maxg Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 On Saturday morning whilst cleaning out a cupboard in one of the spare rooms I happened upon a dozen or so long forgotten Albums (as in vinyl) along with my old Sony (1985) integrated unit that had a turntable. Out of casual interest I pulled the unit out and fired her up - to my amazement the thing actually still works - but as I did not want to risk my speakers on such an old amp I had no idea what kind of sound, if any, the thing produces. Unfortunately the Sony connects to its record player using a very proprietry looking ribbon cable so I had no way of connecting it to my main system. The only output on the amp is a headphone socket - for the larger rather than smaller adapter. I didnt have any headphones other than the ones I picked up with a Sony CD walkman sometime ago so I popped round to my local stereo supplies shop and picked up a few items, namely: 1. Large to small headphone adapter. 2. 2 additional pairs of RCA cables (reasonable ones) 3. 1, 4 way RCA expander (Radioshack - all very low tech stuff). 4. I digital voltmeter/ammeter/ohm-meter(?) I got back home and immediately tested the disks using the sony headphones. I must say it sounded remarkably good - although the records themselves were very dusty. Having proved that the thing worked I grabbed a cable that came with my PC to connect the speakers to the soundcard (headphone type socket to 2 RCA's) and connected the whole unit to my main system as follows: Large adapter plugged into the headphone out of the Sony amp. Headphone socket to RCA cable plugged into that and then connected to the Radioshack port expander. This was then connected to the 2nd port on my ZTPRE. I did a quick test using my SACD player on the Radioshack connecting the main outs to that and then to the pre, whilst connecting the front outs direct to the other port on the pre. To my amazement there was no detectable difference between the 2 as I switched from one to the other. I then disconnected the SACD player from the Radioshack port expander and connected up my CD player, DVD player and satellite reciver to the other 3 ports available. The next step was to find a way to clean the records a bit. All audiophiles had better stop reading at this point - you may get upset... As I do not own anything dedicated for the job (and the store I had visited didnt have anything either) I found one of those magic clothes brushes that are covered with a velvet type material (the ones that brush off fluff in one direction and deposit it in the other). I started the turntable with a record in place and then, starting from the middle, swept the bruch across the vinyl towards the outside. This worked amazingly well - removing all the visible debris. Finally I lowered the needle onto the disk. Now I know you are not going to believe this but it sounded remarkably good. Not only that but there was very little popping and the background hiss was remarkably subdued. Over the course of the next couple of hours I tried a variety of the albums. Some were better than others, and a couple had seriously wicked scrathes on them but after trying them all out I found 4 that played really well: Simon and Garfunkel collection (17 of their hits) Beetles Red Ablum (double) Beetles Blue Album (double) ELO - Out of the blue (double) Did it sound better than CD? Well, to be honest - no, but it was not nearly as far away as the setup would indicate. It did, however, fill me with nostalgia for the days when I was 15 or so, lying on my bed listening to my old Radioshack record player - most of all from the sound when the record just starts playing and there is that slight pop when the needle lands, followed by a bit of hiss, a pop or 2, and then the music starts. Somewhere around I have a bunch of old 45's. If I can find them I will probably try those next. Oh, and whilst I was playing with all this I setup the voltmeter to monitor my power. It seems fairly stable at 218v plus or minus 4 at the extremes. Any opinions as to whether or not I would benefit from a power cleaner? ------------------ 2 * Heresy 2 (mains) 2 * Homemade horn speakers (rears) 1 * REL Strata 3 sub Accuphase E211 amp. Tube monoblocks with separate pre-amp (DECWARE ZTPRE with separate beefed up PSU) Marantz CD6000 player Sony NS900 SACD/DVD player Stax Headphones (on loan to a friend) Humax 5400 digital satellite receiver Sharp Video 32" Sony flat screen 16:9 TV Mogami interconnects Silver Synergistic speaker cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Power cleaner is the least of your worries...heh, I almost chuckled aloud here! Great story though. You would actually do far better to invest the same amount of ducats in a low cost turntable with a simple cartridge stepup device. While your ingenuity is admirable I dont think investing $300 or more in a record cleaner would be sound decision making, knowhatimsayin? You could invest a few hundred and change and come away with a neat little vinyl addition getting far better sound, getting rid of the Sony brigade with MacGyver connections and generally improving everything from sound, to aesthetics, to sanity! If you just want to play your collection and add used finds this would be a neat little addition and cheaper than a record cleaner! