Trying to design a home theater, could use some suggestions.

[stink]

Hello!

While I consider myself pretty competent with electronics as a whole, I'm a complete novice when it comes to sound systems.

We've decided to do a bit of remodeling and I figured now would be the perfect time to actually go out and get a decent home theater system to go with out decent tv.

After some deliberation, I've decided on the Onkyo TX-SR707 for a receiver but the speaker decision have given me a headache. I have a friend who is into home audio a bit, and he turned me onto Onkyo and Klipsch but our conflicting work schedules prevent us from discussing the topic more in depth...so here I am, turning to the experts.

I guess I should start with my assumptions. Correct me if I'm wrong. Most of this info came from said friend with a bit from reading around online. First, he told me be careful buying box sets as they usually skimp out on the center speaker, though he was sure to mention Klipsch is good about providing a decent center with their sets. Second, half of the budget should be spent on the center speaker....I'm assuming that is for 5.1 and if I move up to 7.1 then the center will be slightly less.

So, the first thing I did was try to piece together a system. This is where I fell down the rabbit hole. The setup I imagined would be a C-2, a pair of B-3s (I was going to go with B-2s but the 3s are the same price), and 2 pairs of S-1s or S-2s (for 7.1).

Now, talking msrp, the C-2 is a $275 speaker. In comparison, the S-2s are $450...this isn't really the price ratio I was lead to believe in. Will the S-2s overpower the C-2? Should I move down to S-1? The S-1s are only 50w, though. Will I be gimping myself by using them with the 100w/channel receiver? Maybe just bump up to a nicer center? Does the bookshelf even add anything or should I go with a complete set of surrounds?

Now, then. Thats issue #1.

Issue #2 is size. The wife and I went to bestbuy cause we knew they had speakers we could listen to and look at. They had the VS-14 and VB-15 and she was immediately put off by the size (I admit, I was too). The VSs are larger that the Ss, and I tried to show her the difference, but it didn't help much.

We have some friends who have a bose surround sound and she went in thinking we were going to look at speakers that size.

Soooo, assuming I can't win the fight on the size, I need to start working on a back-up plan. This should be pretty easy. I just pick a set, right? Quintet, Quintet III, HD-500 or HD-1000. Everything I've read points towards the quintet over the hd, so I'm assuming the quintet III would be the pick?

Now, would anyone recommend still picking up a center speaker to replace the quintet or hd center with?

Also, do they sell the satellite speakers individually or as a pair so I can bump up from 5.1 to 7.1? I haven't been able to find them.

Last note, the wife seems happy to spend the $1000 on the bose acoustimass set, so I'd say my budget is about that....if not a bit more if I use the puppy dog eyes.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long winded post.

[Youthman]

Welcome to the forums stink. You've come to the right place. Lots of great people here with lots of knowledge.

First, he told me be careful buying box sets as they usually skimp out on the center speaker

Box sets, or HTIB (Home Theater in a Box) are designed for those on a low budget and usually have mediocre sound for all speakers. For a little more, you can easily purchase something that will well surpass any HTIB system, especially if you are willing to buy used.

Second, half of the budget should be spent on the center speaker....I'm assuming that is for 5.1 and if I move up to 7.1 then the center will be slightly less.

That might be an exagerated estimate. For HT, I would say that the center channel is one of the most important elements of your system since close to 80% of all that you hear in a movie comes through that speaker. Do not cut corners when it comes to your center. I don't think any of us in the forums have spent 50% on our center though.

They had the VS-14 and VB-15 and she was immediately put off by the size (I admit, I was too).

You might be in the wrong forum if you are putt off by the size of the VS-15's. Believe it or not, we have guys using floorstanding speakers as surrounds (like these La Scalas). []

We have some friends who have a bose surround sound and she went in thinking we were going to look at speakers that size.

With speakers, size does matter. It's simply a matter of physics. Yes BOSE are cute and are almost invisible and produce a descent sound but there is no way a 6" bass radiator can produce even close to a 15" subwoofer with a 1250 watt amp (my sub). Their speaker cabinets are made of plastic, and their main speakers do not even have a tweeter in them (for producing high frequencies). As with anything in life, size and convenience have a trade off. With BOSE, you are trading size for quality, something we in the Klipsch forums do not care to do.

I have personally never owned the quintets but if you search around the forums, you will find that most that buy them, soon upgrade their speakers. Again, you are trading size for quality.

