jazzmessengers
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Posts posted by jazzmessengers
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7 minutes ago, Droogne said:
Well, I primarily started this topic to learn some more about horns and their specs/performance, but also to convince me of the K-402. While I'm discussing here in this topic I'm trying my hardest to find a way to buy the K-402 (contacted over 200 klipsch dealers in Europe, and I have found someone who knows someone who has a K-402 in Europe. Waiting for their contactinfo.).
What was the horn that came closest to the K-402?
I believe the largest SEOS horns, but even they don't have excellent control down to what K-402 can do.
There is another graph of "globe view" (looks like the earth viewed from the north pole on a globe, not sure what this sort of plot is called) of K-402 polars but I don't have it saved to this computer. @Chris A do you have it?
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In my opinion after doing a lot of searching there isn't anything commercially manufactured that is the equivalent or has similar performance to the K-402.
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Has anyone tried to do the crossover with Audiovero Acourate? It's software DSP that generates a convolution filter that you add to a convolution engine that would be in the software music player like JRiver, Foobar2000, etc.
A couple of links for those interested:
I suggest reading the bottom link on using it for a digital crossover after reading the first link.
There is also a very helpful Yahoo usergroups message group where the designer is very active.
I have heard it in a fully active system and was stunned at the difference in imaging and overall gain in coherence. Sort of switched me from being one of those guys that thought about the small things to the things that made huge eye opening differences.
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On 5/12/2017 at 2:06 PM, mark1101 said:
I can remember several years ago a forum member asked if he could come over and bring a 2 (two) wpc tube amp he had to try on my Klipschorns. I had Khorns at the time and said sure come over and we'll give it a try.
A friend was over that day and we had my Peach and VRDs cranking when this guy arrived with his little toy. Had been into it and enjoying the tunes.
We shut down and let him connect his little toy.
It did just what you guys are saying. It drove the Khorns...........but it was crap compared to what we had been listening to. While it was making some volume it wasn't anywhere near the sound stage, detail, and punch of the more powerful tube amps. In fact in the end I'd say it sucked and I would never have anything like that. But it did make volume, I'll give it that.
Just relating one experience with some low powered tubes after listening to some good tube amps with more power.
I also tried a couple of those little PWM (TRI-Path) amps. Same thing. They make volume and even have some decent clarity until they come apart at top end. But they are just cheap toys and don't compare in ANY way to something like a 60 WPC VRD in the sound stage, micro detail, and PUNCH.
I would love to get a hold of Pass first watt. I bet some of those do much better on Klipsch than the little 3 watt tube toys. I'd love to try one of those.
IME damping factor will also play a big role if these amps are being used full range. Where I find SET sounds good is 1) headphone amps and 2) active systems with the SET only driving midrange/treble horns with extreme sensitivity with flat and high impedance.
I would not use them with bass horns, even those extreme SETs like the 833 at 100 wpc since the damping factor won't match SS.
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7 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
OK, Mr. Advocate. I'm currently listening to the best sounding amp I've ever owned, tubes or SS.
It's a First Watt Aleph J which is class A single ended, all FET transistors. It tops out a 40 Watts per channel at 8 ohms........maybe a bit more at 4 ohms. It never clips.
How would you say it compares to SET amps if you've had them?
The last Pass amp I had was the Aleph 3 which was push pull and had feedback.
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3 hours ago, HPower said:
I know somebody that does.
Those look fantastic!
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On 2/22/2017 at 11:33 PM, AaronB123 said:
Absolutely amazing! They are extremely revealing though, I think even moreso than the K-horns. I'm not sure if everyone is aware or not but I use my computer as my main audio source and have a lot of mp3's that I use and I've found since getting these I'm going back and ripping everything in lossless wav format otherwise you can hear every imperfection. Well worth it though!
You should re-rip everything to lossless. Storage is so cheap these days that you should only be listening to music that is digitally identical to what is on the disc.
One other option for a digital crossover is AudioVero's Acourate. There is a Yahoo Groups forum you can request to join and the designer of the software is very active and helpful. Recording engineer MitchB wrote two detailed entries about it here and here.
(No affiliation with the software/designer)
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12 hours ago, hum4god said:
Hi
this looks like an interesting design and the kit makes it so much easier to put things together . i don't like building from scratch much anymore ...
i am very tempted to try it , the only thing i am wondering is if it might extend a little higher with a driver like the B&C 12PE32 ?
i need to reach 700hz to xover to my mid horn.
the 12PE32 might have a little less low end extension but that is what subs are for .
does anybody have some experience / measurements with different drivers ?
thanks
malcolm
I recall your sale of the Red Spade Audio synergy horns and various other midbass horns. What is your planned system now?
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21 hours ago, AaronB123 said:
This brings me to my next question, what kind of speaker wire do you guys use or recommend? Right now I am using some RCA stuff I picked up at radio shack years ago.
I like Mogami or Canare. Basically the same stuff they're wiring up recording/mastering studios with. Around $0.50 to $1 a foot.
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1 hour ago, AaronB123 said:
Oh wow, thank you that's very good to know. That actually makes me much more confident in the purchase. I just hope they are still available. It looks like those are pretty hard to find.