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 11, 2002 Author Share Posted March 11, 2002 "Sony brigade with MacGyver connections " I chuckled at that one too. BTW - You're up early this morning - cant sleep?? As for my "solution" I was just playing and got kinda carried away. The mere fact that this worked at all was something of a revelation to me. The fact it both played, and was listenable too astounded me! I am not sure I want to invest in vinyl, as I have said before - certainly not for the 4 albums I have - and I cant imagine growing my collection any time soon - unless there are local shops still selling vinyl at reasonable prices.... Ah.... who knows what the future holds - maybe it will be my SACD collection that continues to expand ....maybe I will get into vinyl after all - time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Well, being that you were considering a "power cleaner" which I took to mean "POWERED cleaner," I thought the several hundred might be worthy of better placement. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 11, 2002 Author Share Posted March 11, 2002 Oh I see....not what I meant at all... I was monitoring the AC power coming into my house. Many people in Greece have invested in power cleaners for the power itself (I have no idea what else to call them). As I understand it these eliminate the fluctuations in AC power that comes down the lines and provide clean constant electricity for your units. As my power was actually much more stable than I was expecting I was merely musing on whether this would be a worthwhile investment in my case. I do already have a surge protector in place. (I got the idea from Arco - he was monitoring his incoming power and it was a lot worse than mine - he does have a power cleaner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUNDJUNKIE Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Hey Max, aren't they still using DC for power over there? That's what my wife said when she went back some 10 yrs ago to visit her relatives? All you would need are some really large filter caps...right? LOL! I'm going to have to go back soon to see the old country before mine are gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Lord. Different, indeed. Quite. You see the words "Power Conditioner" more often than Power Cleaner. If you opt for this, I would consider it for digital and preamp with amps going directly to the wall. They can easily rob dynamics and air. Of course, something like the PS Audio Power Plant, which is actually an AC regenerator, is different again, but I dont think you are referring to this (at this stage, you are talking serious $$ investment). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Max, your VOM is insufficient to determine whether you need a power conditioner or not. We used to use a very specialized piece of equipment to monitor power fluctuations (sags, spikes, other noise) for a week or so before recommending appropriate power conditioning equipment. There are many aftermarket products that claim to improve line power quality. I am dubious of their true ability due to the complications involved that they often conveniently omit in their literature. But talk to your friend and see what he has. Perhaps the inside scoop is no further than your nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Max, Power conditioners are used for three reasons: 1) To keep stable (at a certain, selectable, point) a non stable AC voltage. This is achieved via a transformer with multiple secondaries associated to a special detecting circuit. APC offers a number of models, here. Some people are happy and some (like me...) not so happy with the results. 2) To protect your equipment from surges, spikes and other nasty things associated with AC current. Relevant circuits are included into most commercial P.C. packages (like Tice and the like), as well into simpler power distribution units (from Monster and others). It might work, but - as I have discovered - usually robs the music of its dynamics. 3) To isolate the system from the high frequency hush AC current carries, especially in urban areas. For this, you only have to use a big (say, 3kVA) 1/1 transformer between the wall outlet and your power distribution unit. This is the solution that works for me giving a "blacker" background as well as a cleaner overall presentation. One must be careful, though, not to mix analog and digital into the same power distribution unit. For digital you can do the same thing, using a smaller (say, 500-600VA transformer. Can you plug power amps into the big one? Well, it depends on the particular amps. Mine benefit from it, but some others clearly prefer to "see" the infinite resistance the power company offers. As always, try and decide for yourself... Regarding, finally, vinyl: I can see you coming, earlier than I thought I would! Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 12, 2002 Author Share Posted March 12, 2002 Thank you all for the input. A couple of questions arise for Arco: "1) To keep stable (at a certain, selectable, point) a non stable AC voltage. This is achieved via a transformer with multiple secondaries associated to a special detecting circuit. APC offers a number of models, here. Some people are happy and some (like me...) not so happy with the results." I think that this is what I have been monitoring. Most of my listening is done between the hours of 10 pm and midnight weekdays. During this period my voltage seems to be stable at 217 Volts plus or minus 2. I am further happy to report that no other items in the house appear to have a detrimental affect on this power as they are all on separate rings (refrigerator, washing machine, owen etc.) Is this sufficiently stable for my audio equipment or do I need to fix the voltage to an even higher degree of accuracy? "2) To protect your equipment from surges, spikes and other nasty things associated with AC current. Relevant circuits are included into most commercial P.C. packages (like Tice and the like), as well into simpler power distribution units (from Monster and others). It might work, but - as I have discovered - usually robs the music of its dynamics." Almost all of the sensitive equipment in the house is connected to the mains via surge protectors which I purchased at a local computer outlet. I have no idea what effect, if any, these have on the audio but I would rather not take the risk of blowing an item courtesy of PPC fluctuations. For reference these protectors were not expensive (about 10,000 GRD - $30). "3) To isolate the system from the high frequency hush AC current carries, especially in urban areas. For this, you only have to use a big (say, 3kVA) 1/1 transformer between the wall outlet and your power distribution unit. This is the solution that works for me giving a "blacker" background as well as a cleaner overall presentation. One must be careful, though, not to mix analog and digital into the same power distribution unit. For digital you can do the same thing, using a smaller (say, 500-600VA transformer. Can you plug power amps into the big one? Well, it depends on the particular amps. Mine benefit from it, but some others clearly prefer to "see" the infinite resistance the power company offers. As always, try and decide for yourself..." You are, as ever, now going outside my knowledge area. Would an on-line UPS do the trick here or are we talking about a specialist item of equipment? I presumre that this item would be used in conjunction with the surge protector - is this correct? "Regarding, finally, vinyl: I can see you coming, earlier than I thought I would!" LOL - thought it might tickle you. I have the feeling that I may well go down this route as I have no found local suppliers of vinyl in Glyfada (both audiophile and non-audiophile). I am sure that this will not be at the expense of SACD though. I just bought 7 more disks and played 2 of them last night - you have to hear Beethoven's Pastoral coming through my (your?) ZTPRE on the normal setting (not aggressive) to believe it! I have never enjoyed this piece so much!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Hi Max, I will try to reply to your questions: 1) Your current, as you say, is stable (at least during the auditioning hours). This is very good. You might want to see what happens with AC at the nominal 230V, but I would not bother much. You are a lucky man, not only for the stability of your current, but also because of the fact that the functioning of the other appliances in your home does not impede your auditioning with clicks, pops etc. I can say I am also lucky concerning this last one. But my AC variations range from 200-235V. Not nice! 2) This is, generally, a good thing to do: Spike protectors (especially when combined with voltage regulators) usually enhance the image quality of a TV, lower significantly computer repair bills and can litteraly "save" refrigerators. If you have one on your stereo, though, try to remove it and see what happens. I hope you are lucky, once again! 3) An isolation transformer is very different from a UPS (which, by the way, is one of the least recommended things to use with stereo systems!). When, as you say, you get acquainted with your new sound, you will have to try one and see for yourself. Welcome to the club you "crypto-vinyl" fan! Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm This message has been edited by arco on 03-12-2002 at 04:45 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 12, 2002 Author Share Posted March 12, 2002 OK - I have to ask - why is a UPS not recommneded for use with audio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arco Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 One of the things most UPS's do is to smoothen the AC sinewave by reforming it. Only problem is that they do so on the cheap (computers don't mind about that...) and the end result is still full of nasties, tending to affect music reproducing systems. The idea is not bad per se but, to implement it correctly, you must go all the way and build something ressembling a power amp. PS AUDIO makes such power conditioners. Never put my hands on any of those, although they have an excellent reputation (with prices to match). Aristidis www.aca.gr/pop_coumpas.htm This message has been edited by arco on 03-12-2002 at 07:57 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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