DRBILL

That is beautiful work! I have one on the bench just now for a complete restoration. Ive got to get an order off to Ned! Father Bill

As PWK used to say, "Now, if sombody will just invent a miniature 32' wavelength!"

We are enjoying his cornwalls! DR BILL

I had the same experience. Take the grill off and GENTLY push the cone in and out using all five fingers in a circle. You will hear the voice-coil rubbing on the armature. The speaker frame is made of Swanson's pie pans and is easily bent in transit (this was not a finer moment for Klipsch). Inspect it carefully after removing it and you will see in which direction it is tilted. Carefully return it to square, retest for rubbing, repeat if necessary. Put it all back together. Enjoy. DR BILL

Our music room is 20x12x8. We have excellent corners. The Klipschorns are on the long wall. A (additive phantom chanel) Cornwall is in the center. A sofa is on the other long wall. No carpets. All Williamson driven. If it gets any better than this my wife will have to call the mortuary. As a footnote, ceiling fans can cause faux doppler distortion! Turn them off for serious listening. DR BILL

I just finished restoring another Williamson (Heath W-4) tube amplifier which included all new caps and tubes and a power transformer (this sounds like making stone soup!). Maybe I'm too sensitive, but there was just too much hum. On a whim, and with a little trepidation, I grounded the unused center tap of the filament winding. Magic! Now my question is why this wasn't included in the original design. Is this going to cause more trouble down the line? Father Bill

I'll offer up Austin's name at Mass tomorrow. Be strong. Father Bill+

BOB & GILL, et al It had to be an "burning-in" situation. It gradually abated, then vanished completely over a week's heavy use. We may never know. Thanks for your suggestions. BILL+

The old man is stumped! I just rebilt a DYNA MK-IV. It had a bad filter capacitor which I replaced. The choke tests good. I still have a VERY faint 120 HZ hum, rich in harmonics. Through any other speaker than Klipsch, you probably wouldn't notice it. Anybody have a suggestion? The original cap was 20-20-20-30 (no longer made). The substitute is 20-20-20-40. The 40 is the first stage that feeds the choke. My inclination is to hang another cap across the 40 under the chasis. If so, what value? BILL

Bob, I'm afriad I misspoke. I was unable to find the booklet, either. The schematic is really all you will need. Sorry. DR BILL

OK. The kid was crying out for help. Cut him some slack. Scolding him will just close his mind further. FATHER BILL

BOB Get the manual and schematic free on-line at www.triodeel.com/schindex.htm DR BILL+

I do a lot of DYNAKIT rebuilding. Everything that has been said about how fragile the board is is true. It doesn't look as nice, but I clip the old leads off near the component and solder the new stuff on to these. Go ahead and replace the filter caps. As long as you have the iron hot and the unit unwrapped, it makes sense. That's a sweet little amp. You will like it with highly efficient speakers. Don't worry if the volume control doesn't go up to "11"! That has much to do about the "slope" of the control and how it is wired. Apples and oranges. Yes, you need to test the tubes! I don't know everything, but I'll be happy to be stumped if you run into trouble. You have probably looked at all the links for DYNACO advice and parts. If not, let me know, and I'll mention my favorites. Good luck! DR BILL

Well, you are terribly brave. Unfortunatly, the wheel has already been invented. I sincerely wish you the best of luck. Let us all know what you find. Accidents sometime result in flashes of light that transform everything. Father Bill+

It is not a bad story. As PWK was known to say, "To each his'n!" You sound like the sort of disciplined person whose gain controls don't go up to "11"! FATHER BILL+

---------------- On 12/26/2002 8:37:48 PM cornwaller wrote: Good one! Oh yes, the new breed of cutting edge carbon based (bassed) woofers. Part of the new wave 'organic' componentry. What was their impeeeedence again? Cornwaller ---------------- Arf ohms.