Provided a budget, there are many here that can offer suggestions to help keep you within budget. Here are a few questions:

1. Is $1000 including receiver and speakers?

2. Would you consider buying good quality used equipment?

3. Would your wife be open to a bookshelf speaker over a sattelite speaker?

4. Are you going to purchase a sub? Highly recommend one.

[Youthman]

Welcome to the forums stink. You've come to the right place. Lots of great people here with lots of knowledge.

First, he told me be careful buying box sets as they usually skimp out on the center speaker

Box sets, or HTIB (Home Theater in a Box) are designed for those on a low budget and usually have mediocre sound for all speakers. For a little more, you can easily purchase something that will well surpass any HTIB system, especially if you are willing to buy used.

Second, half of the budget should be spent on the center speaker....I'm assuming that is for 5.1 and if I move up to 7.1 then the center will be slightly less.

That might be an exagerated estimate. For HT, I would say that the center channel is one of the most important elements of your system since close to 80% of all that you hear in a movie comes through that speaker. Do not cut corners when it comes to your center. I don't think any of us in the forums have spent 50% on our center though.

They had the VS-14 and VB-15 and she was immediately put off by the size (I admit, I was too).

You might be in the wrong forum if you are putt off by the size of the VS-15's. Believe it or not, we have guys using floorstanding speakers as surrounds (like these La Scalas). []

We have some friends who have a bose surround sound and she went in thinking we were going to look at speakers that size.

With speakers, size does matter. It's simply a matter of physics. Yes BOSE are cute and are almost invisible and produce a descent sound but there is no way a 6" bass radiator can produce even close to a 15" subwoofer with a 1250 watt amp (my sub). Their speaker cabinets are made of plastic, and their main speakers do not even have a tweeter in them (for producing high frequencies). As with anything in life, size and convenience have a trade off. With BOSE, you are trading size for quality, something we in the Klipsch forums do not care to do.

I have personally never owned the quintets but if you search around the forums, you will find that most that buy them, soon upgrade their speakers. Again, you are trading size for quality.

Provided a budget, there are many here that can offer suggestions to help keep you within budget. Here are a few questions:

1. Is $1000 including receiver and speakers?

2. Would you consider buying good quality used equipment?

3. Would your wife be open to a bookshelf speaker over a sattelite speaker?

4. Are you going to purchase a sub? Highly recommend one.

[stink]

Welcome to the forums stink. You've come to the right place. Lots of great people here with lots of knowledge.

Thanks!

Box sets, or HTIB (Home Theater in a Box) are designed for those on a low budget and usually have mediocre sound for all speakers. For a little more, you can easily purchase something that will well surpass any HTIB system, especially if you are willing to buy used.

Yeah, thats what I figured and is why I tried to avoid it alltogether. Unfortunately, our trip to best buy hurt my cause more than it helped.

You might be in the wrong forum if you are putt off by the size of the VS-15's. Believe it or not, we have guys using floorstanding speakers as surrounds (like these La Scalas).

No doubt.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind going to floorstanding speakers, we just have an odd shaped room we're going to be working with (and 3 sub 10 children) so I was wanting things up and out of the way. I guess I should mention we have low ceilings (8 ft) as its an older house....the room itself is rather large, but its odd shaped. In wall was what I started looking at but the prices on those made me change my search pattern quickly. Polk had some decent priced one but everything Klipsch seemed to be out of reach.

Provided a budget, there are many here that can offer suggestions to help keep you within budget. Here are a few questions:

1. Is $1000 including receiver and speakers?

Just the speakers.

2. Would you consider buying good quality used equipment?

I wouldn't mind. If you could point me in the right direction, that would be helpful.

As with any new hobby, I'm guessing finding the right vendors online is key. I've stuck to Amazon and Newegg so far just because thats where I've done most of my shopping.

3. Would your wife be open to a bookshelf speaker over a sattelite speaker?

Oh, I'm not sure and shes asleep atm. The dimensions on the bookshelf seem even bigger, no? I can try to find some spots for them. I think I'd definately need something mounted from the ceiling in the rear and possible sides (if I went 7.1) due to there not being much wall to even hang a shelf from.

4. Are you going to purchase a sub? Highly recommend one.

Yeah...I was saving that for last cause I was under the impression it wasn't as important. I guess it's part of my budget as well, but I was hoping to conveniently "forget" about it until I had all the surround speakers....stretch the budget a bit.

Can you post pictures here? I've done some of the planning for the remodeling in sketchup and you can see the shape the room will be in.

The tv is a little off scale. The two black boxes next to it was me just brainstorming on where to put the the B-3s. The room is 18.5 ft from the base of the fireplace to the tv and 20 ft side to side.

Thanks for the help so far!

[Youthman]

Polk had some decent priced one but everything Klipsch seemed to be out of reach.

