lne937s

Rap video's are a guilty pleasure. They always make me laugh- everything is so surreal, yet politically incorrect. I place ghetto fasion in that boat. I like drinking from Coors Lite from aluminum cans on hot days. I also like single malt scotch, but I really don't understand your post, mobilehomeless. Larry

My apartment has plenty of sound diffraction (clutter) and absorbsion (dirty laundry on the floor). I think I definitly am favoring the function side of the equation. I know nothing about furniture, but I like simple shapes and Italian leather. I also need function- no spare space. I'm sure my apartment is anti-Martha Stewart Larry

As someone who works in the fasion (as well as financial) capital of the world, I have to put in my two cents. Although I am originally from the MO, I have unconciously been sucked into the NYC mindset. I work in advertising, which is business casual. Looking at my shoes, I realized that all of my shoes, even my American branded Kenneth Cole's, were made in Italy. You do a lot of walking here, so quality shoes are necessary. In my closet, I also found a lot of H&M, Armani Exchange, DKNY, and Banana Republic- not top brands, but much trendier than what I wore in MO. Really, it's not that much more expensive than wearing Dockers- these stores clear out their merchandise constantly for the newest thing. However, once you get used to the rent (Eg., Monica's apartment on Friends- huge 2bd, high ceilings, upper east side by the park, with balcony= $5K/month easy) and taxes (unrealistic brackets for standard of living+ state and city income tax) everything starts looking cheap in comparison. Back to Klipschwear- First of all, polo shirts are overworn in the midwest/south. You guys really need to get out more. The only time I wear polo's is if I am cooking out or with shorts on the weekend. Secondly, I think that any shirt that displays the lable or advertises a product on the outside is tacky. This includes those T-shirts all the tourists buy with the designer's name in large print on the outside. If the lable is meant to be funny (like the "make 7-up yours" t-shirts or "Spam"), I'll let it slide. Thirdly, when I went to a high-end audiophile speaker store here (Wilson audio, Burmester, and other speakers that cost as much as a Mercedes S-class) the manager was wearing black lable Armani- the real deal. The salesman was more casual, wearing slacks with Campers. I think the Klipsch clothing line is more relevant to dressing like a midwesterner than an audiophile. I also have problems with the association to "audiophiles". I typically do not think of Klipsch as audiophile. Typically, audiophile speakers stress flat frequency response over SPL. This is not to say that Klipsch are bad speakers, they have their uses. However, I think my Maggies are more typical audiophile than my reworked RF3's. I think "audio enthusiast" would be a better term. My apartment, however, is a total mess- furniture that was given to me or made out of plywood and 2X4's and A/V everywhere. However, if I upgrade, it will be to quality stuff. Larry This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-10-2002 at 01:07 PM

just wondering if anyone tried my 39watts @ 60Hz test from above (plugging your speakers directly into the power outlet- 110v divided by 2.83v/watt@8ohms)? I have had 2 techniques recievers and blew them both up @ moderate volumes. Their heat sinks are too small and ventilation is poor. Many use a fan to cool them, but by the time it comes on, it's usually too late. I also have to say that I prefer the phantom center. With a 100" front projection system and a seating position close to the screen, dialog from the high center seems misplaced, especially if the sound is coming from the bottom corner. A wide soundstage from two channels seems to work much better. Larry

After multiple flirtations with surround sound, I am back to 2 channel. I think I get surrounded by sound enough in my small room and would rather spend my money on 2 good channels than 5 ok ones. 5 would be great if I had 5 ears. Also I can't believe how overinflated wattage ratings are today. My sevties amp- separate power supplies, etc, blows away contemporary amps rated twice as high. If you don't believe me and hate your speakers, compare it to this- Every house in America has a high current, 38.87watt @ 60Hz test tone- its your electrical outlet (110volts divided by 2.83volts/watt @ 8ohms). Some have a 77.74watt outlett- the 220v appliance jack. WARNING- A car audio retailer in MO used to plug in one of their subwoofers that was rated @ 1200w to demonstrate its durability- I would not try this with regular speakers. Larry This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-03-2002 at 03:43 PM

