ODS123

Firstly... I LOVE your array of old gear! While I can't zoom enough to confirm, it would appear most of your pre-amps have balance controls, tone controls, and quite likely Mono/ Stereo switch. I very much lament that these simple but (to me) essential features have been largely vanquished by the silly notion that they disqualify a piece of gear from being truly high-end. This nonsensical view is rooted in the belief that they somehow audibly damage a signal even when not in use to improve a poorly recorded song. Indeed, in some ways hifi was more fun back in the day when gear had much greater adjustability. Your gear looks awesome, appears lovingly maintained, and I'm sure is a great deal of fun to own. I'd love to own an old Mac amp, or Marantz integrated, etc.. Even if I'd end up preferring to listen to more linear (and quieter) components, it would still be fun to own/ display, etc gear like yours. Simply beautiful. That said, I never claimed that amps (or integrated amps) of that vintage were indistinguishable from each other, I don't think it was true back then. My claim was and is that MODERN gear (w/ F/R, THD, S/N ratio, channel separation, etc... all improved beyond the threshold of our hearing) sound alike when they are engineered to be linear and operated w/ in their design limits. Apart from your NAD 375bee (which I owned at one time and loved - but got rid of b/c it didn't have a mono switch), I don't think any of your gear meets this criteria. ..That's not a criticism. I'm sure most of those pieces represented the SOTA of their day. 2nd point: If not level matched, then it's not a valid comparison - blinded or not. 3rd Point: I have also been to a great many live orchestral performances. As I've said before, my hearing measures well and I have a keen sense of musical nuance that has been honed by years of playing and listening to live (often unamplified) music. 4th Point: Sorry but I don't think you do understand expectation bias. That is, not if you feel it has anything to do w/ deception or if you think you can just inoculate yourself from it by sheer will. That's not how it works. We are all prone to it. The goal of my hifi system?? To recreate the live listening experience to the the greatest extent I can sensibly afford. I want an integrated amp, cd-player, music server/ DAC that neither adds nor subtracts anything that audibly impacts the signal it's being fed. Nowadays, this can be achieved quite affordably. But I also want my amp (or pre-amp) to have some basic, functional, and harmless (when not in use) adjustability for when a song has been poorly recorded. I personally wouldn't own a pre-amp or integrated that does not have bass/ treble, balance, and a stereo/ mono switch. Finally, I want gear that is visually appealing and is tactically satisfying to operate. ..My Mac integrated meets this criteria, even if it doesn't sound any different than the integrated amps I had before buying it.

Though I'm not a tube guy (I prefer linearity) I concur - a little bit of validity testing would go a lonnnngggg way. Well, I say i'm not a tube guys, but I do dream of someday owning a new(wish) Mac MC275. Absolutely beautiful looking bit of industrial design. And McIntosh's newer tube amps are pretty much audibly indistinguishable from their S/S gear. Ridiculously low THD, high S/N ratio, and excellent Channel Separation, etc. all make it so. And it all just gets more and more improbable as CD Players, DACs, Cables, etc.. are brought into the mix.

feel free to visit the other threads then. It's amazing how threatened some are by someone trying to inject objectivity into the audio discussion. Again, Beginners take note.

I'm sorry for not replying more quickly but honestly I don't really know how to respond. I issue a warning to beginners to be wary of claims from people who hear "huge" differences b/w amp X and Y without engaging in ANY sort of validity testing and you, in reply, offer more of the very same claims. ..So all I can say is that I'm happy that you are able to enjoy this hobby in your own way. As for my own choice in integrated amp - the McIntosh MA6600 - as I've said before (copied from an earlier post): "Although I don’t believe my Mac amp sounds different than any Of the amps I’ve had prior (NAD 375bee, Bryston 3bsst/Bp-25, PeachTree Nova, B&K 202+/Pro-10MC, or even my Onkyo AVR), there are still a great many reasons for buying it. For starters, I love the feel, the look, the build quality and the fact that it is largely handcrafted in upstate New York. Plus, I love the feature set, Including: mono/stereo switch, bass/treble controls, trims to adjust the volume level for all inputs, and wattage meters that help ensure I’m not over driving my speakers. Basically, I see owning a McIintosh amp as being roughly equivalent to owning an expensive watch: yes, it’s frivolous and unnecessary but it is satisfying and enjoyable all the same. I am not critical of owning expensive gear, only of believing it sounds better. Speakers are the lone exception, imho. I don’t own a motorcycle, shore house, expensive watch, boat or an expensive car. My audio system is pretty much my only extravagance ."

