Troll

Sure one might say the Yamaha 5000 series with fully balanced and floated signal chain is designed to go together, but from personal experience with both RX-A8A and M-5000 A/B tested with NS-5000s and AL5s, the AL5s are night and day different and top dog, and the NS-5000s actually need the PEQ of the RX-A8A or other to get the most out of them. While the unadulterated 5000 chain is quite true to historical sound of say Fleetwood Mac and Led Zeppelin vinyl, if I want anything similar to what the AL5s produce with the band Yello, I’ve got to tweak the NS-5000s using something more than just what the C-5000 tone controls offer. But there’s nothing to the statement that the M-5000 is “matched” to the NS-5000 when looking at specs and hearing A/B differences with AL5s. The M-5000 is an exceptionally clean and powerful amp conservatively rated with lots of reserve. The RX-A8A high slew rate amps are also crystal clear. The only difference I note on both the NS-5000 and AL5s when switching between M-5000 and RX-A8A amps is just the force and loudness, the bass is identical until you get to concert levels then the M-5000 slams effortlessly. Anyway my ear votes Yamaha amps regardless of speaker, but I do tweak with PEQ and other methods to suite the genre and speaker. The NS-5000s are my eye candy but the AL5s are my ear candy. Honestly can’t say anything about other amps though I have only had Denon/Sony and now Yamaha, and I have heard McIntosh and Crown. I was floored when I went from 27 watt Denon to Sony years ago, enjoyed the slam from extra power but missed the delicate highs of the Denon, and now I believe I have both with the Yamahas and great fiddle tools. If the M-5000 was actually tuned to the NS-5000 it wouldn’t play flat out of the box. Just saying. The Bryston 28 lbs, Yamaha 60 lbs, McIntosh 75 lbs, the signal to noise ratio is in the same order, but no way would I consider the Bryston model a competitor of these.

It’s possible that running the grandson out of the listening room is desirable, much like those insect and rodent ultrasonic repellents purport to do.

Commercial installations use FIR to deal with room issues with good success. Can’t change football stadiums to fit the speakers.

There IS no proper position. Recording engineers don’t place those instruments in 2 channel. That’s just an artifact of rooms and speaker design. If you get used to the saxophone of a particular recording at +6,+3 X,Y axis where 0,0 is dead center from listening position, just know that no recording engineer expects that. They know that lots of speakers image differently and they test recordings on a variety, using hardware and software. No artist “intended” it to be at +6,+3. Just saying for clarity. Enjoy the art of reproduction! Artists love to hear their songs on different systems, none being right or wrong.

What you are experiencing in my opinion is the bigger midrange levels from the bass horn, giving you more dynamic response to mids, but also the horn loaded woofer. If you are bi-wiring/amping, alternately unplug the top and bottom cabinets and listen. Surprisingly most of the music my ears tune into that I love from the AL5s comes from the bottom cabinet in my opinion. The top cabinet reminds me of an AM radio, also lovely but I laughed when I experienced it. Enjoy!

Interesting as an accident actually I noticed my AL5s driving the cone of my SPL-150 while turned off. Yamaha ships their NS-5000s with concentric foam for the port to tune the bass, so wonder if just sticking foam in the Cornwall ports when not in use would stop them from “eating bass” when trying to compare them to AL5s in the same room. Also begs for “cone lock” feature, since too many tricks in play when going room to room comparing or costing time to switch pairs. It’s been easy enough though for me to just use A/B on amp to understand the either or and the combined sound, which isn’t remarkably different at different locations and positioning around the room. Once the AL5s are where desired, I’d try the Cornwalls inside, outside and staggered with A/B comparisons, then I’d put the Cornwalls in line with couch used as surrounds and call it a wonderful day!

Same day I compared Cornwalls to AL5s I also heard the K-horns, all current models, in the same room. Although easily adjustable I found the k-horn high end to brash at the same eq, while I absolutely loved the AL5. Nobody actually listens flat so that would not concern me but I wish dealers would dial in their best eq for each speaker and room. If I had a dead room the k-horns would be more appreciated but could dial back the top end I’m sure to suit my taste. Could also have simply been the height of the drivers too, but I did walk around and sit and noticed the same. I did notice more k-horn bass than AL5s but not worth the size and placement, price being equal, and knowing what I could do with eq and sub. Next stop is jubilee’s for me hopefully!

I have heard both and ended with the AL5s and here’s why. First, I grew up seeing/hearing LaScalas in venues so they are a beasty must have icon in my brain. Second, the voicing scale is larger and spot on without the boom. I often listen with subwoofer off, better for longer intervals, and I can enjoy the music longer. Turning the bass down on CW4s isn’t the same. The bass is absolutely there with the AL5s and can really thump with attenuation but it’s not the shake the house frequencies I get from the SPL-150 which I also love but not for all listening. I use the sub for jam time and movies, but heavy bass as you know causes high frequency masking/distortion so it just depends on what part of a soundtrack you want to be able to pay attention to. Having the capability but separate control is my current preference. However make note of klipsch statement about the CW4: “Only the Klipsch Jubilee, Klipschorn and La Scala (with their horn-loaded, low-frequency designs) exceed the Cornwall in bass extension and output.” So there’s more to it than just the low end specifications. Also probably depends on your preference of listening level. As Roy Delgado says, big horns in little rooms is the name of the game.

