Mallette

Managed to sneak off to Half-Price Books and Records for a short time yesterday. My wife had picked up a wonderful stack of vinyl there as a stocking stuffer Christmas so I was looking forward to it. I was a bit disappointed as stock was pretty low. Due to this, I purchased things I might not have otherwise if there had been a plethora of choices. One such album was a "Direct Master, 16 Track Audiophile Recording Audio Encores AE-1003: JAN AND DEAN." (Patiently waiting for storms of laughter and hoots of derision to subside) So I broke the seal this morning...yes, unopened (what a surprise!). Now, it's been said that anyone who claims to remember the 60's wasn't there, but I can assure you of this: they damn sure didn't sound this good. A pristine 128 gram pressing cut straight from A-80VU24 to a Scully lathe controlled by the CBS "Discomputer." The "Discomputer" controlled depth and width from a preview head on the tape deck. Best I can tell the performance was done in 1980. I am surprised that anybody, including Jan and Dean, cared by that time. The sound? Unbelievable. "Ride the Wild Surf" with strings is a TRIP. Whole thing makes we want to hope in the woody and head for CA. I'm certain it would effect others the same way for different reasons...but hey, different strokes. This disc was labeled as a series, so there must be others. They'd be a good bet if this one is an indication of the quality. I am having second thoughts about one I did not purchase. It was an Italian "History of RocknRoll" disc containing the best of Jimi Hendrix. The back was a catalogue of some FIFTY albums containing everyone you've every heard of, and some you haven't. My assumption was that this was a pirate disc. That did not bother me so much as my fear that it had been master from a cassette or something. It was sealed. Well, you never know... Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Interesting. As opposed to most threads, I can think of nothing that has not been already covered in regards to loudness controls. What they did, how they were designed, what happened to them, and what the attitudes towards them were and are. Fletcher-Munson was not just a good idea. It's the LAW. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

The loudness contour could actually be useful. I had a Lux integrated in the '70's that had a loudness contour that decreased as you turned up the volume. With the Rectilinear IV speakers I had at the time (well, actually still have in the garage), it matched very nicely. I suspect it has gone the way of bass/treble controls on serious gear...off with the prejudices of the golden ear. As long as you can bypass them completely, I say bring'em on. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Let's hope tomshardware.com reviews it soon. They get pretty thorough. I did a search and only came up with two sites in languages I couldn't even recognize. Went anyway hoping to at least be able to spot "24/96." No luck. If the specs are good, and it supports 24/96, and costs 500.00 or less, this may well be the path to a good quality CD player for the budget conscious. As a homebrew computer geek, it certainly has my attention. I do not have a Dolby Digital decoder, either (Soundblaster Live software does an adequate job of making Dolby ProLogic out of DVDs), so that would be an added benefit. Of course, that's a bunch of ifs. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Thanks for the corrected links and search results! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Ahhhhhhhhhh.... What did you say? Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Can't locate specs. Both URL's go to the picture, and I couldn't locate the board on the site. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Woooo.... Read mdeneen's MP3/RR piece last night and decided to wait to see if it were a joke or not. I still assume it must be. MP3 has its place...near deaf people, automobiles, etc. I've used them to send edits to people I've recorded for approval, but that is about it. As to RR quality, they were providing "reel" high fi when nothing else could. I certainly agree that there is really only a place for them in nostalgia today. I own a Teac and a Sony, but, like others, they are relegated to storage as I've transferred most of the old material. I've two DBX outboard units that could easily extend the range to >90db. They were capable of fabulous sound. However, the modern equivalent would be, as mdeneen partially suggested, HDD...but to reach even 7.5ips DBX encoded quality on Ampex 457 tape will require at least a Card Deluxe and recording at 24/96. BTW, amongst others, I've a Beatles release on RR that ROCKS. Probably pretty valuable, though I've never checked it out. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

