peterbwreal

I have '84 Belles with ALKs and was also concerned about a sub keeping up. I use a RSW-12 am very happy with the combination.

I ran my Belles with a Hafler DH-500 power amp and Hafler DH-110 preamp with absolutely no hiss - dead quiet. I switched to a Dynaco PAS-3 preamp and picked up a hiss, and also kept blowing fuses on my ALK networks when switching from Tuner to Auxiliary. I figured I was just putting too much power to the speakers (255w/channel!) and switched to a Dynaco ST-35 with 17.5w/ch. That cured the fuse problem, but the hiss remained. It has to be the preamp, so my next guess is to test tubes and go from there. Incidentally, everything you hear about tubes is true: the Belles sound much richer with the Dynaco equipment. The ALK networks allows me to attenuate the squawker level, and I had set them way down as the speakers were too bright with the Hafler. I returned them to the "normal" setting with the Dynaco tube equipment.

---------------- On 10/24/2003 8:00:21 PM TBrennan wrote: Like I'd put any faith in the acuity of a guy who combines a 12" mini-sub with horn-loaded woofers. If that's your taste I don't give a good Goddam what you think you hear, you've no credibility with me. Unlike many here I've actually taken part in DBTs comparing various speaker wires and in these tests nobody could tell a difference. Delusion, stupidity and gullibility are at an all time high in this hobby. To think that some goons are being conned and then are happy to be conned, are willingly bending over to get it stuck in their *** is amazing. How people can be so unhep in public, to display willingly to the world that they're a mark and a rube, is beyond the ken of this fella who grew up wise on the West Side of Chicago and learned at an early age about keeping his money in a clip and in his front pocket. ---------------- Geez, what did I do to this guy? Lighten up, Pal! Life in general(and audio in particular) isn't worth all this high blood pressure. Good thing this is the internet and not some dark corner in Chicago, where I know you would not slide so easily for mouthing off so rudely over so very little. Have a nice day!

At the time, I was trying to get away from bright shrilly highs with my home built speakers (using a Morel MDT-33 tweeter) and when the Tara Labs was hooked up, it even added more high frequency content. I have found this discussion very interesting because I was a complete cynic about the value of high-cost speaker wire. Some years ago a friend of mine went to work for Tara labs and brought a series of different "demo" cables to my house to prove to me that speaker wire made a difference. Having been a firm believer in 12 ga. lamp cord for 40 years, I was totally amazed by the very obvious difference in sound by different wires. I'm no expert, but as a result I'm a believer in Tara Labs wires. Peter Brunner My Humble System: Dynaco PAS-3 preamp Dynaco ST-35 power amp '86 Belles RSW-12

After reading this site for some months I'm ready to make a commitment on sub. I have a set of '86 Belles with ALK networks which sound, great but don't put out a lot of bass. I listen mostly to "classic" jazz and classical, at mid-to-high volumes, and I'm very limited on placement (mostly under, or behind, a grand piano). I'm down to the following: SVS 20-39, RSW-12, or HSU VTF-2. What do you suggest? Thanks!

I purchased a pair of Oiled Oak 1986 Belles in perfect condition last summer for $1,800, which was on the high end. They were one-owner and 99% perfect, local with no shipping, so I felt the price was justified. At first I was disappointed with the bass and considered a subwoofer. Over time I became accustomed to their sound and no longer feel the need for a subwoofer. The bass on the Belles, while not particularly "low", is quick and tight.

Has anyone heard the new RW-12 subwoofer? Would like to augment the bass of my Belles but can't afford a RSW-12. Can the RW-12 keep up with the fast bass of the Belles? Thanks -

I would like a pair of these - thank you. peter.bwreal@mighty.net

I find this discussion very interesting, and pretty much what I expected. I remember a very similar controversy when CDs replaced vinyl. There was a lot of complaining about the harsh and unrealistic sound, particularly in the upper spectrum. I retrospect, I think we all got used to the sound of CDs. For example, I recently found an old vinyl of Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue", which I also have on CD. Ignoring the scratches and pops, I can't believe how flat and dead the record now sounds compared to the CD. I'd bet the record didn't sound as good as the CD when it was new - but please, lets not go off on a vinyl vs. CD tangent. Peter

Thanks for the response by everyone, I feel better now. I also remember going to a psych professor's house in the early sixties to listen to his fancy new stereo system. There was something wrong with his hearing and he had the bass way down and the treble way up. It sounded terrible (to me). When I pointed out that he had the controls all wrong, his response was "Screw you, it sounds good to me, and I'm the one that paid for it!" Peter

All right, I'll confess: I'm using a Hafler DH-110 pre-amp and DH-500 power amp (255 w/channel) to run my Belles. The Hafler stuff is a remnant from the days when I was running less efficient Klipsch speakers, but I've had the Hafler equipment for 16 almost troublefree years, and it was almost ten years old when I bought it. From what I read on this forum I'm doing almost everything wrong (except using Klipsch speakers) and using about 235 w/channel too many (and - Yegads - no tubes!). Nevertheless, I cannot turn the volume past about 10 o'clock without the cat wanting out, and the Belles sound GREAT: clean highs, solid/tight bass. Reading this forum I developed a certain amount of solid state guilt, so I asked my repairman about tube amps and their "warm sound". He says the "warm sound" is distortion. What am I doing wrong? Who do I believe? Thanks - Peter

