OTL

Thank you so much for the reply... Turns out it was the fuse after all.

I'm about to pick up a replacement fuse from Radioshack, but can anyone tell me if I need a fast acting or a slow blow one? It doesn't specify on the inside as to which one the unit takes.

Hello, my Klipsch 4.1's developed this problem about a year ago following a power outage where they will not come on unless disconnected from the wall outlet for a few days. Recently they have gotten worse and won't power up unless unplugged for a week at a time. These symtoms are not unlike a power supply on its last legs, but I'm hoping this is not the case here. Any suggestions to get me on the right track would be appreciated. BTW, my warranty has expired so I'll be doing any repairs with my own hands if possible.

quote: - Tighter bass. Agreed, but not as loud or deep. If you're going to get boomy bass, get the louder, deeper boomy bass. Mark measured the Klipsch sub getting down slightly lower. quote: - Non-congested midrange. Listen to a good pair of speakers, then come and say that. More than I can post here. quote: - Airy, extended highs. Airy, no, very very far from airy. Possibly airier, but then again, I've read a lot to say the high end of the z-560 is almost as good. Haven't heard a well setup z-560. Extended, I'll give you that, the small advantage to a tweeter. No, having good hearing to 21khz and beyond I haven't heard a single driver system that sounded right. They don't convey the texture or sheen of the high end like a good tweeter. quote: - Dynamic range. No, the z-560s are louder Dynamic range = The ratio between the quietest and loudest portions on the music signal. quote: - Better imaging. No, I can't imagine hardly anything having worse imaging than the pros, and this again contradicts everything I've read about the z-560. Listen for yourself. The ones on audition had the upper bass creeping into the midrange. Imaging was a smeared mess. I'll take the flat distinguisable placement of the Pro's.

quote: And you saw from my example with the RB-5s vs. the Tablettes that I'm spot on. Next... If you don't see the flawed logic in pitting speaker A against speaker B at twice the price you're truly diluted. To then conclude that the design philosophy speaker A utilizes is inferior and all such products using a remotely similar approach are thusly inferior is blasphemy as best. quote: Of course you immediately waffled and said that I was going too upscale in a comparison with the Tablettes but I expected that - when confronted with evidence, some folks do have a tendency to run for cover. Evidence. Evidence your thought process isn't a rational one. quote: Nooo, not quite. You see, I auditioned the original Klipschorns years ago and that's what formed my original opinion. They were up against a set of KEF 105s and a set of Maggies and they couldn't measure up. I haven't heard Khorns so I'm not about to make assumptions. However has it ever occurred to you significant advances may have been made in the last five decades in regards to horns? Those Avantgardes are ready to obliterate your preconceived notions of what a horn is capable of. All you need to do is put aside this deep seeded personal vendetta for a moment and experience for yourself. The "up front" perspective of Klipsch speakers is a conscious and intentional decision on their part. It is not a limitation of horns. quote: Now we get to the beginning of the waffling I mentioned above, namely the ProAc Tablette series. Heck, Polk does a better job when it comes to that. Different, not better. But then again only an open minded individual could admit it. quote: Therein lies the tale - a department store. I could say that folks who base their opinions of a system on the butchered environment in a department store and then attempt to pontificate on that drawbacks of that line thereafter are at best foolish and at worst absurd or fraudulent but that would be resorting to your tactics. You want to argue this to infinity no matter what anyone says. It's called denial. quote: First, placement matters and you obviously didn't do a good job. How can I say this? Other listeners (dvdvideo, Mr. ears, dvisic, Brad Estes, etc.) don't experience what you're climing to have heard. In fact, Audio-guru hears that same "one-noteyness" on the Klipsch 4.1s. When that many disparate people (I'm not even including myself in the mix) differ with you on all points, it's pretty obvious that either a) you did something wrong in the placement or you're blowing smoke. Since you say you've heard them and the that forms the basis of your allegations, I must conclude a). These people have never gone into detail so I'll call your bluff. There are others out there with similar findings as mine, all you have to do is look. I could have purchased everything in the store and auditioned at home and you stil wouldn't be satisfied. The systems were setup identical, and only the Monsoon's exhibited these traits. It's a fundamental problem with the high crossover, not anything on my (or the stores) part. Audio Guru isn't exactly in mirroring your image of the Klipsch 4.1's. He makes no illusions to how big a role placement plays with the sub, and neither does the level headed Mark Muschett. Thoroughly re-read Mark's PM 4.1 and Z560 review again, apparently it didn't all sink in. quote: To paint a given set of products as superior where they are average at best is misleading and spurious. Now we've reverted to outright lies. I've voiced my preference of the PM 4.1's for DVD's and games but never lauded them as superior. I recall describing them as garbage for music. quote: If you'd set up the Monsoon correctly you'd see where your nice theories fall down. What they've done is create a localized imaging space that engineered to fit in a desktop environment. Thank you, you just reaffirmed my stance that a truly transparent soundstage won't fit into a desktop environment. quote: Now I can understand why you say that being a Klipsch fan Not a Klipsch fan, but an unbiased individual that can acknowledge a decent product when he hears one. I don't care what design approach a product entails as long as the end result is good sound. quote: Either way, try as you will to say otherwise, far too many actual users have experienced the contrary and and thus have debunked your statements. Reality check: You're the lone person debunking my statements in their entirety. These juvenile message boards you frequent aren't exactly the place to find qualified and insightful people anyhow. I would have greatly preferred this discussion taken place on www.audioasylum.com or similar forum inhabited by experienced enthusiasts, and perhaps we could have received feedback from the men behind the equipment themselves. quote: Thus you can say what you will here on this site where you are in the company of fellow Pro Media owners and that's OK, but of course when you stray out into the real world domain and do that, all I'll have to do is what I've always done: simply point folks to the contrary information, have them audition for themselves and expose the ersatz for what it is. I've found it most effective in shedding clear light on a given issue. Please, I'm not the one hiding behind kiddie BB's to brainwash or scare off the uninitiated with my brand of tainted rhetoric. I would've had this discussion take place on a grown up board if I had the choice. I have no brand to push or cut down. I have no "agenda" other than instilling some sense of open mindedness and defending a decent product against all out assault. quote: have them audition for themselves and expose the ersatz for what it is. Couldn't agree more. Go in with an open book and form your own conclusions. If you'd like to carry on such debates in the future lets take it to www.audioasylum.com where neither of us have formed alliances and we can have some educated replies. Regards. This message has been edited by OTL on 05-17-2002 at 03:50 AM