So why do you figure that PWK said ALWAYS the long wall? Anyway, I do not have available corners on the short wall. Guess I'll need to pray for a lonely Heresy to appear on Ebay... Interestingly, I was standing at my preamp after putting on a 78 and switched to mono. The sound suddenlly imaged right in the middle of my ears. Startling. From my listening position, such image diffused. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Several things to toss in here. Mdeneen: Yes, I have PCM playback. I have a Sony RM-500 DAT deck that I use for location recording (amateur mostly, paid when I can get it). I always record at 16/44.1 to avoid transcoding. Unless I am badly mistaken, the audio CD format is just that, a file format. When I dump to hard drive, I dump in the pure digital domain and only the file type information changes from the DAT deck to a WAV file. The information is not altered. This is where I learned just how crappy my Sony CD player was. The sound of the DAT master was much superior in all ways to the CD's I burned. The sound from the HDD, while not quite as good as the DAT, was better than the CD's. Wondering it something was happening to the files, I reversed the process by dumping the CD back to a DAT tape. The sound was identical to the master. Just yesterday I listened to a clarinet/piano recital I recorded. The sound was the best I get from any source I own, including my LP rig, which is not exactly a audiophile grade (hope to fix that SOON). The clarinet is so real it is frightening. As to the artifacts of LP or 78's...yes, they are quite annoying. However, one simply ignores it for the beauty of the music. Even my oldest, most worn 78's have such presence and sense almost of time travel to the source that the noise simply cannot compete. With a really bad CD, there is still no such noise, but it seems sort of like trying to fill up on rice cakes...you just never quite get satisfied. Now, on a different tack but still germane subject, I've contacted the Japanese manufacturer of the laser turntable and told them of the large numbers of folks in the Klipsch forum interested in or devoted to the LP. I had noticed that they offered to do IN HOME demos when they had enough to make a trip from Japan worthwhile. My hope is that they will be even more interested in demoing to a significant group of horn heads in MY house. 6000.00 is out of my price range for a turntable...but there are those on the list who can afford it, and at least I'd get to play with it. Lots of questions about what such a device might sound like...all the problems of LP and CD combined? I suppose that's the worst case. In theory it could be wonderful, and there is probably no reason the price could not decline to a thousand or so with significant volume...after all, they started out at 25k. No idea whether or how they will respond, but will let you all know. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

As a Khorn owner, moving the speakers around is not an option. My room is about 15X26. The speakers are on the long wall. The sound is, of course, awesomely accurate, especially piano and the hard stuff. Bass is accurate to the lowest organ pipes I have in source material, which includes some Telarc DD and the like. There is rarely an image in the startling, 3D sense. I am reasonably certain that a center speaker would change this situation. Unfortunately, my audio budget is maxed for a while, and though I have a significant inventory of speakers, not a one of them is efficient enough to be heard...not even with your ear directly in front of a driver. In fact, I connected a center speaker retired from my HT setup and had to use a headphone across the leads just to be satisfied there was a signal at all. As my center (and rear) channels are passive from a Dyna Quadaptor circuit, extra amplification is not an option. Now, I'd like to pose something of a hypothetical analysis of PWK's point 7 of the 8Card. Since we all know: 1. Excellent imaging is possible from two speakers. 2. PWK was a genius. then he was either wrong or we are out of context. Here is my thought. The 8Card deals only with horn-loaded systems, and PWK considered any other type (including his own systems not 100% horn loaded) to be a compromise. Since the corner horn was what he considered to be the perfect speaker, the 8Card primarily references same and the logic and issues discussed therein likewise. >He insisted the horns be placed on the long wall. Suggested reason why: Only one sweet spot is produced by corner horns properly placed. The closer together the speakers, the closer to the speakers this angle occurs. Since the farther from big horns, the better, long wall placement. There may have been other minor, but signifcant thinking such as that seating would often be require right in the center of a short wall placement, and the speaker projected image would actually cross from behind this point. While a good stereo image would probably occur at a single, small point, it would be very touchy and diminish the commercial appeal of the already not-easy-to-get-next-to beasties. >He states uncategorically that a center channel is required. If you accept the above, the speaker placement (in my case over 20') is unlikely to produce an accurate stereo image. In certain rooms, it might, but in most cases probably not. The cure: a center speaker to fill in the gap. The above is simply a hypothesis. Like theologists, some of us consider the 8 Cardinal Rules to be the canons of our belief. When what is written there conflicts with experience, we must try to determine PWK's logic and assumptions in order to avoid spiritual distress. Any of the Old Hope School care to comment (or anyone else). Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Well, Mr. Homeless, your fame on the list is well deserved. One of the things I've always known in my guts, but really have no way of quantifying is the question of "Just how much of the original information is really in a 16/44.1 CD?" Seems mathmatically that almost all of it is interpolated from what is, for the real world, a very minute sampling of the original material. Now, just what, if anything, that means is open to debate...as we've seen. As to Dean's question, I can certainly state that an old Dual 1210 with a 40.00 Grado cartridge playing a 78 will yield a better, more musical, more exciting sound than the same 78 transferred through any process I've ever experienced. I gave up purchasing 78 reissues because they always seemed to have all of the problems of the technology (pops, surface noise, limited dynamic range, limited frequency response, etc.) and none of the excitement that Bix Biederbecke or Paul Whiteman could raise. However, the original disks have all that. I cannot explain the technical reasons for this as well as Mr. Homeless may have done, but it is no hallucination (I've had those too). In the LP arena, my basic rule of "How much" basically works out that I've yet to hear a CD player at any price match any turntable/cartridge combo that spun at least close to speed, had at least rumble low enough not to waste your woofer, flutter that doesn't make a flute sound like its under water, and a stylus not so worn as to recut the disc. You can get that pretty cheap, Dean. What did you pay for your CD player? Actually, that is my problem with digital. I can't afford a CD player that sounds decent...and I truly believe there is one. If it weren't for analog, I couldn't play at all. My Khorns were a bargain compared to what decent digital goes for. Anyway...good stuff, MH. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

