Dave A
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Posts posted by Dave A
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1 hour ago, jimjimbo said:
Dave, isn't it great how posts can be edited/manipulated to fit the level of misinformation that is so prevalent here? Yea, WOW is right.
Yeah I am not certain what is gained by doing that. Debating ideas is fine but rewrites changing what was actually said is not.
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1 hour ago, jimjimbo said:
These are not rare, nor do they have any significant historical value. I have seen many of these crossovers with the same capacitors. "Reasonably well" is not what you want. Technology has advanced just a bit in the last 60 years.
100% correct. I would say they are getting harder to find though as most of us immediately throw those old caps out and replace with good caps. I have sold some on EBay and have no idea why anyone would want them. I never asked I just felt fortunate someone wanted to buy those dog barkers.
Regarding the idea "one can see the zener diodes ,so , this could be a very early version of the AA which was introduced in July 1971 " Every AA crossover had those from beginning to end so this does not indicate "early" AA crossovers. The caps sure do though.
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I use a B&K 885 set to 1000hz. I bought this one because it was the same one Bob Crites used for cap measurements. Of course he also could measure the output of the whole crossover with other equipment which I do not have. I figure I am not guessing with poor equipment at what is going on. If I want I can also measure inductance accurately and resistance also. While I may not be able to judge the aggregate of a whole crossover at once I can assess each component and if the values are correct I make the assumption the crossover is correct or at least according to OEM schematic specs correct.
In any case back to the idea of recapping there is no doubt in my mind and practical experience there is a real benefit for the OP to recqp.
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Short of having test equipment to measure things with, which would be probably 95% of speaker owners, there are some general things you can figure on. I never measure capacitance and ESR on old crossovers anymore and especially on ones that old. The reason for that is that I used to do that until I concluded there were so few worth saving it was not worth it. And if say perhaps 90% of the caps measured bad why try to save one that was OK when the rejection rate indicated they would soon be bad too. Capacitance may be OK but the ESR on those will be right through the roof. I have recapped probably over 200 sets of Klipsch vintage speakers now and all show at least some improvement to dramatic improvement to my ear. I have never measured a whole crossovers output and only measure individual capacitors as they are the only components that drift over time. Jem as mentioned or Crites both have capacitors. I order from Parts Express and find that Audyn's work and are reasonably priced and do the work myself. Yes I am solidly in the replace camp.
Don't throw away those old capacitors. They have some collector value and you can sell them as is on EBay and recoup some recap cost.
Check the coil screw and make sure they did not stick a steel one in there. Brass or Stainless Steel only or you change the coil value from the specified one. Loosen and re-tighten all barrier strip screws and while you are in there anyway check your drives crimp connectors for tight fit. Check screws holding drivers on to be snug.
Something else I have started doing is to use two caps in place of one. For the 13uf for instance perhaps a 5uf and an 8uf or any other combination that adds up to the right value gives me measurably lower ESR than a straight single 13uf cap would and those 13uf caps are not common or cheap when you find them. I do the same thing with the 2uf caps even though they are easy to find for the same reason.
The idea of healthy caps that old is something I have never found data on. There is no information on allowable ESR for instance nor is there any info on allowable tolerance variation before a part should be rejected according to non existent tolerance specs on those old crossovers. For that reason I try to stay very close to the specs as listed on schematics and figure that is the ideal goal the designer had in mind for correct sound. 50 year old caps may give a sound some like but it is for sure not the sound the speaker started out with. I have yet to see anyone take new caps out and stick 50 years old caps back in because they sound better.
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On 11/21/2021 at 6:01 AM, chassell said:
Where in Nashville are you? I'd love to hear those!
Feeding the monster are we?
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Asking for informed opinions is a form of getting indicators as to which speakers you need to go listen to in person. Fortunately with most Klipsch speakers once you get to the Heresy level and up if you decide you are not happy and want something else you can at least get your money back out if you bought used. If you are wanting to buy new I would not do so unless I could hear some in person in someones home. Ask on the forum for people who have what you are interested in and I bet you find some to listen to a lot closer. Additional bonus is if their system is really sweet you get to see how they did it.
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4 minutes ago, RandyH said:
so let me understand , you're saying that online sellers like Crites - Midwest speakers - Simply Speakers , SS audio , Ebay , Amazon ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,actually sell ,Aftermarket Made in China TI diaphragms , that sound better than the Klipsch TI diaphragms found in the klipsch Cinema Professional Series , plus the Cornwall III -Heresy III - Heresy IV -Forte III -Forte IV ,and even the Mighty Cornwall IV , 1 of the most Advanced Speakers in the Industry , c'mon , let's be serious -
Do you know for sure where the Klipsch Ti diaphragms are made? Do you know for a fact the Klipsch diaphragms are not made in China too?