Forrest- I just stated the murder/ church attendance as an observation, not as a direct correlation. Also, I never implied causation. To do so would be like claiming the removing church in school has led to classroom shootings and computer usage. No post hoc falacies here. However, it does seem to contradict some claims of the moral righteous foundation of this society. Morality is much more revelant to violent crime than economic success- Jesus as an individual was not very financially successful. Also in my previous post, I clearly state that it is not scientific- "I did no statistical tests between the two variables, so it is not scientific." I do not consider myself a liberal, although some of my views lean in that direction. I believe that the role of government should be to protecty us from others, not from ourselves. I also think the government should incourage behavior that benefits society. From a true conservative (not Conservative) perspective, the government should keep its nose out of reproductive rights, religion, and substance use. However, what we lable as "Conservative" has supported these causes. Also, compared to my standard of living, I pay a greater percent of my income in taxes than almost all of you- it is very expensive to live here and the tax brackets do not change. I live in one small room, commute 40min. each way, and am in an upper-middle class tax bracket. I would actually be upper middle class in Arkansas. However, I would rather give poor people tax breaks than have them soaking up welfare money or on the street begging. We do not need to maintain an empoverished population to the extent that we used to because we can go outside our borders to get cheap labor- economic empirialism. That is one reason why we had below "minimum unemployment" during the 90's and still maintained stable economic growth. As a result, welfare needs to be reformed. However, we need to improve education or the better educated/ poorly paid workers we use in some contries will take over our position. Also, farm subsidies need to be adjusted in the age of corporate farming. The family farms the subsidies were intended to support are no longer the norm. Controlling inflated costs on defense contracts is essential to providing a strong defense. Look at Harry S Truman's work while he was a US Senator. We need to have some taxation to keep our country and economy going, and Deficit spending is not an answer. A lot of programs need to get back to basics. Social Security used to be a program to keep old poor people from starving to death, before it was spread to everyone. However, seniors have amazing pull in this country- so this is a sacred cow. When the baby boom retires, we are going to be in a world of hurt, especially if people start living longer. Also, all the red tape intended to keep check on corruption is leading to inefficiency so great that it outcosts the corruption. Why pay an efficiency expert $50K per year and hundreds of man hours filling out forms to remove $20k of waste? The Pendergast machine was extremely corrupt, but it got things done- not that we should allow that kind of system to happen. Unless Bush intends to make budgets with Reagan-like deficits, we need to make cuts, even where it hurts. It all breaks down to money- who has it and who gets it (usually ends up being the same person). The people who really get hurt are us in the middle. If you look at corporate taxes and tarrifs as a portion of government revenue 50 years ago compared to today in real terms (adjusted for inflation)- you may have a new opinions on taxes. I see good and bad points in all the presidents we've had. Carter may not have been the best president, but he certainly was one of the most moral, was intelligent (if not in areas pertaining to political maneuvering), and has done more after his presidency to make the world a better place than many presidents do while in office. Reagan also had many virtues and was not as one-sided as many would make him out to be- he was a union leader, a tobacco spokesman, and his favorite president was FDR. I think one of the negative aspects of religion is that it tends to make people think in good and bad, black and white - people are many shades of grey. I try not to judge, many of my comments here were more to show alternate perspectives (like the communist point- I am not a communist) rather than to push an agenda. I want to make people think so that they do not follow blindly, not to make them mad. Any way- best wishes to all Larry This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-03-2002 at 02:49 PM

