrolytic for the midrange. I don't know about the Forte/ Forte II and all the others - it's been years since I've worked on any of them.
If Klipsch/Roy says capacitors sound different, I don't think I'm going to argue with that.
I sent the OP to JEM. I did it because he just wanted them back the way they were. People who think that way shouldn't get beat up for it. If someone wants something different, there are options for them too.
a few people on here have said film caps dont go bad or at least not in the 25-30 year time frames most go by or even wont go bad within our lifetime... captainbeefheart is the most recent one, he was very adamant that film caps rarely if ever go bad or fall out of spec on a recent thread about changing caps.
didnt say they were exactly the same, but they are supposed to be the same type/specs as original, which is why they are "authorized" & any other type or brand of cap will make the speakers no longer be klipsch speakers...
right, there is 1 electrolytic in the signal path of chorus, forgot about that. but no other models of this era use them in the signal path, or at least not fortes/2, quartet, or any of the KG's. changing the woofer shunt lytic has been said to affect the sound & some use film caps there because they said they could hear a difference. others like bob crites have said they wont affect the sound being they arent in the signal path for most other speakers. that is what i meant about changing the woofer electrolytic cap.
not arguing that caps can sound different, yourself & many others for years have said caps sound different & seeing some of the work youve done & the caps you use, im sure there are "better" quality/sounding caps than original.
nothing wrong with using original type/jem caps to keep things original, i have never beat anyone up over using jem or keeping original caps, i have even been open to using originals/jem if some of my questions would have been answered about PP vs PE caps or using other brands of PE caps that should have the same or very close ESR as originals so as to not change the voltage curve... but i gave up on getting any answers about that.
glad the OP is happy with his new caps.
-
2
-
-
21 hours ago, SonicSeeker said:
https://jemperformanceaudio.com/
I ordered from JEM and I don't know what brand they are.
Maybe someone else here knows.
just curious what you used, jem are the same type as the originals.
if you noticed that much of an improvement, then the whole "film caps never go bad" thing is incorrect. or it was just changing the electrolytics, but most say they wont change the sound since they're not in the signal path & only for the woofer dump section.
-
1
-
-
21 hours ago, SonicSeeker said:
The speakers sounded good before I changed the caps, maybe a little tizzy and thin if I am looking for something perceived to comment on.
They did not sound veiled to me. they also did not sound as good as I remembered my original Chorus sounding years ago.
I figured different room, amplifier, older ears etc..
Short answer they needed new caps.
They sound full crisp fast and tight and the bass is hitting me in the chest, they sound like I remember them now.
Love it.
what caps did you use?
-
23 hours ago, geoff. said:
@SonicSeeker, heat is a killer for capacitors. It is really easy to fry the capacitors if you leave the soldering iron on them too long. This knowledge is from personal experience, lol. Another poster had the humility to share his similar experience years ago too. If the iron doesn’t have enough watts it takes too long to work.
it's a good idea to use some type of heat sink when soldering caps, an alligator clip with some aluminum foil on the jaws will do fine, clamp it on the lead being soldered & it will absorb excess heat before damaging the cap.
"test it for ESR" - the average hobbyist probably doesnt have a meter that can test ESR, those can be rather expensive.
-
2 hours ago, geezin' said:
I cannot even view Farcebook anymore since I have no account. Oh well they won't get me to register no matter what.
most facebook market place ads/links are public, including this one, dont need an account to view them, but if theres no contact info you cant message the seller so kind of useless without an account.
have you considered setting up an account with a email you only use for junk mail or not your personal info? just a suggestion, lots of good deals on there for all kinds of stuff.
-
definitely mark all wires before removal. but to actually remove the crossovers is pretty easy, just remove the screws & the speaker terminal cup should come right out, with a little finagling, but should be easy to see how they come out.
-
1
-
-
looks like the captain is back in action... hope y'all got your amp issues sorted out.
-
3 hours ago, Schu said:
I use 303 on my car... it's wonderful. I am not sure about using it on Veneer, I tend to think not.
just a suggestion instead of car wax. myself & friends have been using it on real wood trim in cars or boats for 20+ years, never a single problem. for speakers, i would think applying very lightly sprayed on a rag first should be fine, it dries very fast to a streak free finish & theres no harsh chemicals in it to damage the veneer itself. but of course test a small corner on the bottom first. people have washed klipsch veneers with wet rags or even used pledge or murphys soap type crap on older klipsch & the veneers are ok, i hope the new models would be just as resilient.
-
1
-
-
On 8/11/2022 at 9:11 PM, carlthess40 said:
Use a car wax with UV protection
And make sure is a clear or as clear as possiblecar wax does have UV protectors but for a natural oiled wood finish im not sure its a good idea to put car wax on it. the other suggestions for covering the tops or full speaker with a sheet or other material & UV film for windows will work or at least greatly reduce sunlight exposure.
but for a product you can apply to them thats not a wax & wont harm the veneer, is a marine/auto product called 303 protectant, its used on all kinds of surfaces from vinyl/rubber to fiberglass & even wood veneers to protect from UV fading & damage. its always best to test any product on a small area on the bottom to be safe & only spray it lightly onto a clean rag, not directly on the speaker surface.
probably best to cover the speakers &/or put a film on the windows.
