ODS123

I don’t think “guessing what tone adjustments would be useful“ is any more of a “deadly (?) waste of time” than, say, decisions that go into a speakers crossover points, frequency cut-off, etc…. Besides, all McIntosh, Luxman, and Accuphase integrated amps that feature tone controls also have defeat switches. This makes it easy for the listener - when they encounter an imperfectly recorded song - to decide for themselves if adjusting bass and/or treble improves the sound or makes it worse. If the latter, then leave them zeroed or hit the defeat switch. The argument that the additional signal breaks needed for tone controls or even their defeat switches somehow deteriorates the signal is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. Take a look at a mixing board. Pretty much every audiophile approved recording from Steely Dan to Diana Krall to Norah Jones was produced using a mixing board with literally hundreds and hundreds of signal breaks required by the various pots, sliders, and switches. Yet the music that comes out the other end of these things is thoroughly enjoyable. …If every signal break deteriorated the sound then what would come out the other end of a mixing board would be unrecognizable. Btw, I’ve had my McIntosh integrated for nearly 8 years and there is not one iota of scratchiness or noise in any of the switches.

That puts it perfectly and succinctly. Why, when they do no harm, go without? DSP Room correction, room treatments etc. can all help with room induced imperfections…. But to correct a bad recording sometimes requires a turn to the left and other times a turn to the right of bass / treble. None of the aforementioned remedies to room problems will correct that. As I look back over the years the audiophiles that most loved music had integrated amps with tone controls And usually with a much larger music library. They would eagerly listen to a great but poorly recorded song (with judicious use of tone controls) while the purest audiophile would push that recording to the back of their library as they preferred to listen to only near perfect recordings, often of mediocre music

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not. ..I have lot's of recordings that are too bright or the bass, when listening at near "live" levels, begins to shake my kitchen cupboards. A small amount of treble/ bass adjustment in such cases enhances my enjoyment. ..I don't get mired down with purist thinking. And remember I'm also referring to a Mono switch. ..I use that pretty often. ..Lots of 50's and 60's recordings have very gimmicking stereo mixing. ..Like the guitar entirely from one channel and the vocals from the others (e.g., some old Beatles tracks). ..These songs are MUCH better sounding with the mono switch engaged. I agree wholeheartedly w/ Alan Harbeth. The audio industry has gaslighted us into thinking tone controls are bad (eg., they damage the signal w/ add'l breaks; they change what the artist intended, etc..). In truth, the " minimalism is better" argument is entirely self-serving to the industry. To wit: It's much easier and cheaper to make an integrated amp that has just a volume control. ..No thanks to that, imho.

I'll share a quote gleaned from another Forum. This from Alan Shaw of Harbeth. ..I'm betting PWK would say something similar "One of the greatest mysteries and acts of insanity in the audio business was the deletion of tone controls from hifi amplifiers from about the 1980s with some utterly discreditable mumbo jumbo that 'tone controls are no part of a hifi system'. I can categorically assure you that a properly designed and executed tone control circuit does not degrade the signal quality and never has done... Tone controls were deleted from hifi amps as a marketing gimmick to attract a new 'minimalist' consumer away from amps laden with buttons and controls." (thank you Keiron99 on Steve Hoffman forum)

I'm sure it's beautifully made, hence a fair amount of pride-of-ownership will accrue to all who own one. But sound better? And seriously? $5K for an integrated that doesn't even have a balance control?? ..Personally, given your budget I'd find a Mac dealer (a sister company to AR, I believe) and buy one of their integrated amps. ..They all have balance controls, tone controls, and a mono switch - common sense features that make listening to all kinds of music of varying recording quality more enjoyable. Or an Accuphase or Luxman as they also have these sensible features.

Have an auto window tinting company come and tint the offending window. ..If you still notice a color change - likely a small amount, if any - then swap the speakers' position every year. My cherry CWIII's have changed color, but I welcome it. ...They've darkened and become slightly more red. I would not even think of using some sort of UV-rated car wax. ..I'd sooner resort to just switching their position 1x/yer.

I'd send them back. ..I had to go through two defective pairs of CWIII's before getting a perfect pair. The first had a blemish similar to yours, and the second had a mid-horn that was not perfectly flush-mounted against the baffle. It was slightly tilted because the recess wasn't properly routed out. ..Very frustrating. My retailer was very nice about out though; they never once suggested I just "accept" them.

I'll take the former, thanks. ...Hearing vocals only from one channel and guitar only from the the other is totally redic. ..Not realistic at all.

I feel like it only matters in home audio simply because it can only be accomplished in home audio. But does it really contribute much to the visceral enjoyment of music? ..Not so much, imho.

Do the the people at the mixing board send different signals to the left and right bank of speakers, with the hopes of creating a stereo image? ..Or are all speaker fed same signal (w/ perhaps some dividing of frequency ranges via a external crossover, etc.) In any case, it's led me to rethink the importance of imaging. ...Which is perhaps one of the reasons why I love my Cornwall III's more than others I've had which do a much better job of imaging. For example, small-ish stand-mounted 2-ways like PSB stratus Minis, and Spica TC-50's. ..These speakers created incredible images, but ...meh.