Roadhawg I had intended to comment on type of education but it came off as amount. I apologise- I need to proof read better. I have had many arguments with people who were taught other perspectives that lead to their conclusions. Definitely, this does not only come from multiple degrees. I also apologise for assuming that you were unaware of the references I was talking about ("When you assume you make an..."), other people I had this argument with were. My crime numbers came from a paper I did in my senior year of undergrad that compared official murder rates of industrialized nations. These are official per capita numbers generated by their respective governments. While there are exceptions to the rule, America consistantly has the highest official murder rate per capita. Civil wars and missing people are commonly not included in these numbers. The religious connection stems from an article I read while researching another paper for a PLS class on religion and politics. I did no statistical tests between the two variables, so it is not scientific. Also, it only compared Western European countries, being from the late 80's. The interpretations of the Bible you speak of are relatively contemporary ones. For the majority of it's existance, these were not the official stances of the Judeo-Christian religions. Historically speaking, these interpretations as well as the Protestant Reformation represent a small portion of Judeo-Christian history. The Papal rulings I spoke of were similar to Supreme Court rulings in that they contradicticted previous interpretations and established new interpretations which have spanned the subsequent few hundred years. These have been adopted by even those churches that have broken away from the Roman Catholic church, many of which are unaware of the origin. Jews and Muslims, both of which use the Old Testament, still believe that the soul enters with the first breath. The theocracy of Iran even pays for abortions due to the percieved social benefits. A document as expansive and culturally removed as the Bible has generated numbers of interpretations. If you look at the different views surrounding the relatively simple and straight-forward Constitution, this is very understandable. Being that it is a religious document, people view their interpretations as absolute and without question. I am a Catholic. Although I frequently disagree with the Pope, I believe in Christianity. However, I've been heavily exposed to other religions and sociopolitical history; which leads me to support the separation of church and state. The support of different ideas is what it's all about. I am also NOT a Communist or support it. I believe in using whatever works, and that happens to be a modified form of capitalism. I just think that people overestimate the positive power of Christianity in this country, that "If it's good it has to be Christian" mentality. Like the winning Superbowl team. I have enjoyed the opinions of thos who disagree with me. Larry

Forrest I want to state that I firmly believe that Bush had no knowledge of 9-11 for one simple reason- while most presidents are trying to do something in the first 100 days, he was on vacation more than any president in recent history. Even if the information was available, he would never have heard it. 9-11 is a matter of neglect rather than negligence. I think that everyone can agree if you get a job as important as president, you should actually do it. One thing people do not realize is that being president, governor or mayor is more about efficient, subtle administration than politics. Look at Rudy and Mike. Clinton was an efficient administrator and a workaholic, even if you disagree with his politics. Larry

Justin- For those prices, you could afford any system you wanted mowing lawns! If you look hard enough and keep trying, you can find a decent way to make money. Larry

RoadHawg I think you failed to grasp the meaning of my comment about communism. Communism is a concept that predates Marx and our contempory vision of a Tyrannical Atheist entity. The original term comes from Christianity circa 400AD. However, you will never hear this in any high school textbook, only at the upper ends of higher education. Education seperates many of us on our opinions. It amuses me that "Christians" hold so strongly to like monogamy and life at conception that are more recent rulings(Look at the papal rulings of Pope Pius IV ). Less than a thousand years ago these weren't the case and the soul was considered to enter the body with the first breath and later at the quickening (the first movement in the womb- roughly equivalent to the begining of the second trimester). Reaction to sexual rulings were a major reason for the Bourbon uprising in France. Many of the works of Greek, or I should say ancient Athenian, authors were burned by the Church prior to the reformation, some of them lost forever. These writings were by people who believed in multiple gods, none of which were Judeo-Christian. Many were burned for reasons other than politics, such as homosexuality (if you want to know what the true meaning of "Platonic love" is, read Plato's Phaedrus in the section talking about love between two men, historians have proven this to be less innocent than what many teachers tried to contort it into- you'll laugh every time you hear someone use the term). Plato's Republic and Athenian Democracy were the prototypes our government was spawn from and the Aristotelian concepts of rhetoric have shaped the structure of many government entities. As far as the capitalism and greed issue, you need to take an intro to Macroeconomics course. Classical Economics (Capitalism is based on the writings of Adam Smith- The Wealth of Nations) attempts to use the concept of Rational Self Interest to fuel the economy. This basically creates a system to utilize and encourage the greed of individuals to fuel the national economy as a whole. This was extreemly conservative and created unstable economies. John Maynard (oops-not Alan) Keynes (a homosexual atheist) modified Smith's concept to create the foundation that our current economy is based on. This includes subsides, interest rate controls, illegalization of insider trading, anti-trust provisions, etc. In theory, Communism is a give-from-the-rich-to-the-poor, share everything system. However, like Christianity, the power within the system has been corrupted. The best way to think of communism is as a godless religion. In its original form- it is an embodyment of Christianity. However, it will never work for the same reason as Theocracies, it is too easy to take advantage of. Your assesment is like saying that Christianity is based on killing people of other faiths, fueling tyrants like Hitler, and forcing religion on indiginous peoples, which history also supports and some Muslims argue. Also Jefferson and Franklin were Unitarians, which is very loosely based in Christianity. However, their behavior was anything but moral- Bill Clinton looks like a saint next to them. Larry PS- if Christianity is such a moral power, then why do we consistantly have the highest murder rate despite having high church attendance comapred to the rest of the industrialized world? I think our greatness is based more in our strength in military and economy than our moral righteousness. Claiming otherwise is like the football players thanking God for being on their side at the end of the Superbowl, like God loves them more. And what about "blessed are the meek and the humble for they shall inherit the earth". I don't think many foriegners or most Americans would claim that we are either meek or humble. I am a Catholic, but the religious furvor in the public sector ticks me off. This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-01-2002 at 09:43 PM