In the off chance they're sold I would trust Chris A that the TD-4001 will work fine. Those are IME much easier to come by, I used to see multiple pairs listed on Ebay nearly every week. You just need to do ask the right questions and make sure you're getting a non-abused pair. Like one other person posted, they are incredible sounding compression drivers.
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3 hours ago, Chris A said:
I personally don't know of any, unfortunately. I think the reason is their cost and perhaps weight (2x heavier than the 4002), not their performance.
Also with so many used 4002s that have floated by over the past couple of years, this has the effect of suppressing 4001 sales. I would assume that the EQ settings required for the 4001 would be extremely close to those required for the 4002, as has been mentioned elsewhere.
Chris
7 hours ago, jorjen said:I know they are not 402's but I ran TD-4001's in the 3-way Jube Clones I built with Fastlane Eliptrac 400's. There is just really something magical about the 4001's. I honestly do not think there is anything else quite like them. Well, I imagine the 4003's are pretty damn special. I miss my TAD's!
Thanks, I was going to give them a try, but it's always nice to hear if people had real world experience. I recently heard laurellhill's Jubilee setup as mentioned in the post here. Truly outstanding speakers that are now at the very top of my list of considerations. Active crossover version.
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On 2/14/2017 at 5:37 PM, Chris A said:
I bought them new from a third party in 2009. They weren't cheap then and that model (TD-4002) has since been discontinued by TAD due to the price rise and unavailability of source Neodymium magnet material. Most people would use the TD-4001s (Alnico magnets at 2x the overall weight of the 4002s) nowadays if they were looking to buy new.
From time to time, there are used TD-4002s that come up on the market, but I'd be careful. Many of these used drivers were in commercial applications where they were heavily driven and might have diaphragm damage or partially annealed magnets.
Chris
I believe I asked this another thread, are there any K-402 owners that are running TD-4001?
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I'd like to extend a thanks to laurelhill for letting me hear his Jubilee system. As I told him I was very impressed with the speakers. I would like to hear the setup at the Klipsch factory and speak to Roy in person. From everything I heard they are at the very top of my consideration list.
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On 2/6/2017 at 2:32 PM, Chris A said:
When you look at the above cumulative SPL vs. frequency plot for a typical music track, you might notice the difference in values from 70 Hz to 20 kHz - and they're about 50 dB different. This fits the empirically derived -5.1 dB/octave (-17 dB/decade) decrease in SPL. This occurs on every track that I've hand demastered--currently numbering about 10K.
When you think about this for a moment, it might create the insight that, in terms of power capabilities of any amplifier type, the high end can be boosted by 10 dB or more and you really don't see any real increase in load on the output terminals of the amplifier.
This should answer your question about using extremely low power amplifiers with the K-402 and 2 inch compression drivers (bi-amped). If you didn't have any issues with other horn-loaded loudspeakers, you're not going to have issues with the K-402/2" compression driver.
However, if you boost the opposite end of the spectrum relative to the high end (around 400-500 Hz) you will be able to measure increased power output by the amplifier.
In any case, with most 2" compression drivers on the K-402 horn, figures like 110-112 dB/2.83 V inputs are typical. That's not much required input power-direct coupled to the amplifier channel. However, if using passive crossovers, the first thing that happens is that you insert -5dB to -6dB worth of attenuation on the HF channel (either using higher reactance or resistance). That's a lot of power going not going into the drivers.
I'd still like at least 50% power headroom under all listening conditions, and that's beginning to get marginal at less than 2 W/channel output on the HF channel. You need about double that power output level if using a bass bin with 105-106dB/2.83V sensitivity--direct coupled.
Chris
I would be going active, there would be a different amp for whatever bass horn below it. When I've looked at spectrals for classical music I've noticed the same thing, the most energy is the in that upper bass/lower midrange.
I'm not chained to the idea of using my 2 watt amp, the FirstWatt SIT is another I've been looking at.
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55 minutes ago, Chris A said:
Your term "third degree" indicates torture: I certainly wouldn't characterize the response quoted in your post as that. Perhaps you respond with hyperbole? (I generally try to keep the usage of rhetoric to cases where it's necessary.)
I was referring to the ambiguous usage of the word "sensitivity" on that diyAudio post. I find that those type of posts create a lot more confusion than is necessary, so I responded to mark that usage of language for what it is. Words have meaning--especially technical words. I make no apologies for directly addressing apparent meme usage of the word "sensitivity" in the diyAudio post. Perhaps you will see why I did this if you stick around for a while and read how one or two confusing usages of the term echoes through posts here.
I suppose you can use any amplifier that you want to actively bi-amp K-402/2" compression driver combination on top of...? I'd certainly use amplifiers with more available power headroom that are able to reproduce concert-level transients which the K-402 horn-driver is capable of--but that's just me.
Of course, I'm making the assumption that accuracy of reproduction (PWK's goal...and also mine) is the objective that you seek. Perhaps I assumed this in error?
Chris
It seems like you've taken personal offense by my post, I did not mean third degree as in you were literally torturing me, hence the use of
smiley. I did think the "sharpening your thinking" was a bit unusual, since I thought it was a reasonable thing to ask.