But how is this relevant? I said that wise doctors are persuaded by outcome data (ie., do patients live longer and or feel better?) and NOT by details about the biochemistry of what the drug does. I suspect you believe you have presented some sort of a "gotcha" fact but I don't follow. BTW, it's not necessarily true that Pharma companies spend more on Sales Rep expenses than they do on R&D. For one, not all drug companies even have drug reps, plus those that do have R&D pipelines (ie., drugs in development, inc. various stages of clinical trials) that range from quite huge to non-existent.. Plus, the statement above is quickly becoming outdated. Gifts (such as pens, notepads, etc..) have not been allowed (by law) for years. As for meals, today less than half of doctors offices allow drug reps to bring meals into the office. And an increasing number of offices (mostly those that are part of major health networks like Penn Medicine) don't allow drug reps (with few exceptions) to step onto the premises.

Yes, to each their own. ..As I've repeatedly said, I'm not trying to change the minds of committed audiophiles such as yourself. Only trying to give the newbies who come here some food for thought. And I never said use the cheapest amp you can buy. ..That is a straw man argument. I said buy an amp that has the features you want (such as but not limited to: tone controls, stereo/mono mode, input level matching, built-in DAC, etc..) AND can drive your speakers to desired levels without distorting. I said this can usually be accomplished for $500 or less, but clearly some will find reason to spend more (like yours truly - my McIntosh MA6600 was considerably more expensive than this). You have a fondness for tube amps which is fine. ..But newbies should be aware that such amps do not allow more of the music to shine through (as often claimed by it's fans) but rather tubes add distortion that was not in the original recording. If one finds this sort of added distortion appealing, then buy a tube amp or buy a S/S amp and an external device to add this distortion if and when one wants it. ...I think generally speaking, people would be more inclined to buy electronics that don't add colorations. Hence, a modern day amp that is engineered to be linear under normal operating conditions.

Chris, My assertion was, and continues, that modern day amps that are engineered to be linear will be indistinguishable when operated within their design limits. You disagree and cite how some 35 years ago a few handfuls of people were able to distinguish a sold-state amp from a tube amp. This fails to meet the criteria oI either modern or "engineered to be linear". As for Roy Delgato, I never said differences b/w speakers were inaudible. Indeed, I believe that is pretty much where ALL the differences lie, apart from the all-important listening environment and, perhaps, a turntable in an analog rig which is highly mechanical and subject to poor alignment (cartridge) and other such issues. As for challenging my hearing, I don't take offense at all. In reply I can only offer that my hearing measures well, and I have a keen sense of musical nuance honed from years of playing and listening to live (often unamplified) music. Since I've never de-mastered music they way you have I of course can't say for certain that I would be able to hear what you are hearing during that process. But all of this serves to make my point that if there is even a debate regarding the audibility of differences b/w modern day amplifiers, then just how important can these difference be!? Plus, establishing the existence of these differences is only part of the equation. Of even greater importance: If Amp A is audibly different from amp B, then the next question is, which one is reliably found to sound more like music?? No one has even begun to take that on. So, again, to beginners I say. Buy an integrated amp or receiver (2-ch or multi) that has enough power to drive your speaker to desired levels and offers the features you want (eg., tone controls, input level matching, mono switch, built-in DAC, etc..) and be done with it. ..In most cases this can be accomplished for $500 or less. ..Spend the vast majority of $$ on your speakers and maximizing your listening environment.