I have to state that this country was founded by Christians, not Christian Ideals. Firstly, the concept of Democracy and the Republic are Greek, not Christian. For centuries, the Christians burned books pertaining to this and denounced these concepts. A modified monarchy or theocracy is closer to the ideal. Secondly, capitalism isn't very Christian either. Greed is a sin and even if you rename it "rational self interest" (A. Smith), it is the same concept. It is much easier to make an argument against capitalism using the Bible than for it. A theocratic, heirarchical communism is the closest to a true Christian foundation. After all, the original word and concept of "communism" comes from the debates during the formative years of the Catholic church over the role of the Church. These predate the rulings that proclaim monogamy, life at conception, and no birth control- all concepts held to by Christians today. While they basically agreed that the early Christians lived in poverty and shared everything from those who have the most to those who need the most, the idea came about that golden caldlestick holders and ornate churches would better show the glory of God- in order to spread the religion. (sounds familiar) However, there were some subdivisions that sought the original Christian vision, taking a vow of poverty and living simply. Perhaps the best examples of a society based on Christian ideals are Jesuit monks. There have also been proponents of Christian ideals that have tried to separate out the Christianity. The Christian Atheist (oxymoron) party in France and the Christian Democrat party in Gernmany are two examples. Generally these attempts are morally conservative, socialist parties. In the end we adopted a system that worked, based more on economic ideals than theological. A true Christian society would never have been successful. In addition to an inefficient economy, many people here would be excluded. Laws would be so strict that they would eliminate many of the freedoms we enjoy. I realize that mostly men are on this board, but women would be treated like second-class citizens. We would be reduced to a backwards theocracy like Iran. Even if the people want it, combining church and state should never happen. Remember Hitler (who put manditory prayer in schools and at all public meetings) was elected, and the German people even voted 2/3+ to eliminate their voting rights to remove him. The will of the people is not always right, which is why we have a Constitution in the first place. Larry This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-01-2002 at 02:08 PM

Wow- never thought I'd see this here HornEd- while I may disagree with you in surround choices, you are on target. I will try not to repeat what you have said, but to ad to it. Firstly- the rumors of unified Christian fundamentalism in the founding fathers is greatly exagerated. To my recollection Jefferson, Frankiln and others were Unitarians. For those not familiar, Unitarians promote a very loose interpretation of the bible. The Unitarian church where I went to college had pro-choice organization meetings and gay marriages. Secondly- From a historical standpoint, the combination of church and state has led to the greatest atrocities in history- Spanish inquisition, crusades, numerous wars in uk/ireland, the Nazi holocaust, terrorist bombings, Iran vs. Iraq, mass suicides, etc. While it may give some sense of morality- the combination also brings too much power and the blind allegance of too many people. Thirdly- All this talk about liberal courts is bull. Who appointed them? Look at the numbers. The "liberals" in the supreme court are to a large extent Nixon and Ford appointees. The naive conclusions of political allegance based on amateur interpretations of complex legal documents must end. The addition should have never have been put in place. It has caused an aversion to the country because of an imposition of religious language. Here in NY, you realize that this country is becomming much more diverse due to immigration. There are many legitimate points of view that I was not exposed to growing up in MO. In this case I support the court