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A few years ago there were some Klipsch drones made that were approved for the Forte II. However they were the new style with the rubber surround and not the cloth accordion surround. I ordered one and was a bit dismayed to see this as I had no idea they were built with that rubber stuff. It really did not look right with the old accordion surround and I never ordered another one since then. I have no idea if they are still available though. Simply Speakers makes a passive recone kit which is not to hard to do. Just make sure you take the weight out of the old drone and put it in the new one. My problem with reconing anymore is trusting sellers to actually have the correct material on hand to truly duplicate OEM specs.
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5 hours ago, dtel said:
True, I remember hearing a large horn in a small room makes it easier for the horn to control the room...that general idea anyway.
Interesting thought. Since large horns are mainly the domain of pro speakers they lend themselves well to something I have noticed with pro gear. They have an inherent ability to overwhelm bad acoustic environments better than regular home owner gear.
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16 minutes ago, drewogatory said:
Man, they look great. I wish they put those handles on the consumer line as well. Just make em fancy FFS.
You can buy handles. You can even buy Klipsch handles on EBay at times. Once you cut them in though unless they are LSI's you screw the value up.
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On 11/16/2021 at 11:08 PM, RandyH said:
2 separate 2-channel rooms , the CW for rock music , the LS for Jazz or Classical , the Heresy acts like a Studio monitor giving you that clear HF and detailed Mids and mellow bass tones to aid the bigger speaker , and way less distortion -
So how are they powered? Sounds like an unusual setup and I would like particulars on what you did and why you did it.
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1 minute ago, captainbeefheart said:
You are twisting the facts to make a completely different argument.
I am saying which is fact that the elephant in the room that is almost never discussed is the fact that loudspeaker distortions are magnitudes greater than anything else in the chain which is why many professionals will give the good advice of spend the majorit of your budget and efforts on picking the right loudspeaker, then let the rest fall inline. I never said the electronics make no difference, I am saying their differences will be a magnitude lower in sound performance. So first get your speakers picked as this will be the largest contributing factor on the overall sound of the system and then later improve upon the rest of the chain as they make less of an impact on sound quality.
https://audioxpress.com/article/Measurement-and-Perception-of-Regular-Loudspeaker-Distortion
Yeah he is parsing words that don't address what you were saying. You limit your speakers and a really great amp will just make mediocre even more obvious and not fix or help help the speaker problem. 100% agree with you. This idea is precisely why I built the Super MWM's.
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1 minute ago, Shakeydeal said:
So you are saying a 5 channel receiver from Best Buy will sound as good as my Allnic tube integrated amplifier?
Hmmm, Were you reading the same response as I did? CBH is talking speakers and you are talking amps.
4 minutes ago, babadono said:I am in the second group. The freedom from excessive IM distortion and the dynamics that horns are capable of just do it for me.
Darned right and there is no substitute for a good horn and driver combo.
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19 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:
I agree with this. But many aren't using the speakers to their full (or even close) capability. Wouldn't you rather have 98% of the performance than 68%? And I guarantee you that better source components and amplification are going to give you more of what the speaker is capable of.
Funny you mention this. Many will never hear the speakers to their best potential because they seek expensive signature sounds that interpret how things "should" be. I might use PEQ's and DSP at times but past that the EQ is flat all the way and I strive for live sound like I was there. I don't quibble with real improvements but tiny expensive incremental ones or signature sounds do not appeal to me.
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3 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:
I'm not sure I'd completely agree with that sentiment. Although the loudspeaker is very important, the source and amplification are almost neck and neck with speakers. I have heard some amps with horns and my conclusion was if that was the only amp available, I would be seeking out a different speaker. Fast forward to a different amplifier and the sound is transformed.
Now I won't say that speaker cables and interconnects will make or break a system. But when you get all the other pieces of the puzzle right, they are the icing on the cake and allow you to hear better what you paid for.
Shakey
I think speakers are the most important part as you can't make speakers sound any better than they are capable of. I think a number of people are not quite happy with their sound and figure it is anything but the speakers and off down the tinker road they go. I can testify to different amps sound different and so do PC's if you are using them for sound source. But you can't fix speakers that are fundamentally lacking in the sound you are seeking. I see people agonize over getting that last 5% of fidelity out of their speakers with lots of time and money and infinitesimal and expensive tweeks. If 95% does not work for me on a set of speakers I am looking for a different set of speakers that won't require all that hassle and money to get to my goal.