I meant sensitivity in the truest 2.83v measured definition not as a meme or something abstract. I was genuinely curious about it so I asked, I even mentioned measurements in my first post so it would be clear I was asking about the objective definition.
I'll not debate the accuracy of tube amps, SET amps or whatever. I am looking for accuracy, I personally think you can get that from a good low power amp assuming it is well designed (IME not the vast majority of commercially designed ones) and there is plenty of headroom. Which is where my question regarding sensitivity (true definition) comes in because I was wondering if I would have enough headroom with my current amp. If it didn't no big deal, I don't have any particular dogma I subscribe to and wouldn't mind swapping to a higher power amp. I know that the speakers and room will always be the largest determinant of sound quality.
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Watched this with a group of friends at a SB party. One of my close friends kept us in decent spirits through half time/Q3, just unbelievable. Still in shock.
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12 hours ago, Chris A said:
Which forum? (Not that I really want to know...)
1) How can you decrease the sensitivity of the driver+horn? This isn't a very good question, it seems.
2) Why are you fastened on the idea of sensitivity? Sensitivity of what? Perhaps sharpening your thinking a bit might help to reformulate the question to something that actually has physical meaning.
3) What kind of hi-fi setup has issues with insufficient amounts of available gain? There are Jubilee owners running barely enough amplifier power (and therefore gain) to drive the bass bins and compression drivers - less than 3 w/channel. Is this what you're worried about? This includes passive crossovers. Nothing can be more demanding of "sensitivity" than this.
Chris
Why the third degree
It was DIYAudio when I was doing searches on constant directivity horns. I realize there are a lot of subjectivist posts that are unsubstantiated which is why I asked here. As for why I asked it first off curiosity and I'm always up for learning something and secondly my favorite amp is a 1-1.5 watt DHT driving DHT SET which I could use on an actively crossed over compression driver/horn.
The thread you linked to was one of the posts I was referring to.
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Heading out to a SB party now. Go Pats! The Pats have succeeded in cloning
, hoping that defense steps up again today.
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A question about EQ'ing the THT, how are people choosing to do this-
Measuring at the listening position, measuring with the mic a meter away from the horn opening, or using Bill's 1/2 space measurement then correcting that in the crossover?
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15 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:
Sure if you are cutting or boosting a lot, there will be a change in the operating sensitivity. The question is, dose it make a significant difference in your use of the speaker?
I believe with the K-402 and TD-4002 (I imagine 4001 as well) you need a decent amount of boost over 8 KHz (someone please correct me where exactly this occurs), where the large format compression driver naturally starts to fall off. I don't think they need any other EQ (boost or cut) below that since both are pretty linear.
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This is something I've read from a few different posters on another forum, but with no measurements to back it up. What they're saying is a compression driver that needs to be EQ'd quite a bit, for instance the EQ required for a controlled directivity horn in the treble will diminish the sensitivity. How accurate is this statement, and how much sensitivity loss is there?
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On 4/15/2016 at 9:02 AM, Chris A said:
The 4001s are beasts, however - quite heavy due to the material change in the magnet. They should perform the same acoustically.
Chris
Has anyone tried the TD4001 on K-402? The lack of snout adapter won't have any effect? From what it looks like from external photos the snout looks like it adds to the expansion of the K-402.
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On 1/30/2017 at 9:55 AM, Chris A said:
Most people have been listening to multiway cone-type loudspeakers all their lives that have irregular polar coverage vs. frequency and in particular irregular coverage angles in their interference bands. Perhaps your ears were greeted by nearly constant coverage all the way up and down to about 150 Hz in the audible frequency band--for the first time. The midbass is where the biggest differences would be audible. Well done straight-sided horns really don't have a "horn sound".
Many people have gotten used to hearing loudspeakers that paint the walls, ceiling and floor with early near field reflections at various places in the audible spectrum. The SH-50s probably didn't that when you heard them and should have sounded very neutral if they were set up well in-room.
The SH-50s also only cover 50 degrees horizontally which is pretty narrow: you'd really need two SH-50s on each side to match stereo K-402 performance.
Chris
I have Geddes Nathans in my HT, so I've been living with constant directivity speakers for a while. They do not exhibit the coloration I heard on the SH50. Again I should stress that it wasn't egregious, but just "present".
I have the MFSL SACD of American Beauty, the mastering engineer said basically nothing had to be done to it in the transfer from tape. Let me know if anyone wants to hear one track off it (from the redbook CD layer).
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2 hours ago, laurelhill said:
Welcome to the forum ye who reside in granite state! Go Pats, yeah might as well be on the bandwagon although appears we're a just a bit of the minority here but its all good. I live in Westhampton and would be happy to audition my K402's for you. It'd be a good time, let me know when you're going to be in the area.
The Darth Belechick era has been good to us, but Boston sports was far more rocky prior to this century. That's what I try and tell my friends from the rest of the country
Thank you very much for the invite, I'll send you a PM when I'm home.
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Have a Great Thanksgiving
in Lounge
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Happy Thanksgiving everyone!