Beast When I was your age I was mowing lawns like crazy. Even with a cheap push mower like I used, you can knock one out in less than an hour. Use a riding mower and it's even easier. Charge $20-$30 per typical subdivision sized lawn. The trick is getting a row of neighbors right next to each other. With a riding mower, you can make $50/hr easily (more than I make now). Granted, you probably won't have too many jobs, but a couple hundred a week can't hurt. And besides- all that pushing motion will get you ready to throw blocks in football. But remember- just about anything is worth your time right now. You have no bills and (depending on your parents) all the money you make goes to buying luxuries. Looking at marketing data for music, electronics, and movies- the luxury spending power of teenagers is amazingly high, so you may come under the impression that these circumstances will last your whole life. When you grow up, you will have to carefully allocate money after taxes and bills to get the things you want. I didn't see any of the money I made untill years later- my parents invested it in bonds that helped me pay for college. In the long run that is a good thing and I'm glad they did it. However, it was tough when, after working all day, I couldn't afford a cassette tape (remember those things?). Unless you have genuinely important obligations- go and get a job, even if it sucks. You'll have more spending money rather than playing the same video game over and over. good luck Larry

Here is a question- What kind of sound are you trying to absorb- do you want bass to sound less boomy or do you want to reduce room reflections? I am unclear what "slap echo" is. For equalization purposes, I would take the 1000Hz. According to the frequency response charts I've seen in magazines, Rf7's have a dip in the mid bass and a small rise in the midrange. However, neither of these solutions are specialized to tighten up bass. I would place foam in the corners first, then behind the listening area and on the side walls. Also, try angling your speakers in to lessen wall reflections. This message has been edited by lne937s on 06-26-2002 at 02:10 PM

My friend @ UPS was in Springfield Missouri and he was told to turn off the conveyor belt by his union supervisor. I had another friend who quit there because he couldn't stand the inefficiency. Most people in the midwest are not like that. There is also a job, given on the basis of patronage, that entails only opening and closing a gate. This person is not allowed to do anything else, and typically moves maybe once twice an hour. Maybe UPS is different in some locations but the stories I hear combined with my communiucations/experience with them in a number of different locations leaves me unimpressed. I don't want to bash unions too much- I firmly believe they have their time and place. However, many of them are overinflating the incomes of the lazy and uneducated. And, while the scumbags live here as well, to make it in the corporate world here it takes a lot of work. There is an amazing amount of competition, since the top spot is so high. The job market is amazingly tight, competition fierce, and- in this economy- market weak. I make more money from overtime than I do from my salary and rutinely pull all nighters. And the same can be said for everyone in my department- people don't see their families for several days at a time. I don't know about the rest of the city, but Madison Ave. is populated by workaholics. People seek this place out to have challenging careers- most of the people I know are transplants. As far as tax money goes- yes there are dead beats. However, as Rudy was proud to point out, NY pays significantly more in federal taxes than it recieves. It all breaks down to simple math. In NYC, what is consideded to be a typical single family home easily costs around $1,000,000 in addition to a required $500-$700/month upkeep contract(about the same as my parent's house payment). A Manhattan 1 bedroom apartment costs $1500- $2500 per month. In order to afford these prices, as well as the property taxes, people have to make more money. However, the tax brackets do not change- so a person pays more in federal taxes in relation to standard of living. In addition, tourism brings in taxes. On the cost side, while there may be more services, they are spread out over many more people. Making a one mile road for 20,000 people is much more cost effective than for 2. That figure doesn't even include all the commerce that passes through this city. It is amazingly easy to be lazy in the midwest. When I was in grad school, I payed all my bills working 2-3 days a week (I had to concentrate on school). I was always busy, but I had acquaintances who slacked off all the time and still had a relatively high standard of living. When rent is only $300 an month and food is cheap, you don't have to work very hard. People like that would be homeless here in a month. I found when I started being short with people that it isn't really rudeness, but that I really don't have time to talk to everyone I meet. I guess my point is- if you're going to do something, do it well. If you want a fun job- make sure it's really fun and you enjoy it. If you want to make money- make lots of it. If you want to work hard- do so. The only win-win situations in the real world are an illusion, and will catch up with you eventually. If you don't believe me, find me a well-paid environmental lawyer that doesn't work for an oil/chemical company. Do what you want, but don't pose as someone working hard while screwing around and milking the system. And remember- nobody owes you anything- count your blessings. Larry