-
2
-
-
On 8/6/2022 at 4:46 PM, Pashco.Ceo said:
001, I guess you didn't clearly read my response, or I failed to communicate it clearly. So, let me make this perfectly clear so there's no misunderstanding. (As any good author would do.)
So, to reiterate. I see (now) what the author intended to say, but whoever wrote it (I'm assuming you?) should clearly see it can be taken another way and therefore rewrite it! If you cannot see the confusion, please ask, and I will be happy to show you. If you want, I will even rewrite it for you so no more confusion.
maybe you didnt clearly read my reply & explanation of what the rules mean & how they are worded? they are very clear & easy to understand.
you know what they say about assumptions, they are right in this case... the rules were written by klipsch forum administrators/moderators, which i am not nor ever implied i was, but to call them "idiots" because you cant understand what they wrote is rather comical if not insulting. i was just trying to help clarify the meaning of the rules which are very clearly written & easy to understand if you dont over analyse the wording. nobody wants or needs you to rewrite the rules or explain how you misunderstood them.
good luck with your sale
-
i have a nice kg sw, not quite ready to sell it yet but if you dont find one before that time i will let you know. these are nice passive subs that dont come up for sale very often.
-
1
-
-
murder by numbers sounds great at any volume, one of my favs. many other police songs are good too, walking on the moon, cant stand losing you, de do do do .
paul simon graceland album has many very well recorded songs too.
i think moray james was one of the first to suggest the extended port mod for chorus as well as adding 1.5-2oz of weight to the passive of chorus2 to extend the bass a little lower.
-
1
-
-
glws ,
-
ok i gotta ask... what does this "VIP" stand for? it's been used quite a few times lately but only thing ive ever heard VIP used for is "very important person" which doesnt work for any of the posts its been used in. is this some new fangled or made up meaning?
-
most want to go the other way sanding off the black paint to expose the wood grain veneer. but changing to black is very easy, just sand the cabinets lightly to get a even dull look to them (but not so much it breaks through the veneer) then repaint with a satin black paint, they are small enough that a spray paint will work if you know the basics of spray painting, or you can use a roller with traditional brush on paints. i have found that krylon satin black spray paint is a very close match to the original satin black klipsch used & goes on thin so it wont clog up the wood grain. or rustoleum or other brand of satin black brush on paint is good too but might be a little too glossy & goes on thicker so need to be careful to apply it thin. krylon satin black is very good quality paint, applies very evenly & dries fast, i have used it on all kinds of stuff from wood to metal automotive parts with excellent results.
-
1
-
-
unfortunately they/klipsch doesnt offer anything related to the cabinet vinyl/veneer. if they are peeling you will need to try & reglue those areas or do a full re-veneer.
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
PIO has higher ESR than polypropylene, which probably explains the choice to use Mylars when the PIOs were no longer widely available and affordable.
Roy never said polypropylenes are “bad”, he said if you use them you have to rebalance the network. They most definitely tip the balance up, and most everyone hears this pretty easily.
that makes sense, but wont they change the voltage curve to some extent on older speakers that didnt use mylar caps? have they been tested & compared to know this? strange that modern mylar caps would be so similar in all aspects for older klipsch speakers.
"bad" was a general term, its been said many time that using PP caps will change things so much that it will hurt the sound, i equate that to being bad. before jem caps were available/authorized, 99% of people raved about crites or other higher end PP caps in these speakers, without "rebalancing" the network... & the majority still do outside of this forum.
its pretty clear that asking specific questions about capacitors is now frowned upon. just trying to learn something more than my ears tell me.
-
1
-
-
another legit cap question... if these speakers are from the 1960's & used paper in oil caps, how are modern polyester caps going to be the same specs for ESR or voltage curve etc? if changing to polypropylene caps will mess with the original voltage curve & sonic signature of all klipsch speakers, wont using modern mylar caps change these things too on speakers that didnt originally use mylar caps? or are modern mylar caps the same as 60+ year old PIO caps?
this whole capacitor thing is getting hard to follow, apparently modern jem mylar caps will work for all other types or eras of klipsch speakers/caps. but all PP caps are bad .. mmm k.
Removing crossovers Chorus I ?
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
i have seen most of the back & forth comments... ive also seen your FB page comments about things like this & some on this forum which i agree 100% with... probably best i dont repeat them here. sounds like maybe you've changed your tune on some of that recently?
i have tried googling some capacitor/crossover info, some is helpful but most is like ive said, its all greek to the average guy. just like trying to explain internal combustion engines or any type of mechanical aspects of cars, unless you dumb it down for people that dont have a clue its almost worthless.