That is of course fine. You are certainly free to pursue this hobby any way you chose. And I hope you do it in good health. ..That said, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to point out to the newbies who visit this site that this hobby is utterly bereft of any sort of honesty or validity testing. Which is something that may not concern you but it probably would someone new to this hobby who wants to decide how to apportion their spending across Speakers, Amplifier, Cables, CD Player, etc..

Sounds to me like he may have actually done NOTHING to his amps or made changes that were indeed measurable but still not audible. For ex. perhaps raising the THD of his amp to simply match that of the others. ..So long as both were %1 or lower, THD would inaudible. He could then say he "matched the amps". ..Perhaps I missed it, but did he prior to this establish that people could reliably distinguish the ML from the CJ?? I think what he did is brilliant in that he uses the fact that modern amps sound pretty much the same to sell his less expensive amps. This brings to mind an idea I actually gave serious thought to: I've often thought about creating a company called AudioMax and marketing a pair of audiophile speaker wires - basically just plain 12g wire w/ techy looking insulation and anodized blueish connectors. I would then organize a DBT comprised of audiophiles comparing my AudioMax cables to, just for example, Audioquest Dragon Zero's - which retail for $11K. For motivation I'd offer $500 to any of the 10, 20, 40, whatever, who could reliably (> than chance) distinguish one from the other. If my experiment plays out as expected (that they can't!), I would then sell the cables with a full page ad in Stereophile w/ the headline... In bias-controlled DBT comprised of Stereophile-subscribed Audiophiles, My $30 Audiomax speaker cables were statistically indistinguishable from $11,000 AudioQuest Dragon Zeros!! Order yours today for arrival by Christmas! I would of course provide at the bottom of the page all the details of the listening trials (including the $500 award), just like a Pharmaceutical company details their Bias Controlled Clinical Trials in their Prescription Insert. This seems similar to what Bob Carver did.

To my thinking, all this waxing poetic about slew, current, THD, etc. aside, the most important measurement is: Can it be distinguished, while blinded, from other amps that are similarly intended to be linear to within our hearing limits. To any beginners/ newbies reading this thread, consider this: To date not ONE manufacturer has ever cited how their amplifier, buoyed by all of their proprietary approaches and topology, etc. etc. is actually preferred, in blinded trials, by experienced audiophiles to other amps which are also engineered to be linear under normal operating conditions. Audiophiles should be more like doctors when they talk to Drug reps. A typical response from a wise doctor when confronted by a drug rep is usually: "Don't bore with details about mechanism of action, or how your drug improves a particular physiological measurement! What I want to know first is Outcomes!! Show me the data that indicates patients on your drug live longer or they feel better. ..If you can show me that, then I'll be interested in the all the how's and why's..." Otherwise, save your breath." I think there's a lesson in this for audiophiles.

Agreed. ..I bought my new Cornwall IIIs 10 mos. ago from Worldwide Stereo in Ardmore, PA. ..At the time they had every Heritage model except Klipschorns on display at either their Ardmore store or their Montgomeryville, PA store. I was able to hear Heresy's, Forte's and Cornwalls all the same day...And their website (which seems to be updated daily) indicates they have Klipschorns in stock now! (older model I'm guessing). ..They were so friendly and customer-centered that I'm betting if I asked to hear the K-horns they would have arranged to have them brought from their warehouse and made available to audition (after probably making sure I was serious and looking to make a near-term purchase - which is understandable). So some dealers are doing this now...