Back to the harshness issue- While horns mechanically amplify the music, they also amplify all the flaws of the driver. Titanium domes, whether they are used as compression drivers or not, tend to ring around 7000Hz. The horn tends to amplify this, while it would be less noticable if the driver was surface mounted. Compensations for this can be made, but it boils down to trying to counteract basic physics. Avantguards use a non-metalic drivers that lessen this problem. A horn loaded ribbon tweeter would give the best of both worlds- the accuracy of a ribbon with the sensitivity of a horn. There are already ribbons out there with 94-96db sensitivity. Also, planar/ribbon drivers do not build up heat or the distortion that goes with it. Since current planar/ribbon drivers (which have advanced significantly) play very flat, the attunation is not as much of a problem. Also, in the attempt to increase sensitivity, iron core inductors are used on the low pass crossover and solid wire on the high pass. While they have low DC resistance, these inductors have unstable induction (low Q value). This leads to fluctuations in impedance that translate to varying amp loads and spikes in frequency response, especially witha 2000Hz crossover point (RF3). I can say from personal experience that swiching to large-guage, air-core on the low pass and Litz wire on the high pass cleans it up a lot (all Solen), as well as using fastcaps. Also on the impedence subject, dynamic (voice coil, magnet, cone/dome) drivers inherently create fluctuations in impedance. This can create harshness if the tweeter crossover goes over the resonant frequency of the driver without attunation. just my 2 cents Larry This message has been edited by lne937s on 06-25-2002 at 06:43 PM

Thanks for the suggestions. I had budgeted around $500 for a sub but need quality sound. I can go higher. I am currently recovering from getting my appendix out- but I want to get out there and hear these before I buy one. I am really Since having both quantity and quality is going to be very expensive, and since I can not use too much volume, I figured there was someone out there that took the quality over quantity approach. It has to be tight and fast. I'm going to use this mostly with music and my mains play flat to 50Hz and I will probably set the crossover close to that- so detail is key. There is no way I would ever buy anything from BO$E. Right now, I'm looking @ SVS 16-46. The Carver also sounds interesting. Any other suggestions. How about some simple DIY ideas (I don't have very much room for construction) or kits? thanks Larry

UPS makes great money, but I wouldn't recommend it. I had a friend who loaded trucks @ night in college. I heard stories about them kicking the boxes onto trucks and shutting off the conveyor belt to rack up overtime. It is amazing how irresponsible grown men can be. Then they go on strike and ask for more money. Don't get this job- it will make you lazy and convince you that screwing around all night is worth money. When you enter the real world, this mindset will backfire. Get a job that is fun, gets you outside, and, hopefully, intorduces you to attractive women. Try being a lifeguard. Buy a Mustang convertibe. You have to have interests beyond audio. You're only 17 once- enjoy it. Larry

I was getting my appendix out, so I haven't had time to reply. I like the suggestions so far, but want to make one thing clear- I do not need it to be loud I can't use a loud subwoofer. I need quality over quantity. Oh and cheap would be good to. I'll research those suggestions ASAP thanks Larry