Saw two concerts quite recently here in Phila: Norah Jones a week ago at the Mann Music Center and last night I saw Lyle Lovett and His Large Band at The City Winery. Both were fabulous shows, particuly LL and HLB. The audio at both shows was terrific. ..Acoustics weren't overly reverberant and the volume was low enough that my ears weren't buzzing by the end. But in both cases there wasn't a bit of discernible stereo imaging even though my location would lend itself to hearing it. When I'd close my eyes I couldn't for the life of me place the vocals or instruments - they all seemed to be coming from the same place. Yet, I thought the sound was fabulous and the performances incredibly compelling. Which leads me to wonder why we so obsess on this particular aspect of audio playback at home?? Seems to me that imaging is mostly a mixing board trick for in-studio recordings that has little relevance to actual music, unless one is listening to a tiny, unamplified ensemble in the tiniest of settings. Even if both of these artists used un-amplified acoustic instruments, I very much doubt I would be able to locate their instruments/voices w/ my eyes closed at these venues or any other even a fraction of their size. ..Just wonderin'

Huh?? They lost me with this "Typical loudspeaker cabinets have pronounced structural resonances which are very audible and reduce the speaker’s ‘signal-to-noise ratio’" Speaker S/N ratio?? Yes, resonances need to be kept below the threshold of audibility. ..But solving the problem does not necessitate an inordinately complex cabinet design. But since this is high-end audio - where fetishizing power cords, speaker cables, turntable plinth thickness, etc.. looms large - I'm not surprised by claims that it does.

Don't agree. My CW III are made from MDF and sound as hollow as a shoebox when you knock on them. ...As do the latest iteration of LaScalas and Klipschorns. Yet these three speakers sound much better to my ears than many speakers I have heard that have enclosures that are as solid as granite. ..Some composite, some aluminum. IMHO, enclosure integrity needs to meet a certain minimum, but beyond that it become superfluous. My Vandersteen 3A sigs and Paradigm S8 V2's felt like bricks when you knocked on them. ..Yet I don't like them nearly as much as my CW's. ..So there's gotta be more to speaker design than just enclosure rigidity.

I've never owned one of these... and don't know how well it measures, etc.. But still, audio was more fun back in those days. ..Yes, the buttons, sliders, knobs, etc.. got rather scratchy rather quickly, but the flexibility and adjustability was great. compare that with today... ...There are high dollar integrateds that don't even have balance control. Ugh..

I've been saying this for years. ..Modern day amps/ integrateds and receivers that are engineered to be linear will sound pretty much alike so long as they aren't driven into distortion and these days that would include pretty much ALL such components.. Nowadays THD, S/R, Channel Separation, etc - even in cheap AVRs - is cheaply accomplished and exceeds the threshold of our ability to hear differences. My guess? ..A vintage Onkyo Receiver? Feature you'll never go w/o? ..Tone controls Personally, I'll NEVER again buy an integrated that lacks tone controls or a Mono switch. Maybe this?? EDIT: oops, I shoulda read the whole thread. I see you’ve already revealed your answer.

I think this is largely true. ..Deeper bass extension and greater SPL before distorting.

I'm thinking ZERO difference in sound performance, but point taken.

Fair enough... ..So let the question be: Would the CW4's sound better if they were made from BB?

I'm not trying to be difficult. Remember, this thread is about "myths" so you'll have to forgive people for expressing stubborn skepticism. ..References others have made to stradivarius violins, etc.. don't apply. Speakers (as Edgar pointed out) are not suppose to color the sound. Moreover most of the major speaker companies, that uses wood, seem to prefer MDF - even in their cost-no-object designs. So, I'll ask again, do you think Roy chose a sub-optimum material for the CW4's?

Sorry but still unconvinced. So are you saying Roy chose an inferior material for the Cornwall IV's? ..That the speakers would sound better if made from BB?? Also, while MDF may be less expensive, it's harder on tooling and it's heavier so more costly to ship a finished speaker.

You said baltic sounds better. Please explain. Roy, if you're still reading this thread, what are your thoughts? Would the new CW4 sound better if it was made from BB? I'll acknowledge that it makes a cabinet more resistant to water damage but it's hard to worry about that risk when none of my other gear is water-resistant.

^ I agree with everything you said Edgar.

Well... Yes, of course. But if there's one thing we've learned from this thread is that people aren't really interested in proof, right?? Anecdotal evidence is accorded more credibility than actual A/B testing. Why else can't I convince even one person to do something as simple as wiring one channel of their system w/ expensive cables, and the other channel w/ the free cables that came with their components and compare using a mono recording and their balance control (speakers pushed together of course) In response, I get: Why bother!! If I hear a difference, that's good enough for me.

His final summation after noting very small measurable differences b/w BB, Pine Play, MDF, etc.. "You can hear the difference? ..I would dispute that" So, again, maybe this is a new Myth for PWK BS button... That BB measures and sounds better than MDF.

Tone? Please explain why. I can see durability and water resistance (for outdoor theaters/ amusement parks, etc..) but not tone. Curious why this would be. Vandersteen, Paradigm, PSB, and virtually EVERY other high-end speaker mfg prefers MDF. Would a CW 4 made entirely of baltic plywood sound better than one made w/ MDF? I think another myth is about to be called out.