That's disappointing. I would think Klipsch would require a dealer to have a pair of Khorn on display if they wish to be a "certified Heritage dealer; and would do whatever necessary to make it affordable for the dealer. ..Either allow dealer to hold them on partial consignment or loan them to the dealer outright. Years ago I was a district manager for a german car company. To be an authorize dealer, the dealership needed to carry a representative mix of ALL vehicles in the line. One possible solution might be for Klipsch put a few dozen pairs into demo service and allow each authorize Heritage dealer to have it for a designated period of time. ..Enough time for them to get word out to customers, local audio clubs, etc, and maybe arrange a special listening event. Other brands do this in my area. Wilson, Vandersteen, just to name a few. Each dealer get a a pair for a few weeks, then ship the pair off to the next dealer. Bottomline: they'd sell more if they made it possible for more people to hear them.

definitely NOT related to speaker wire gauge. Like dtel suggested you need to first rule out the amplifier as the culprit. Swap the cables - either at the speaker end or at the amplifier binding posts. If indeed a speaker, then as dtel suggested.

Balance and volume knobs have a solid feel; both channels attenuate at same rate (unlike my Bryston pre-amp); auto input switching works flawlessly; fit/finish of case; speaker binding posts feel solid, unlikely to break/strip after repeated use. Other than the knobs being made of heavy plastic (rather than metal) and it's lack of tone controls and add'l inputs, I'd say it feels as well built as most $1000 pre-amps or integrated amps. Finally, it measurements by reviewer (see Ken Rockwell review noted in my 1st post) indicate it either meets OR exceeds ALL specs for THD, power output, S/N ratio, etc.. I'd say that's pretty remarkable for $139! Let me ask this: Do you find it unremarkable for $139? Why?

Thinking of buying my son an inexpensive integrated amp for Christmas to use in his dorm with an old pair of PSB Alphas. I see many cute little class-D amps on Amazon and elsewhere (some for as little as $80) however when you look at the back panel (or at their power pack) none of them are UL (underwriters laboratory) certified? Should this give me pause?? I can't help but worry about plugging something into a wall made by a mfg. who has opted NOT to get this certification. Pretty much EVERY appliance in my home (coffee makers, blender, toaster, all my audio gear, etc.. ) does, but not these cheapy amps. Thoughts? Northeastern Univ. has already had one dorm burn down this fall, I'd hate to be the cause of another

I have no problem at all owning gear made in china, none whatsoever. I have lots of it in my home. ..However, I'm not sure about gear lacking a UL approval. Something about leaving such a device plugged in while I"m not home that gives me pause.

Deleted comments re: risks of buying speakers w/ piano finish. It appears these do NOT have a piano finish. So...... never mind.

Consider this.... I have two of them: one driving speakers in our bedroom, and one driving outdoor speakers on our deck. Both have worked flawlessly for years. For $139 The build quality is quite remarkable. Note that it only has two inputs (and switches automatically b/w them) and no remote. In our bedroom I use one input for Apple airport express (to receive signal via airplay from our music server) and the second for a 1/8" jack that can be used by any iphone/ iPod. Puts out 50w/ channel with inaudible levels of distortion and has impressive signal-to-noise and channel separation specs for it's price. Plus, it feels remarkably solid for such an inexpensive component. As for the Nobosound amp you mention, I've never heard of the brand. Is it UL (Underwriters Laboratories) approved? I would worry about leaving such a thing plugged in if not. I used one of my AMP-100s for a few hours to drive my brand new Cornwall III's and it sounded great. ..And it drove the CW's to levels that would bring the police to my door without a hint of strain. Two links: One for B&H Photo for buying. The second is a review that includes tons of specs and measurements. Look for it on Amazon as well. Though they no longer sell it there are tons of reviews from people who found it to be very reliable. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1222810-REG/audiosource_amp100vs_50_watt_2_channel_amplifier.html https://kenrockwell.com/audio/audiosource/amp-100.htm

A bit tangential to your point.... One thing that has always struck me as sort of silly is the notion that good speakers NEVER cause listener fatigue. You'll read posts like "I can listen all night long to XXX speakers and never feel the urge to turn it down or turn it off." Well, as someone who has heard a lot of life music, I can tell you that REAL music played in a proper venue can absolutely cause listening fatigue after a while. Trumpets, flutes, violins, and violas, (just to name a few) even when played by exceptional musicians, can start to grate after awhile. So I always wonder, if speakers NEVER causes listener fatigue, then what isn't the speaker recreating that was there during the performance?