While I have my pet theories, we are in agreement on the base issue. There IS a difference. Just what it is would make any of us quite famous and able to afford a really spiffy system if we could demonstrate it. The number of people returning to or discovering analog truly astonishes me. Certainly still, and likely to remain, a commercially insignificant group (to the big boys...not to the entrepreneurial audiophile), but still a lot of folks. Probably the most extraordinary thing is the number of younger folks who have little or no exposure to the LP that are going ape **** . I love it! But it is still all about the music, and I really don't care how it arrives as long as it does. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Clipped and CJK: There is much to what you are saying. The first "live or recorded" demo was done in the acoustic days well before electrical recording. A live violinist and a gramophone were set up behind curtains...and, surprise, the audience was unable to tell which was which. Seems ridiculous now, but it is all about EXPECTATIONS and ear training. Our TVs, even HD sets, are terrible at producing anything like reality. Besides the cartoon colors, they are FLAT as a pancake. The image equivalent of mono. They will not even fool a cat or dog (thought the sound will). However, we go on and on about how beautiful our TV images are. Audio is far more advanced than video, but we should not be fooled into thinking we've truly approached reality. Our grandchildren will not be impressed with our systems or sources. Many suggest the percieved advantage of SACD to be in it's sample rate. That would imply that the 44.1 rate is the audio equivalent to "pixelated" compared to SACD. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Deang: Amazing how much gets lost in email..either that or just how badly I write! >To rip CDs to WAV files still entails handling CDs. Not sure what you are commenting on here. If there is a point here, it's that you can put your CD's away and don't have to handle them. >Also, WAV files are still just 0s and 1s and I fail to see how this process gives you more than what you started with. That is, you start with a certain amount of binary information and you end with the same amount of binary information. I guess I dont fully understand. Perhaps I didn't explain well. You have EXACTLY what you started with, nothing more. See below for more on this. > On another note, how does this process compare to a player at 2 times the price? I would be really interested in more detail regarding the equipment, software, and exact process you undertake to achieve the results you describe (Im not always the brightest light in the chandelier). Your mileage may vary. What I am suggesting is that when you by, say, a Card Deluxe at 500.00, you are getting much more than if you have to buy a case, power supply, transport, etc. made by a high-end audio outfit. The Card Deluxe was compared directly to a 15,000.00 Levinson DAC in (believe it or not), $tereophile. It is my opinion that you can build a better sounding CD player using a computer at much less cost than buying a dedicated CD player. >That do you mean by "transcoding". Simplistically, re-wording of a sound file. I only use programs that change only the file type, not the information, and bypass the soundcard entirely. Dithering from 24/96 to 16/44.1 would be an example of transcoding. Right now I am using CDEx, which is free and really very nice. As to the rest addressed mdeneen, I've problems with some of your logic. However, I can dodge that as it was not addressed to me:-> However...if your levels are high enough to affect a turntable on a proper pedestal (with at least a 150 lbs. or so of gravel in it) your hearing is probably at risk. Be careful...no fun being an audiophile with bad ears. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Generally either agree or have no evidence to disagree with mdeneen on this. However, regardless of the numbers, separation on an LP can appear to be near absolute. Revolver is an example. Ping-Ping if I ever heard it. Same holds true for Firesign Theatre LP's and many others. Heck, I get startling sounds from BEHIND me with FT at times using nothing but the old Hafler passive DynaQuad unit. One approach to testing your theory would be to record a CD to a top-end reel to reel. You'd have analog, and then could apply the other tweaks. "The truth is out there" I certainly agree there is nothing wrong with digital in theory, and often point out that we had 100 years to perfect analog but only a couple of decades with digital. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Sorry... In the post above, grandiose statement 2., I meant to say "...soundcard in refurb 300mhz or better computer (less than 200.00 from many sources on the net)..." ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Sometime in the late '70's when CD's were first being introduced, a music therapist in old folks homes somewhere in the NW (I believe) by the name of Diamond wrote an article for Stereo Review. It was the first questioning of "perfect sound forever" I ever read. What Diamond noticed was that the oldsters did not react the same to the CD's, even though it was the same music, that they had to analog. They did not quiet down and listen, and seemed bored. As the guy had no bone to pick nor horse in the technological race, he kicked up quite a storm. The debate raged for a few months, but the "analog is dead, get over it" crowd eventually shouted it down and this debate pretty much disappeared for the next 10 years or so. However, as more music lovers and audiophiles experienced the same phenomenon, often kicking and screaming, it has re-emerged. As I've said elsewhere in the forum, I do not believe it is the nature of digital itself that is at fault. My own location digital recordings, mastered in 44.1/16, are as satisfying to my ears as my vinyl. However, only a handful of commercially released CD's out of a couple of hundred I own get even close. I've put together a few rules I think worthy of debate and experiment to see if you agree. 1. A cheap turntable (properly set up and in good condition) will sound MUCH better than a cheap CD player. >'nuf said...just try it. 2. A 500.00 computer/soundcard will sound better than a 500.00 CD player. >A Terratec or better (Card Deluxe is perhaps the best) soundcard in refurb 300mhz or better computer (less than 200) will provide CD playback equal to or better than a dedicated CD player at twice the price. Further, ripping CD's to WAV files (without transcoding!) is far more convenient than handling CD's. 3. Something happens in the commercail chain to what probably started out as a really fine recording. >Actually, probably a number of things. I don't know what...I just know that my own 16/44.1 recordings made with a 1000.00 DAT deck sound better than their studio-produced discs. 4. It isn't just vinyl, 78's and reel-to-reel recordings also sound better than the majority of CD's. >In either medium, thier is a sense of space, and open, airy MUSICALITY that seems to be absent from most CD's. Anyway, there you have it. I've had people react exactly as all you have described above, including to 78 rpm material. This phenomenon is real. It is not imagined. I do not care where good music comes from, as long as it does. It took me 20 years to finally become convinced of these things...but if you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Very timely. I've used no EQ whether available or not for a long time. I've had my horns for about two weeks now, and am faced with a quandary. My preamp, a Super PAS4i, has no EQ. Never figured I'd need it. However, I dragged out an old Radio Shack bass EQ yesterday just to see what would happen. With about 6db boost at 80hz I was somewhat pained to find the whole system sounded much more natural. The "edge" seemed off the high end...perhaps mainly due to my reducing the overall level due to the increased bass. Rather than just more bass, the whole thing seemed much more natural. Unfortunately, this old unit has an unacceptable hum that renders it unusable on a long term basis. Further, I feel downright dirty feeling that Khorns should benefit from EQ when my no account speakers of the past did not. Between the imaging issue (thread elsewhere) and this I feel a bit of reality check from my unabashed high of a week or so ago. On truly pure material, such as my master tapes of recitals and such I've recorded, the reality is truely excellent. However, the majority of my commercial material, whether analog or digital, seems to share this bass-shy, edgy high end quality needing a bit of EQ. Bummer. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Certainly no hurt feelings here. If you aren't learning, you aren't living. Not so sure it is the spacing. When I was testing the little Fraziers that are now in the rear, I had them in the same corners up on a set of floor-standing Advent Lauretes. When playing 78's, there was an almost unnerving phantom center image that was apparent even to non-audiophiles. As you will recall, these speakers are quite small. So I still do not know the answer to the question posed by the thread. However, I do know what PWK said in point 7 of the 8Card. Perhaps, as he was dedicated to horns, he simply did not address other types of speakers which might well produce an image with only two. Having Gil over was an eye opener. It is rare that I've had educated ears in the house, and I hope to do so more often. One needs an objective listener from time-to-time, as I suspect the brain adapts to whatever you are hearing unless someone else whose opinion you respect pulls away the curtain. I am certainly looking forward to being rid of the HK Citation. I've become tired of its edgy sound. I only had the ST-70 hooked up for about half an hour, but that was enough to recognize its superior qualities even though it is in unmodified 35 year old condition. Unfortunately, that condition also meant that the left channel began to fade away and I decided to take it off line until it can be rebuilt properly rather than risk some cap popping 110 through it or something. Thanks again for the ear, Gil. Hope you can make it back sometime. On the 10th, I'll have between 6 and 10 good Klipsch forum ears over and perhaps will learn even more! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