How many times did Paul say it? "You can't make what you can't measure, because you don't know when you have got it made." But in all truth, when it comes to audible perception, some things are very hard to measure. In psychology, there is the concept of "gestalt" --phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable from its parts in summation. That's an academic way of saying that our minds "fill in the gaps". Sure, Klipschorns fall off precipitously below 30 or so Hz. But they don't just stop there. There is still enough energy radiated in the octave below that to cause a candle to flicker or to make a wall vibrate to the touch of fingers. And I might point out that the human ear follows about the same response curve as Klipschorns. In the case of a 32' organ pipe at low CCCC, the fundamental is c. 16 Hz. If you were standing in the midst of a cathedral or recital hall and such a note were sounded, you would not "hear" the fundamental. You might feel it in your chest. But from the rich harmonic structure or the note, your mind would fill in the fundamental through "gestalt". The same is true if you hear this same note faithfully produced through Klipschorns. There might be just the slightest suggestion of the fundamental. But because the harmonic structure is so faithfully reproduced by the K's, your "gestalt" will fill in the gaps. In our bedroom we have six Klipsch speakers for "theater sound". I seldom hear much fundamental from the 15" sub. It likes to favor the octave as an exaggeration. That's OK. The dinosaurs still stomp around convincingly. It still tricks the ears and the windows rattle. But is it hardly a faithful reproduction of anything but the sound engineer's fancy. And notice how quickly the ear tires and how the wife insists that you turn the damned thing down. In summation, I wouldn't consider for a second adding subs to K's. Enjoy the pristine clarity. Your mind will fill in the gaps. Wont it be fun to see where this thread goes! Check out MATCHED WOOFERS. I wish you a happy new year. Make many friends and enough money to feed the Klipsch habit! FATHER BILL+

HAPPY NEW YEAR! FATHER BILL+

Yes, everything you say is true. But the K doesn't just stop suddenly at a given frequency. After I read your reply I hooked up my IG-5282 audio generator to my K's through my ST-70 and set it at c. 16Hz. (That's pretty much low CCCC fundamental of a 32' organ pipe.) What did I hear? NOTHING! Then I noticed the flame in one of my wife's scented candles. It was going wild. Then I put my hand on the back wall (sheetrock). It was about to work the nails out. Yes, the K's frequency response "drops like a rock" below 50 or so Hz. But at 16 Hz it doesn't take much energy to move the large area of a back wall. And, for the record, when I listen to music, I sit on a comfortable sofa with my head resting on the back wall. Ergo: Visceral, draft producing, 16 Hz. In my former life I was a voicer/finisher for Casavant Freres, Limitee, the largest and oldest pipe organ manufacturer in N. America (Canada). I could write another dissertation on standing waves and cancellation of low frequency tones in areas of less than one wave length. Just because you can't measure them by the usual methods doesn't mean that they aren't there. Sometimes you just have to touch the wall! If you are ever in Fort Worth, look us up. You'll get a good dinner and a fair glass of wine and a stunning Klipschorn demonstration and more conversation than you can stand. Father Bill+

Dear PJK, I am certain that your proposal would work. But you must understand that "Old F---s" are driven by the principle of parsimony --the most simple solution rules. PWK himself, when proposing the 4 ohm tap (2PH3) center channel called it "The simplest and most efficient way---." "This is self balancing, (and) uses the least equipment." See where we are coming from? (Anybody out there remember Rube Goldburg?) Thanks for your interest in this subject and your interesting contribution. Father Bill+

Gil, From the number of hits on this subject I assume that there is considerable interest --probably because of the new-found admiration of vacuum tube equipment and the possibilities they present. I found John Eargle's "Stereophonic Localization: an Analysis of Listener Reactions to Current Techniques" in IRE Transactions on Audio (V.AU-8 #5 September-October 1960) to which you referred. On page 170, fig. 3, there is a detail that would be easy to miss in casual observation. The four ohm tap on amplifier "A" is grounded and what normally would be the common is the output. Amplifier "B" is wired in the usual fashion. The center channel (with the L-Pad) is taken from the (ungrounded) common of amplifier "A" and the 4 ohn tap of amplifier "B". The left and right speakers are connected to the common and 4 ohm taps in the usual fashion. This would seem to solve the "additive" problem. You could not do this with a typical stereo amplifier because the commons are almost always tied together internally and grounded. If you are using separate mono amplifiers for left and right, there should be no problem and it would be a solderless phantom "additive" center solution. Kids, don't even think about trying this with solid state! The next thing you hear will not be music! Father Bill+