I recently had a nice Polk setup but once I switched to Klipsch, I really prefer the horn sound to the soft dome tweeter of the Polks.

As with any new hobby, I'm guessing finding the right vendors online is key.

$1000 budget for speakers is a descent buget, definitely puts you above a HTIB budget so that's good. The fact you are open to used is great too cause there are tons of deals out there.

Are you familiar with Craigslist.com and searchtempest.com? Searchtempest.com will allow you to search within a given mile radius from your zip code. Just type Klipsch and hit search. If you see something you like, post it here and we'll help you determine if it is a good buy or not. Myself and many others have found lots of great deals on HT gear.

Oh, I'm not sure and shes asleep atm.

Well wake her up! This is important!!!! LOL. J/K.

Yeah...I was saving that for last cause I was under the impression it wasn't as important.

On the contrar my friend. The sub for HT is just under the importance of the center channel. It's that important. I think it's even important for 2 channel listening as well. Just adds depth to your music that front speakers cannot provide, even if they have 10", 12" or 15" woofers in them.

Post what location you are and zip code. I'll help you look later tonight when I get home. We're here to help. Ask all the questions you want.

[stink]

Yeah, I've used Craigslist before, but my part of the country usually doesn't provide the greatest results. Odessa, TX is my goto on craigslist and from the looks of it, speakers are no different. 79760

Dallas has a pretty wide selection, but thats a 6 hour drive.

[willland]

Stink,

Welcome to the forum.

As Michael(youthman) pointed out in so many words, with a room that size, a little cube or satellite system will not immerse you in surround sound bliss. One good thing is that you have low ceilings. Would your wife consider a bookshelf speaker/subwoofer combo if you could incorporate some kind of swing-arm stands that retract out from your false wall where your TV sits? When it's movie time, swing those babies out from there pockets in the wall and slide back in when your done. This way they will be out of reach when the kids are playing and they will disappear to satisfy the WAF. Mount the center channel in a pocket/cubby just above the TV.

I know this idea seems a little too creative but if you have not built anything yet it might be something to consider. Michael knows about being creative with his surround brackets. Matching quality used gear will better keep you within budget. Post your general location so we(your friendly forum brothers/sisters) can start helping you locate something that will fit the bill.

Bill

[stink]

Thanks for jumping in, Bill.

I'm near Midland/Odessa, TX.

We haven't built anything yet. So far, de-construction (more like destruction) is all we've done. The wall where the TV is mounted in the picture I posted is already there but it extends all the way down to the side wall (the window doesn't exist, yet). I'd knock down that entire wall, but for some reason the previous tenants relocated the breaker box into that giant, massive closet when they added onto the house. Moving the breaker box again really isn't something I want to do.

Speaking of that, though.....if you're standing in the living room, looking at where the tv is in the picture, the breaker box is on the otherside of that wall on the righthand side (so right behind the far right side of the tv). Do you think this will present a problem? I know electricity can mess with audio/video signals, but I don't know if it will have an effect on an LCD or LED tv or what distance I need to keep everything from that mass bundle of wires. I plan on placing all the electronics in that closet and using the bluetooth capabilities of my remote to control everything (logitech harmony).

[willland]

I am not equipped to answer your question about the breaker box interference issue. But I found a great setup that will easily fit in your budget and fill your room with good sound.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/543645744/klipsch-b3

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/548208218/klipsch-c3

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/548465376/klipsch-synergy-s1

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/540349076/klipsch-ksw10http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/548465376/klipsch-synergy-s1'>

Grand total:$728.64 shipped/no sales tax/mfr's warranty. Vann's has a great online reputation. No affiliation with Vann's

Bill

[stink]

Awesome, thanks Bill.

Would this sub be a good complement to those? This would put me right at budget too.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/540349076/klipsch-ksw10

The wife is still resisting pretty heavily on the larger speakers but I think the HTIB is out, I've convinced her of that. Shes pushing for architectural speakers, now.

"I don't want those big, ugly black boxes hanging from my ceiling" she says. I don't think they're that ugly, myself.

I made a mock up using the dimensions of the S-1 out of paper and hung it off the wall to see what she thinks when she gets back home.

[willland]

Sorry about that, I double linked the S1's. The KSW10 is the link I meant to post.

That total price is with the pair of bookshelves, center, surrounds, and subwoofer.

Bill

[Youthman]

Wow, you weren't kidding. No Klipsch within 200 miles of you. Not cool. You might have to look at an online retailer like Vanns or if you are patient, you can slowly build your system (which is what many of us here have done). I'm still working on completing my system and I'm going on 2 years. To me, part of the thrill is the journey you take to obtain your dream system. It's great searching, finding great deals, paying cash and meeting great folks. The end goal isn't always to "complete" our system.