quote: I'd be careful of taking potshots at people - you never know who might be listening. As it is, let me caution you to NOT put words in my mouth. I'm not putting words in anyones mouth. Instead I'm trying to shed some light on these fruitless comments and expose you for the biased fraud you are. You did type the following tidbit didn't you? quote: there is no horn-loaded speaker in existence that can accurately reproduce silky highs and a detailed and well-imaged soundstage. Horns, even the hybrid horns that Klipsch chose to use in their satellites, shoot sound at you with all the finesse of a rocket launcher If that wasn't an outright condemnation of horns in general I don't know what is. Apparently your sole basis for this argument is merely auditions limited to the horn loaded Promedia's and reference series, and internet propaganda. As they say in the audio world if you haven't heard it your opinion don't mean **** . quote: in the face of Martin Logan and even ProAc, Klipsch's home line doesn't fare too well when drawing a detailed jazz soundstage. As an example, go listen to a set of RB-5 IIs playing Miles Davis or Boney James and then listen to the same track on one of the ProAc Tablette series - the difference in placement is unmistakable. Lets try to keep a level playing field. You're making comparisons to much more upscale products. Taken for what they are the RB5's image very well. quote: It doesn't appear that you've experienced too many multimedia systems then. How can I say this? Because I own one of the proofs that what you're saying isn't at all the case (the Monsoon MH-505s). Go out and actually properly audition some of the other alternatives and you'll have some first hand experience to work with. As I'll reiterate for the final time (because apparently yourself and Gluegun are suffering from a bout of amnesia), I've heard most of the Monsoon line (505, 702, 1000, 2000) under conditions as ideal as they're going to get in a department store, and was less than thrilled with the final result. The crossover isn't smooth. I was able to localize lower midrange and upper/midbass from the sub. This wasn't so obvious when keeping everything on the same shelf, but the loss of bass imaging was. When the subwoofer was placed on the floor the changeover was disparaging. The sats sounded spaced out and thin, lending an exaggerated image to everything. The 702, 1000, and 2000's midrange was dreadful - sharp and wiry. Even some of those pricy Martin Logans have trouble integrating the cone box woofers with their electrostatic transducers! I have nothing personally against Monsoon, I'm only describing what I hear. Frankly I'm not impressed with the musical performance of any PC speaker I've heard (note this doesn't include Videologic's or Swans). To incessantly rag on the Klipsch's flaws and turn a blind eye to the others is narrow minded and immature. quote: "The fact that you sit a few feet away makes a transparent soundstage impossible." In a word: Nonsense! You're living in a bubble if you think you'll get realistic imaging in a desktop environment. First off the speakers are too close to the wall, decreasing soundstage depth. Second the close proximity of the speakers to each other diminishes soundstage width. Ideal placement is at least 6 feet apart - try doing that on your computer desk. Then you literally sit on top of the damn things cheating yourself of holographic imaging that floats beyond the speakers and into the room itself. This message has been edited by OTL on 05-16-2002 at 11:14 AM