I just had list member Gil McDermott over this weekend. My Khorns have only been in place for a week, and I've been so overwhelmed with the mind-boggling realism of the music imaging really hadn't crossed my mind. As usual, having another audiophile drop by provides objective imput. Gil has Fortes in his office...I'm not sure what at home, but I presume it is not Khorns. His first comment was that he expected more of a soundstage. After listening a few moments, I could see his point, and rather than my opinion, may I offer PWK's? No one seems to have done so in this thread so far. This is a summary of point 7 from the 8 Cardinal Rules as used in advertising material: 7. Accurate Spatial Values To localize reproduced sound sources in their original spatial relationship requires three widely spaced speakers, regardless of size or type. Doesn't sound like he left much wiggle room there. PWK either knew what he was talking about or he didn't. I think he did. I intend to place at least a Heresy in the center at some point, La Scala or Belle if the Ebay gods smile. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Haven't tried that. List member Gil McDermott visited Saturday and I was unable to duplicate it using the same material. After the fact, I found that I'd inadvertently left the amp in mono after playing a 78. May try again today. Of course, if it goes away I shall not be too sad. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

However, a 64' pipe will produce sub-20hz material in abundance. The famous John Wanamaker organ of Philadelphia is such a beast, and stood alone in this regard for many years. Dan Garland will be building an organ with 64' pipes in Wichita Falls, TX. There are not many with such pipes. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

As a DFW citizen, I am very proud of the Meyerson and the Lay organ...but still objective, I hope. There are great performances, great instruments, and great recordings. Even two out of three is pretty rare. As I said, I am looking forward to this CD with great anticipation. Knowing you listen with skepticism as well makes me look forward to it even more. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Nope, 1976 models. I've not pursued this further as it has only occured on that one disc. I belive it to be an aberration, though I intend at some point to pull the unit out so I can access the m driver and see if I can pin it down. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century

Can't wait to check it out. No sub, but I think the Khorns are up to it. I've heard the Lay organ from its dedication through several seasons. As an organ freak, I've finally come to the conclusion it is not as spectacular as the reviews would indicate, at least in my opinion. Not sure whether it is the depth of the housing or what, but it never seems to achieve true "in your face" power. Don't get me wrong...its like a second-rate Michaelangelo. Looking forward to the CD. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century