I recently (last month) paid $1,800 for a pair of oiled oak Belles in very nice condition: a 1/8 inch veneer chip out of one lower corner and some water stains on one speaker which I got out with linseed oil and steel wool. I paid this much for them because they were less than 20 miles away, so that I didn't have to mess with shipping, AND I could see and hear them before I bought them. I'm certain that if you stay on this forum long enough you can pick some up for less, BUT you wouldn't be able to preview them, and you'd pay at least $150-200 shipping (or more depending upon where you are in relation to the speakers). I've also seen Belles go for as much as $1,800-2,200 on eBay.

Can the SW12 II keep up with Belles? Any feedback? Thanks - Peter

Can this subwoofer keep up with Belles? Any feedback? Thanks - Peter

Yep, it did say "lent free" cloth, but we're almost to Easter. I've not had a problem with the speaker being sticky or tacky. I doubt that the Belles had any treatment for years, and they sucked up the oil. I imagine if you oil them frequently there's a point where the wood just won't absorb any more and start being tacky. It'll dry out pretty quickly though. I mentioned in my earlier post that I used to oil my KG4s about every 6 months - they were never tacky. Attached is a pic of the top of my water-stained Belle after two steel wool treatments. The right front of the speaker had about 3-4 overlapping black waterstain rings which you can still barely see if you look hard. The second wood panel from the right also had a big stain on it, which is completely gone. I imagine that the remaining marks will disappear when I do the speaker again in about a month or so. Peter

Moon, this is a good article, but remember that it primarily addresses finishes which have "lacquer, varnish, polyurethane, or shellac" coats on them. I believe Klipsch did make a varnished cabinets (I've seen some Cornwalls), but many of cabinets were simply "oiled wood", as mine are. From your pictures, yours look like they are oiled wood, but I may be wrong. If they have a protective coating on them, they will have to be stripped completely before you can finish them in oil. "Oiled wood" finishes are not glossy like varnish or polyurethane, etc. finishes are, but simply raw wood with oil on them. So, make certain of what you are starting with. Using steel wool on a "finished" cabinet will probably screw up the finish. Peter

Just soak the steel wool pad and scrub in the direction of the grain, not across the grain. The veneer is quite durable and will not be damaged unless it is already peeling. Fine steel wool when moistened with oil is not nearly as abrasive as you think. I start by pouring some oil on the top and then working it in with the steel wool. Obviously you can't pour oil in the vertical panels, so pour it on the steel wool pad and work with it. The wood will drink up an amazing amount of oil. Peter

Go buy the finest steel wool you can find: 000 or 0000 (0000 is better if available). Unroll the pad and use half at a time. Pour some linseed oil on the top of the speaker and start scrubbing WITH THE GRAIN. Do the whole speaker, paying particular attention to any imperfections. Like I said in my first post, one of my speakers had big black water rings, about 98% of which came out. You can't tell where they were unless I point it out to you, or you REALLY look hard. When you're done, wait about 15 minutes and wipe it down with old rags. Wait a few weeks and do it again - wipe it down and when dry polish with an old towel. I had a pair of KG4s (which had no imperfections) and used to wipe on boiled linseed oil every six months or so. The wood just drinks up the oil. I just gave the KG4s to my son and they look like new. Peter

Here's a phot of the oiled Belle - the right upper corner had severe water rings on it.

Geez, we are becoming total paranoids! Boiled linseed oil will not harm you, unless (like an idiot) you drink it. It will not harm your children, unless they lick it while the wood is damp, in which case they might throw up. Most children will not lick things (like speakers) unless they taste good. Boiled linseed oil does not taste good. I have been refinishing furniture using linseed oil for 40 years, and it has never made me or anyone else sick. In fact, I sort of like the smell, and I'm normal, damn it! JUST ASK ME! Attached is a Klipsch publication advising you to oil your cabinets several times a year, using "quality furniture oil". Boiled linseed oil is a "quality furniture oil". Last month I bought a set of '86 Belles which had some scratches and water rings on the top. I used 000 steel wool and some elbow grease, along with lots of boiled linseed oil and the marks almost disappeared. The second time (2 weeks later)the marks DISAPPEARED and the cabinets acquired a rich, deep *G*L*O*W*. Since this bulletin will aonly allow one attachment, I'll do a second with a pic of the Belle.

120db?!? Yikes! I don't want to be thumped, I'm only listening to classical music and classic jazz! I just want more bass than the Belles provide.

Will a SW-12 (not KSW or RSW) be compatible with Belles?

There is a 70s set of Klipschorns on eBay which have been modified and use this crossover - Peter

Anyone know what these are, and what they are from?

Thank you for your response, Trey. Yes, I would like the schematics. My email address is peter.bwreal@mighty.net. Incidentally, the AAs are from a set of mid 70s Klipschorns. I understand they will work better in my 1986 Belles than the current ABs?