[stink]

Yeah, it can be a pain out here.

Let me ask this, would using a C-3 for the center with a pair of B-3's for the front speakers combined with the quintets for the side, rear and sub be a decent compromise between size and sound power? Maybe even replace the quintet sub with the KSW-10. I could always use the center from the quintet in another room.

[willland]

Let me ask this, would using a C-3 for the center with a pair of B-3's for the front speakers combined with the quintets for the side, rear and sub be a decent compromise between size and sound power?

Yes that would work. Though the QIII's satellites are not the ideal speaker with that setup, the surrounds are not near as important as your front soundstage. I have the RSX-4's as surrounds which are the Reference version of the Quintet III's and they work just fine for now. I will upgrade in the near future.

Bill

[Youthman]

I have the RSX-4's as surrounds which are the Reference version of the Quintet III's and they work just fine for now. I will upgrade in the near future.

Prime example of why it's a good idea to get the matching rears that go with your front speakers. Eventually down the road....you will be upgrading. []

[stink]

*sigh*

The B-3's don't sit well with her, at the moment. She really wants a discreet set up in this room and is reminding me that we're planning to convert a single car garage into a theater down the road (hopefully similar to yours, youthman ) in which I can put all the giant speakers that I want into. Soooooooooo, how do you guys feel about in-wall and in-ceiling setups?

When I first started, my idea was to put 4 speakers in the corners of the room so she could rearrange as she wanted (she is constantly moving furniture around) and all I had to do was change what speakers plugged in where to change the setup. It looks like the room is going to be pretty static, now, though...so I think the architectural route may be plausible. Plus, if she is demanding them, she can't fight me too hard on the price.

There is an R5 In Wall System on ebay...can't find it on the Klipsch site and the RCW-5 speakers it has have been discontinued.

Other than that, any recommendations on in wall?

Probably for the front and center channel. In-ceiling for the rear.....I'm not sure on side.

Sorry if I'm being a pain and thanks again.

[Youthman]

I'm not advocating bribery here but it surely doesn't hurt to take care of the misses. I often let my wife pick up some goodies for the house or for herself so that when it comes to me wanting a new toy, I usually don't get any grief.

It's funny, my wife was the one that actually suggested we have a dedicated theater room when we built our house. I was like, "You're kidding me right?" She was actually thinking more about her than she was about me. LOL She figured with a dedicated HT, my speakers would be out of site and not in the living room like they have since we have been married.

Converting a garage to a HT is a great idea. There are lots of guys that have done that (check out www.avsforum.com) in the Construction Thread. Be sure to check out the Show Me Thread too for a lot of great ideas.

Soooooooooo, how do you guys feel about in-wall and in-ceiling setups?

Once again...with convenience comes sacrifice. If you must go with inwalls/inceilings, I would highly suggest inwalls for at least the front speakers. I went to a parade of homes and a local AV company had done the theater install and they used 5 inceiling speakers. There is something weird about hearing your front stage coming down from the ceiling instead of coming from the front wall. It's just not natural. Rear surrounds might be less of an issue.

[InVeNtOr]

after looking at the pic of your living room, this is my advice.

i feel you will be better off with a 2.1. your living room has almost no place for surrounds. especally if you want them up and out of the way. none of them will be equal to the other. (meaing the left surround is the same distance from you as the right surround). i just set a friends HT with just 2 RB-61's and a sub. it sounded great. now of course you don't get the "surround" effect but it still sounded good.

here's the issue with surrounds most people don't do or don't mention. they have to be placed just right. ask Youth, right now his rears are too high and he's not getting much of a "surround" effect out of them. i personally had mine set up where i was simply raising and lowering them 6". believe it or not, doing that made them almost sound like they turned on and off. surrounds need to be placed just so. do most people do that, no, but it's important. same goes for a sub. i am guilty of this. most people just plop it in a corner and be done. a friend of mine took 3 months to actually place his sub. it takes a lot of time and equipement. i forgot what he used but it's no easy task. i am sure the sub junkies cringe when ever they hear people just put them in a corner and forget about them.

if you are dead set on surrounds, then i would suggest a ceiling mount of some kind. the issue with doing that, it never sounds as good as it can when then are set up right.

if you go 2.1 you can spend more on 2 main speakers and a really nice sub. that combo plus a good receiver will yeild better results than cheaper all around equipement and surrounds hung from a ceiling. that of course is my opinion. here's a bonus, if you go 2.1 you can buy a much cheaper receiver because you don't need a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver type. a simple stereo with hdmi will sound good and work just as good, since you won't have the extra speakers. on the other hand you can so the 2.1 set up first, buy a good 5.1 or 7.1 receiver and see how you like it. the guy i did his HT loved the sound and doesn't want to add "clutter" to his living room.

in the end it's up to you and your wallet. good luck with your choice, and above all, enjoy it!