quote: OLT, imo they are very biased compared to most, but it is true that horn speakers seem to flaten the sound stage and imaging since they are compacting the sound What PC speaker doesn't? You guys need to lighten up and realize severe sonic compromises have to be made with these types of systems. The fact that you sit a few feet away makes a transparent soundstage impossible. Don't write off all horn speakers based on low end psuedo horn loaded garbage like the Promedia's. Well designed horns (and the Avantgardes are a shining example of this) are capable of awesome soundstaging. They'll eat Maggies or Martin Logans for lunch. Properly setup there is no trace of stereotypical bright or nasal horn sound. That's the last I'm going to say on this. Give some of the upper end a fair shake or your opinion is invalidated.

If you read the quotes carefully he (Roj) is attacking horn speakers in general. This I find particularly offensive considering his (admitted) lack of experience with said speakers. That's what I'm taking issue with here. Some people expect way too much of crap box plastic $200 computer speakers with 120-200'ish crossovers. If I wanted audiophile sound on my PC I'd spend $2500-$3000 and do it right.

There's no reasoning with these guys (Roj). They hear one Horn speaker and they feel qualified to grossly generalize on all horn speakers. And frankly Gluegun with your constant quoting are encouraging more ignorant and inflammatory remarks. I guarantee an audition with some properly setup Avantgarde horns will be an enlightening experience at the very least.

quote: My response is z-560, I dont see any reason to get the promedias anymore. - Tighter bass. - Non-congested midrange. - Airy, extended highs. - Subwoofer level much more neutral. - Dynamic range. - Superior build quality. - Better imaging.

Atrocious spelling and grammar does wonders for ones credibility.

I recommend the Santa Cruz over the strident sounding Audigy.

The Logitech sub is most definitely not tighter than the Promedia 4.1 sub. I had the chance to listen to them both and the Klipsch had it over the Logitech save for outright exaggeration ability. I also had a problem with the tweeterless Z560, they simply don't soar as high or as open. If you have high frequency hearing loss they may be adequate. This message has been edited by OTL on 04-10-2002 at 09:20 AM

I've also heard both and prefer the tighter bass and more prominent highs of the Promedia's.

The Grado RS-1 is the most musical transducer on the planet and what every manufacturer should strive for.

FYI I never remotely pushed the speakers. With the Windows mixer at 75% and Wave 100% the loudest I had them was a hair under 50% for a very brief period. My normal listening level is about 20-30% with the sub almost as low as it goes.

Looks like I spoke too soon. 2 days after I posted this my amp went haywire. You know, distortion on the rear channels, the left rear speaker emitted very little sound, yada yada... Thankfully London Drugs was gracious enough to provide a replacement on the spot. This message has been edited by OTL on 02-03-2002 at 01:07 AM

Thanks guys, I'll give it a shot (the manager will think I'm nuts when I walk in once again).

So here I was all excited in anticipation of replacing the shady stock cables with some nice 14 gauge wire when I realized it didn't quite fit the Radioshack plugs. Would anyone be so kind as to direct me where to purchase such an item either in Canada or online?

The Z560 isn't a match for the Pro's. The sats are serviceable but it has the most offensive sub I've ever heard.

I've used mine daily since the date of purchase in early December and they've been the most reliable component of my computer.