Thanks, Gil, for the thorough and clear explanation which jogged my memory and caused me to unpack my large box of Klipsch papers. Sure enough, I found his "Stereophonic Sound with Two Tracks, Three Channels By Means of a Phantom Circuit (2PH3)" (Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, April 1958 v.6 #2) in which he proposed the same circuit that he drew for me on the back of a church service leaflet! There was a slight difference in that the left channel went to the 16 ohm tap, the right channel to the 8 ohm tap, and the center channel to the two 4 ohm taps. In my drawing, he only used the 8 and 4 ohm taps. Interestingly, there is an Appendix to this paper dated June 1960. Paul wrote: "...(I) disagree with the author of my former paper." (!) "...the "difference" derived center channel signal may fall short of perfection in some instances, although for most stereophonic program material it is indistinguishable from the performance of a circuit with a "sum" derived center channel. Certainly for monophonic signals cancellation takes place so that at least for this special case, the sum derivation is better." I haven't passed my eyes over this material in over thirty years. It is time I did! Now that I know that I wont burn up a transformer or suck the brains out of my head, I may try the original idea even though I know that I will settle for the "additive" circuit with a third amplifier. Many thanks, again, and especially for reminding me to re-read the original papers which had grown dusty. Father Bill

I have a hand drawn diagram by Paul, himself, describing how a phantom center channel could be had using the two 4 ohm taps of a vacuum tube stereo amplifier to a center speaker --one wire from each 4 ohm tap to the two speaker connections (4 + 4 = 8 Ohms). What is the current wisdom on this? Why is it never mentioned? Were there problems with this? This is not a philosophical question. I have a vintage model H that I would like to use with my ST70 and Klipschorns without having to buy another mono amplifier. Father Bill+

I know I'm a new kid on the block, but I did hang around Paul's lab quite a bit in the 70's and hung on every word he spake. I had been made to believe that the internal length of the Klipschorn was only a starting point for the total length which was picked up by the trihedral horn formed by the two walls and the floor and could be infinite, limited only by the size of the room. I'm not quite sure why a bigger/longer folded horn would change this. A bigger driver would move more air, but would it make lower notes? I have gone through the stack of "Dope from Hope" that I have and Paul expresses opinions on the ratio of length- to-width of listening rooms, but nothing on size of rooms. My Klipshorns are in an "anathema" sized 15'X 18'room with no carpet, and yet they reproduce perfectly the low CCCC of the 32' Principal of the Metheuen Aeolian-Skinner organ. I'm talking about visceral, draft producing 16hz fundamental. (Yes, I know it isn't "flat" in that octave.) My point is --you guys are wasting your time trying to gild the lilly. That sounded harsh. Sorry.

---------------- On 12/5/2002 10:06:32 PM John Albright wrote: The designation K-1000/6/5000 is odd and I've never seen that except maybe on ebay recently. It did NOT come from a Klipschorn. The Klipschorn's crossover points have been 500 and 5000 or 400 and 6000 until this year when they became 400 and 4500. The 1957 K-horn crossover should have been a K-Ortho K-500/5000. I'll bet the one you have came from a Shorthorn or Rebel. The impedance of all of the drivers were most likely 16 ohms for the crossover to carry a 16 ohm label. ---------------- Many thanks for your knowledge and interest. Malcolm directed me to a link that showed the exact item, trapezoid shape, schematic, and all. It was from a Shorthorn or Rebel. I was Paul's priest at St. Mark's Episcopal, Hope in the late '60-early '70's. He and Belle were special people to me. Father Bill