WELCOME TO THE MADNESS!

[Youthman]

ask Youth, right now his rears are too high and he's not getting much of a "surround" effect out of them.

Yep, I had to have a custom mount made for me to have my surrounds properly placed. With the new surrounds, they sound great.

same goes for a sub. i am guilty of this. most people just plop it in a corner and be done.

What is this....pick on youthman day? [] Guilty as charged. I probably should do the "crawl" but I guess I'm afraid I'll find out that the sub needs to go somewhere that I would rather not have it located.

[stink]

I'm not advocating bribery here but it surely doesn't hurt to take care of the misses. I often let my wife pick up some goodies for the house or for herself so that when it comes to me wanting a new toy, I usually don't get any grief.

It's funny, my wife was the one that actually suggested we have a dedicated theater room when we built our house. I was like, "You're kidding me right?" She was actually thinking more about her than she was about me. LOL She figured with a dedicated HT, my speakers would be out of site and not in the living room like they have since we have been married.

Converting a garage to a HT is a great idea. There are lots of guys that have done that (check out www.avsforum.com) in the Construction Thread. Be sure to check out the Show Me Thread too for a lot of great ideas.

Soooooooooo, how do you guys feel about in-wall and in-ceiling setups?

Once again...with convenience comes sacrifice. If you must go with inwalls/inceilings, I would highly suggest inwalls for at least the front speakers. I went to a parade of homes and a local AV company had done the theater install and they used 5 inceiling speakers. There is something weird about hearing your front stage coming down from the ceiling instead of coming from the front wall. It's just not natural. Rear surrounds might be less of an issue.

Oh, nice resource. Thanks again!

I'll have to measure it when I get home. Its quite a small room and I hope it will work. The wife has been on me for a couple years now about converting the garage...I think she just decided on a theater since she knew that would be the best chance to get me off the couch to do it. Motivation plays an important part.

Yeah, if I did in ceiling, it would only be for the rear. If I do in-wall, I'll probably just drop to 5.1 instead of 7.1 because there is no where to put the sides...unless I also did ceiling and that just doesn't compute in my head.

So, in your opinion, from best to worst, would it be :

Centers/Bookshelves/Surrounds

Architectural

HTIB

?

after looking at the pic of your living room, this is my advice.

i feel you will be better off with a 2.1. your living room has almost no place for surrounds. especally if you want them up and out of the way. none of them will be equal to the other. (meaing the left surround is the same distance from you as the right surround). i just set a friends HT with just 2 RB-61's and a sub. it sounded great. now of course you don't get the "surround" effect but it still sounded good.

here's the issue with surrounds most people don't do or don't mention. they have to be placed just right. ask Youth, right now his rears are too high and he's not getting much of a "surround" effect out of them. i personally had mine set up where i was simply raising and lowering them 6". believe it or not, doing that made them almost sound like they turned on and off. surrounds need to be placed just so. do most people do that, no, but it's important. same goes for a sub. i am guilty of this. most people just plop it in a corner and be done. a friend of mine took 3 months to actually place his sub. it takes a lot of time and equipement. i forgot what he used but it's no easy task. i am sure the sub junkies cringe when ever they hear people just put them in a corner and forget about them.

if you are dead set on surrounds, then i would suggest a ceiling mount of some kind. the issue with doing that, it never sounds as good as it can when then are set up right.

if you go 2.1 you can spend more on 2 main speakers and a really nice sub. that combo plus a good receiver will yeild better results than cheaper all around equipement and surrounds hung from a ceiling. that of course is my opinion. here's a bonus, if you go 2.1 you can buy a much cheaper receiver because you don't need a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver type. a simple stereo with hdmi will sound good and work just as good, since you won't have the extra speakers. on the other hand you can so the 2.1 set up first, buy a good 5.1 or 7.1 receiver and see how you like it. the guy i did his HT loved the sound and doesn't want to add "clutter" to his living room.

in the end it's up to you and your wallet. good luck with your choice, and above all, enjoy it!

WELCOME TO THE MADNESS!

Oh, you just opened up a whole new can of worms...as if it wasn't confusing enough! haha

Thanks for the welcome.

I'll have to look into it when I get to the house. Slavedrivers are keeping us worker bees relatively busy today.