No one is saying that. Differences b/w speakers are audible. Differences b/w amplifiers, cd players, DAC's, cables, etc... not so much. As I've said before, just how big and significant can differences b/w such components be if there is ANY debate at all about their existence??? Beginners should dwell on that and remember it when they read someone claiming that X amp totally blew away Y amp.

Since I'm the one in this thread with Cornwalls and a McIntosh amp, I'm compelled to reply. Yes, I understand there is more to a system than playing loud. I have excellent measured hearing and I have a keen sense of musical nuance that has been honed from years of playing and listening to recorded AND live music, including acoustic unamplified performances. I have thousands of LP's, CD's and digital music albums. Bottomline: I'm a lifelong music obsessive who cares as much about recreating the "live" music experience at home as anyone here. And it is because of my love for this hobby that I bemoan how so few of it's participants give a rip about making sure the differences they hear b/w pieces of gear (or an interconnect, speaker cable, power conditioner, etc...) are REAL rather than the consequence of biases. I am resigned to not changing the minds of any of those who are convinced that gear selection is much like wine tasting, but I DO hope to give food for thought to the beginner who comes to this forum in the hopes of learning about the hobby so as to make a better, more informed decision before buying a piece of gear or a whole system. And to them I say, your system is mostly about speaker selection and listening environment. That is where you should spend the bulk of your time and money.

I would avoid any integrated that doesn't have at least a balance control. You mention the Peachtree. ..I had a Nova a while back and liked how it looked and felt to operate. However, when I turned the volume wayyy down when listening early am, one channel would attenuate more quickly than the other. Without a balance control there was no way to adjust this. I sent it back for adjustment and it was improved only slightly I consider that to be an egineering "fail". I've had Rotel and NAD gear and loved both. Have never owned but I know Yamaha and Onkyo have great offerings as well. As for vintage.. while I do love the look of vintage gear, I can't help but worry about having an old appliance plugged in all the time. You might find you get more for your money if you go with either an A/V receiver or even an AM/FM receiver. ..Even if you don't need multi-channel or AM/FM

I agree. ..And though I don't romanticize analog the way some do, I will say it absolutely astonishing how good a chip of gem stone dragged around a disc of plastic can sound. Absolutely incredible. It's limitations notwithstanding, it was an amazing invention. ..And to think how far it came. I have my great grandparents Victrola in my living room. ..The music played on it was barely audible above all the surface noise.

I was listening to cd's when listening through the Levinson amp. ..Don't remember the pre-amp, it was probably a Levinson pre-amp as well. ..CD's played through a NAIM cd player. After removing the Levinson amp he connected the Vandersteen 5A sigs to the NAD 375bee which is an INTEGRATED amp,. ..All the music I had on the CD's (Makaha Sons of Ni'ihau, various Steely Dan, etc..). I also had as lossless (not that that entirely matters - but hat's a whole other area of audiophile nonsense which I'll skip for now) files. Again, I did not hear one IOTA of drop in quality from the Levinson to the NAD. And I played it as loud as they would allow through both setups.

I certainly agree with you on Phonographs. ..My previous TT's - both belt-drives - had very audible flutter and inaccurate speed. ..Piano notes on, just for example, George Winston December, would warble audible on all of my previous TT's. ..Thankfully, not so on my brand new Technics SL-12010GR. But there is so much surface noise on LP's that it becomes the limiting factor for total enjoyment. ..I tend to be someone who believes that analog - even the very best rigs - doesn't come close to the sound quality of well recorded CD's and other digital forms. ...The beauty of the analog era is that advancing to the next song was such a PIA that people had little choice but to hear a whole album side thus getting a sense of the connectedness b/w the songs and the theme of the album. Today, digital streaming has allowed everyone to develop musical ADD. ..People listen only the most accessible song(s) on an album, then move on. ..Plus, all the included content of LPs - posters, lyric sheets, rolling papers - is gone. That's were all the romance with analog comes from, imho.