There is no gain knob on the X350.8. Not like a Crown amp. Also no gain control on Yamaha M-5000. The M-5000 documentation just says when using dual mono/bridge mode “Since amplification will be doubled in this configuration, adjust the volume level appropriately on the connected preamplifier. If you are using a Yamaha preamplifier that features a GAIN selector, adjust the volume level using this selector so that you will be able to use volume controls on other components in the usual way.” So the answer is basically to get a quieter amp which original poster has decided to do. But OP could also stick existing amp in the garage for a nice winter heater, and use it for outdoor speakers or return to less sensitive speakers. I just feel bad this was his path and the AL5s revealed/caused a problem for him. As a new AL5 owner myself I get incredibly excited when I play them. Friends get that surprised “voice in the room” reaction and have looked around for other people. It’s what I call a “real speaker” when people think the sound is a person or instrument in the room. My Chorus are especially good with piano realism, and the AL5s are especially good at voice, in my opinion of course.

If OP has kids they will hear it. My son noticed when I switched from old Sony STR-DE935 AVR to new Yamaha RX-A8A. He can hear the noise floor of the Sony from the couch at 12’ on both my vintage Klipsch Chorus and the new AL5s, but he cannot hear the noise floor from either the Yamaha RX-A8A or the M-5000. The room has 2 pair of Chorus and the AL5s so it’s very obvious is there is any noise from anything being surrounded by 6 high sensitivity horn tweeters. Hiss used to bug me as a kid but honestly I hadn’t noticed the Sony noise. Not sure if it increased with age or was always there.

Interesting per https://www.passlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/brochure-pass-labs-2020-website.pdf the number of output devices per channel on the X350.8 is 72. ”Output devices per channel refers to the number of transistors used by the amplifier manufacturer in the output stage of each channel. In theory, by using a great number of output devices, there is less stress on each one, which decreases the likelihood of failure. ” However more components usually equals higher noise and distortion. For comparison the XA25 has 4 output devices, and the claim is “The result is faster, lower distortion, lower noise, higher damping and larger Class A operating envelope into low impedance loudspeakers all in a simple 3 stage circuit with total of three pair of push-pull gain transistors.”. The output is 25 watts per channel.

Here’s the AI generated answer: The noise floor of an amplifier is the additional increase in noise beyond the gain of the amplifier when the input of the amplifier is terminated1. To establish the noise floor of a power amplifier, you must first short out the input of the amplifier by using a shorting plug2. The amplifier’s power rating can impact the noise floor level3. Adding a pre-amplifier will boost signal levels above the noise floor, but across all frequencies4. Learn more: 1. dsp.stackexchange.com2. diyaudio.com3. sweetwater.com4. signalhound.com I saw somewhere someone saying that some amps trade a higher noise floor for lower THD. Not sure if that is real. But noise floor is different than THD ratings I think. “Noise is also typically distinguished from distortion” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_(electronics) Pass Labs refers to THD+N in their brochure where N is the noise floor. But their product specs are sparse and incomplete. In the amp specs I have I think it might be represented by signal to noise ratio and residual noise shown here. Also note the THD graphs showing the lowest distortion is achieved with 8ohm loads.

Doesn’t that mean if you turn down the gain you’re effectively disabling all those watts you thought you paid for?