Some observations While they might be rated as 8ohm speakers, when I was reworking the crossovers with Solen Litz wire, I discovered that for most practical purposes, RF3's are 6ohm speakers. I used a Hitachi G-class amp (needs at least 8ohms) to run mine and the protection circuit would go off at about half volume. Secondly, the power handling of most speakers is rated @ 1000 Hz. I'm not exactly sure what the Klipsch rating practices are, but this is pretty much standard. Using the G-class with bass heavy music, I would bottom them out at just about the time the protection switch went off (half volume)- the VU meters read around 150 W. These are 1970's electronics numbers- modern numbers are usually very inflated. Which leads to the next observation- Rating depends on the amp. I think Denon is better than most, but most amp figures are inflated. A 125W per channel $750 amp is going to put out much less actual, clean power than multiple $5000 monoblocks rated @ 75W each. However, larger capacity amps generally can provide more clean power at low wattages than smaller ones. However, unless you have a huge room, the limitation should be placed on how much hearing loss you want to have. After listening to my RF3's at high volumes in a pretty large room, my ears rang for 3 days. While this might seem cool @ first- you eventually end up turning it down. Hearing loss is a real concern. I think a high quality- low power amp is better off in the long run. Larry

I want to buy a subwoofer, but I live in a small apartment in Brooklyn. I do not need it to be loud and would not even be able to use it a high volume. I just want something to fill out the bottom octave for music. Here's what I do want: Relatively cheap Good Xover Plays low Tight relatively small no distortion fast- it has to keep up with my mains any suggestions? Larry

My recommendation to all those trying to influence other's decisions- Try to get them to buy the best product possible but remember a few things things: A. That you have to make the decision conform to their needs/preferences. Basic micro-marketing. Example: If someone has their mind set on a Bose-sized stereo, do not try to sell them an all heritage-sized system. You are better off trying to sell them on a Quintet system or other quality sub/sat system. If you do not attempt to meet their initial likes/dislikes- you will lose their interest. B. Always negotiate. Show them the ultimate, but plan on having them buy the intermediate. This way they have a reasonable (in the true sense of the word) offering rather than the high priced-high quality vs. low price-low quality opposition. C. Value- show them the cost effectiveness of their decision. Bose should not be compared to a $10k system but to one of approximately the same price- use this as a base line. There are superior products from a number of manufacturers (basically all), not just Klipsch. This might be somewhat advanced, but make sure you show him a third alternative (breaks dialectic oppositions- creates synthesis which will lead to a new understanding of the whole process- Hegel). Offer him a real option to show that you are not closed minded and show him the differences (Maybe Maggies, B&W, Revel, etc). If you want to increase price, show him what he gets for each incrimental change. Like auctions, once you get someone hooked, they will keep increasing the price. But make sure that you don't increase it so high that they have second thoughts. At 17 you probably don't have a full grasp at the value of money yet, so try to keep this in mind. D. It's not your money- when it comes down to it you have to remember that he earned it and that gives him the right to spend it any way he wants. If he wants to blow all his money in scotch and strippers, he can do so. All you can do is recommend. Calling him crazy doesn't help. Remember that the system you are proposing costs about as much as a new Korean car,a used muscle car, or the annual salary of a minimum-wage full-time employee- some people have different priorities. Not everyone needs a system that can be heard a block away or can cause permenant hearing loss- something smaller may be in order. E. It's a two way street. Give him some effort. You are a seventeen year old who is questioning the importance of education, "contemplating" getting a summer job, and expecting your father to buy you a fantastic luxury that most of us have to work our butts off to come close to. He has no obligation to provide you with any AV equipment at all. If you want all this stuff- get perfect grades, work hard, and listen to your father (if not about speaker choices). Larry

Get a job. its great experience. Then you can stop pestering your father for the stuff you want and actually earn it (or at least make a significant enough contribution to make him feel ok about helping you out). My father would never have even considered buying the system you are suggesting. He'd tell me to get a job and stop whining. Get a manual labor job- you can get outside, get some exercise, build some muscle (chicks dig that), and learn some respect for money. Also, since you haven't finished school yet- it is pretty much the best paying area for you to work in. You have your whole life to sit behind a desk. Maybe it's just that Midwest work ethic speaking (I'm originally from Missouri) but learning to work is very important. I started mowing lawns when I was 10 and have been working ever since. After that, I did some construction (hod-carrying= lifting 70lbs of bricks or mortar over your head, up scaffoldings all day long), stocked groceries, worked in a restaurant, ran political campaigns (don't expect much money there), temped, and done other odd jobs before I entered my profession. do it- it's good for you Larry