There can be fun in fiddling with things and I am certainly a proponent of that. If I have to sit there and struggle to hear improvement from my latest tweak I figure it was not worth it. Cables fall into that category and I have had repeat visitors tell me I need blah blah cables. Fine I say, bring yours next time and lets see. They never bring them.
Sitting in Roy's class two years ago listening to speakers and if I remember right he had an old DX38 + a four channel QSC theater amp and wires strewn about on the floor. I don't remember if there was other gear in the audio stream but I do remember seeing these and thinking simpler is better.
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I think cable management is key. As my visitors know I pay careful attention to how the 12g zip cord is strewn about the concrete floor and the loops crossing each other have been carefully calculated. They all agree the resulting sound is superlative.
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21 minutes ago, zeagan said:
It's measurable but you really only hear it without the EQ in the "I can listen to one song before OSHA shows up and shoves plugs in my ears" volume levels.
Ha ha I figured as much. The ones I have done this way sounded very good past any level I was willing to subject myself to. I am paying the price, as you will more than likely, for too many db's in work and speaker muscle flexing. It creeps up on you.
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14 minutes ago, -js- said:
yes - in the terms of purchase, pick up is specified
"All items must be picked up and paid for on NOVEMBER 29, 2021 10:00am-4:00pm"
Not a problem with that kind of advance notice.
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3 hours ago, -js- said:
I might need to chat you up to talk about this... to grab that pair, assuming a reasonable reserve value, a weekend pickup would certainly be easier to plan. but, at a good price, you know, we sometimes surprise ourselves at what we can manage to pull off.
6 hour window? Well with this much advance notice no problem. I am not at all interested in KHorns but I will help someone who is. Keep me posted.
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21 minutes ago, Madman1 said:
Well, I was hoping to come a while back, then I got smacked with the China/Fauci virus!! Whoops! 😬, I probably shouldn’t say that here I might get canceled.
I want to get up there, I’m sure you have some fun things I need/want.Stop in any time just let me know ahead of time and we are never shut down for the Fauci virus.
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Ha Ha reserve not met! Only an auction after you pay at least what the owner wants. In this day and time of crazy prices who knows what they will go for.
I am not far away if someone wants to bid and have them stored for a while before they pick them up. Not forever mind you but a decent period of time.
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20 hours ago, zeagan said:
Little update to these guys, I have tried a few different measurements and settings and enjoyed most of them. However the settings I'm settled on lately that sound the best to my ear are fairly simple. They're the LS bass bin EQ settings that Roy released ages ago for use with the K69-A and K510 but with the 148Hz resonance mitigation moved to 174Hz and tamed a little as the 1" bass bin walls resonate a little higher and a little less aggressively. For the HF horn I'm simply using the three PEQ settings specified in the Klipsch Cinema Active settings document for the KPT-904-HF along with a lo-shelf to bring down the sub-2kHz response by 6dB and a hi-shelf to boost over 13kHz by 13dB. Measurements to come, but honestly, if they don't measure flat, the curve is what my ears like.
You must really be cranking these up to get any noticeable resonance from 25mmBB. Now you can measure something but do you hear it?
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On 11/13/2021 at 6:31 AM, Madman1 said:
Hey Dave,
Did you ever get any training on rew? Minidsp is pretty easy to set up and use but Rew just confused the crap out of me and I never learned how to use it to tweak the dsp settings. ChrisA helped a lot and was very generous with his time, but I didn’t know what I was doing, tapped out and went back to passive. Would love to get dsp and rew going on another project but haven’t decided exactly where I’m going with that.
No I have not. It is on the list of things to do starting in a couple of months or so. When are you going to be up here again?
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13 hours ago, Marvel said:
Look at this Radian... that graph looks pretty smooth. The berylium is about $500 or so more per driver... most of theirs come in 8 or 16 ohms.
Never fiddled with beryllium as I figured it was too much money for what you would get. Of the three horn drivers I have been playing with most lately, the DE-10, DE-120 and Faital HF145R, they all have polymer diaphragms and sound very good and don't break the bank. Even the DCX-464 coaxial driver I have started fiddling with is polymer.
Wow factor fading – now looking to upgrade
in Talkin' Tubes
Posted
Well you already have WAF for Heresy's so why not go listen to a set of Heresy 4's. They are good speakers.