Pass from my understanding does not claim to be the cleanest/quietest/most accurate amp offering. The popularity, because Nelson plays with all sorts of amp designs as chips and tubes come out, is that people like the low damping factor and coloration of the sound, and I would classify his work as a craft more than a science, especially with his stockpiles of older components. He might actually have a super clean/quiet/accurate amp offering because he plays with so many different amp designs and they do sound different on purpose in a crafty way. It's not right or wrong, good or bad, but from what I have seen with buyers, high power amps among hobbyists go with low efficiency speakers to achieve something, whatever it is. Maybe the lower efficiency speakers hide the high noise floor of some amps. Maybe it is high spl without breakage, or something else. The low ohm speakers were originally designed for 12v car systems because the high voltage just wasn't available but the amperage was. All I know is I can buy high efficiency high wattage 8ohm woofers and compression drivers and they are usually more pricey than low efficiency lower watt low ohm varieties. So I just haven't seen anything yet that points to the need for low efficiency speakers unless copper winding prices are high (more winds/length increases ohms) and the goal is to produce a cheaper speaker. High power amps usually just drive more drivers/speakers at the same time, in parallel would mean lower ohms, series higher ohms. If I was a manufacturer and my target audience was product abusive I might try to make speakers that are really hard to break, and that might cause me to choose materials that result in less sensitivity and/or create the distortion that people like similar to guitar amps that they can crank to distortion and yet won't break. Anyway for what it's worth this is just as confusing as car brands and performance upgrades. Buyer beware because there are paths people take with mechanics and sales that can cost a whole lot of money with no measurable gain except the notion of exclusivity and fame, and of course just keeping a friend in the business. I had the same feeling of stepping off the diving board a couple of weeks ago when I needed to replace tires that didn't last 30K miles and I wasn't going to buy that model/composition again....the ole tire hardness/grip/longevity battle. We have all been the person with little time running to the store/online and buying out of excitement and haste only to have buyers remorse and perhaps remembering something someone said that we ignored. So I think you put Prius tires on a Camaro but that's not really a fair statement when it comes to audio. Maybe you put guitar wires on a bass, or bass wires on a guitar. Best luck getting the setup you want! Maybe your HVAC isn't loud enough. But since the 80s when I bought my first Klipsch, it was Klipsch/Yamaha or Klipsch/McIntosh, or Klipsch/Denon. My first combo was Klipsch/Denon and part of the sales process was to show me the low noise floor and I went to college with it and showed all my buddies to their amazement. Signal to Noise ratio was all the rage when CDs were new. That's all I know man! It seems that was not the final argument though because many brands continue to sell with high noise floor, in trade for whatever they do. Party on! Just like a reputable car and mechanic shop though, your seller should let you swap out without a lot of trouble, just enough to cover the transaction/inventory holding/turnaround profit. Since you have played with higher end gear, they should know you're not done yet, so they should want to make you happy today, in hopes of future purchases and good reputation.

I’ve never heard a high power amp with no hiss. It’s a thing. You don’t need 350 watts for a 100 watt speaker, that kind of power for the AL5s, even if you put club grade woofers in, but if you think you do then you’re playing loud and noise floor is not an issue because you have giant HVAC and a nice crowd and bottles and glasses clinking. Go for an amp that produces legit specifications and communicates the noise floor like Yamaha which is very quiet, try the M-5000 you’ll love it! I can vouch for them I have two with my AL5s. Dead quiet, even in dual mono bridge mode. https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/m-5000/index.html Here’s the manual: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/0/1228260/web_VAQ1880_M-5000_om_U_EnFr_a0.pdf If you can hear it then I’m just deaf. Hold your ear next to a tweeter long enough you won’t hear it either! PS I have seen people go to great lengths to clean up their power line noise for amps that failed to do it internally. Get the right gear and it will work everywhere. PSPS I don’t need two amps I was just experimenting. If the 2 channel amp is too powerful it messes up the levels for the other 9 channels. Any ole amp will run you out of the room with AL5s.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/roasting-speakers-for-fun.3275411/

One needs to take cabinet resonances with circumspection. Many thin wall and furniture grade plywood cabinets were actually made to resonate just like an instrument. I have a friend who wants to hear kick drum on old tunes. Having heard the tunes and seeing they are not accentuated like a modern recording can be, how do you give it to him? The answer is box resonance.

The TI 3255 engineer debugging a hot customer board indicated the circuit was experiencing a “straight through” connection. Just another term for “draining”. The question is if assembled correctly, what failed component(s) would send more current through? If not possible where is the errant solder connection? Luckily my spl-150 replacement amp is indeed running cool. Best luck to you!

82, I see you need attention and your glassware needs to be perfectly aligned. Hopefully you can read and get whatever you want out of people’s writing. Title is: Wiring a Heresy I as a Center Channel on a 2-channel amp. That’s what I answered until you didn’t want to actually answer the question. The speaker switcher has impedance-matching autoformers to maintain a safe operating load at the amplifier which is what someone needs connecting more speakers to a channel without knowing what they are doing. So yes, it is one among many answers to the question. I usually provide the safe answer first.

Figure out what they used at the Stark Club in Dallas. That was Klipsch and it was the bomb. Many years ago I walked in and it was so crisp and clean I was in heaven, recognizing the sound instantly.

Agree I was just answering the actual question. One could get even a used 5.1 Sony from the 90s and it’s still quite good. I’m all about AppleTV and Atmos. But I’m not a fan of single center. The best configuration I had was two Chorus wired in series for the center on a Yamaha RX-A8A. A single center makes the soundstage too pointy and narrow. Not like movie theaters at all. Verified at movie theater again last week. Wide center, with soundtrack on edge. Currently I’m trying virtual center with AL5s for mains and it’s quite good but will probably return to a dual center in series next to TV, mains wide. Double center also solves the problem of bad 5.1/Atmos mixes where someone had the hairbrained idea to isolate vocals in the center. Someone was a sandwich short of a picknick when they thought that was good, especially knowing most of the market has small centers.

No I didn’t. The question was for 2 channel only.

It won’t, but you wire it in mono as in https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/53756/combining-left-and-right-hook-speaker-wires-into-one-speaker if you have a mono or bridge switch use it instead and follow the instructions. Usually pos right to pos speaker, neg left to neg speaker. If bridge it will jump the neg right to pos left. Cheers!

If no A/B speaker selector on 2-channel try Russound SDB-4.1 or equivalent for your needs.