I have to start out by saying that some Klipsch can be harsh- if you use them as near-field studio monitors. Horns have projection and dispersion characteristics that are idealized for fairly large rooms and high volume. Try to find a studio monitor that is horn loaded or a concert hall speaker that isn't- application is important. Also, horn resonance @ around 7K hertz (especially with metal horns) can cause harshness, but a propperly set up crossover network and dampening the horn can correct this. I recently went to a high-end hi-fi store on the upper east side (appointments preferred, ring a bell to get in, speakers upto and over $100k). I personally listened to speakers, using the same test cd, in the $5K range. IMHO B&W's (at least in this price range) don't have very much detail and seem to have coloration at about 5k Hz. Revel sound pretty good in their listening room. However, I was really impressed by Magnepan 3.6's, which have been criticized by some for being harsh also, even though they test amazingly flat (they include a high-pass resistor for this reason). To my ear, they were magic- amazing detail, room filling sound, lifesized imaging, and no noticable peaks of valleys. However, they eat up power, take some work for placement, and are not as loud or sensitive as Klipsch. Overall, you're hearing adjusts just like your eyes adjust (wear blue tinted sunglasses all day and, when you take them off, everything will look pink). Since many people listen to music on tv speakers or Bose (which we know are by no means accurate), their perception is altered. But have you ever seen anyone mistake a recorded voice on one of these speakers for a real one. By listening to Klipsch, your hearing also adjusts, but to a much higher standard. Yes, sometimes they sound harsh, but sometimes live performances also sound harsh. best wishes Larry

I have to say that grades are very important, especially if your parents are not millionaires. My little brother made one B in high school and competed in science competitions. During college, he never had a job, got no money from scholarships, and had no loans. After paying for tuition, housing, and all other expenses, he had enough money left over from scholarships to invest, ending up (including the money he had saved up for college but never spent) with over 50k in investments. During college, he also made one B in a challenging Computer Science program. He made $24/hr plus benefits at an INTERNSHIP with HP (Most interns work for free or, if they're lucky, make minimum wage). Upon graduation he got a job in St. Louis designing flight simulator software for only $60K (he had been turning down jobs for up to $80 while he was a junior, but that was before the downturn in the tech job market). I didn't do as well in high school, making mostly B's. During college, I had to work to support myself. I did OK. In Grad school, I made mostly A's (C's are failing grades in grad school, make 2 and you're out). Now I work in advertising. Even though entry level advertising doesn't pay very well and the economy has hit the industry really hard, there is a lot of possibility for advancement. You still have to work really hard and intelligently (60-70 hrs a week). When you look at the people making 6-7 figures you see what all the hard work is for. It can be hard at the entry level when you see the kids who graduate High School with you who are making almost $40k screwing bolts into Fords because of some BS union contract, but you have to remember that they will still be screwing in bolts for about the same money 20 years from now. In addition, I get to work on international marketing strategies while they get to screw in bolts. I think that HS grades are important for teaching you how to work and getting you ready for college. In college, you learn just as much about people and maturity as you do academically. College gives you the unique opportunity to try new ideas and approaches in ideal environments and (unless you get carried away) have very few negative consequences when you screw up. And you will have some of the best times of your life. However, the higher up you go, the more important grades become. Now, if your dad is a billionaire legacy, he can buy your way into a good school with contirbutions and pay your way through. However, he could also probably buy you the contacts and give you a high payed BS job you need to succeed (Tommy Boy). However, I would tell you to keep you grades up simply because high school is so amazingly easy that if you apply yourself you can make the grades unless you are and idiot (in which case BOSE has some speakers for you). Laziness and lack of focus are horrible habits to get yourself into and really hard to break. I have seen many people have the military beat the laziness out of them, but it's better not to have to rely on others to motivate you. Make the grades Larry This message has been edited by lne937s on 06-12-2002 at 04:01 PM